how do you talk to a Trump voter ...

Nice of you to say, Tom.  Thanks.  Of course there are also times when I'm a prick too...

Tom_Reingold said:

@jeffl, you are always a mensch.

lord_pabulum said:

ml1 said:

if you say so.  

I thought it was only liberals who were smug toward those they disagree with?

lord_pabulum said:

The title of this thread should be 'how do you talk to a grown up ... '

You and the 5th graders on this thread suggest that I either voted for Trump or am a supporter.  I don't consider this grown up discourse. 

So is that derogatory in 2017?  

hmmm

tjohn said:


It's no use trying to explain this to the intolerant, dogmatic Drummerboy.  He is too busy preaching to listen to reason.

ml1 said:

so these conservatives are getting a sad because liberals are upset at them for voting for a malignant clown as president?  the same conservatives who've been calling us "libtards," "snowflakes," and "moonbats" for the past two decades?  Just because we are against bigotry and stupid wars?

Those people aren't reachable through dialogue.  I'll repeat it again.  Liberal success is going to be a result of winning over new voters, not changing the minds of people who are outraged by our values.

agree with this.   

@tjohn I don't really think any Trump voter is going to be swayed by logic or reasoning to vote for progressive values.   These folks are voting on religious grounds, with Republicanism being the religion.   They are not reachable.

hoops said:

ml1 said:

so these conservatives are getting a sad because liberals are upset at them for voting for a malignant clown as president?  the same conservatives who've been calling us "libtards," "snowflakes," and "moonbats" for the past two decades?  Just because we are against bigotry and stupid wars?

Those people aren't reachable through dialogue.  I'll repeat it again.  Liberal success is going to be a result of winning over new voters, not changing the minds of people who are outraged by our values.

agree with this.   

@tjohn I don't really think any Trump voter is going to be swayed by logic or reasoning to vote for progressive values.   These folks are voting on religious grounds, with Republicanism being the religion.   They are not reachable.

That's fine reasoning if you think that Trump voters are some homogenous group.  But they aren't.  And I would gladly take back 5% of Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

again, sir, for thye umpteenth time, you offer no suggestions on how to talk to these wayward voters.

here's an example of the communication problem.

Trump says: "we're gonna bring back coal jobs"

an obvious lie. he promises something that simply can't and won't be done.

Hillary talks to them like an adult based in reality, but it takes a couple of paragraphs, because you know, complexity. I highlighted the line that got all of the publicity from this comment.

Look, we have serious economic problems in
many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right.  Instead of
dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let's reunite around policies
that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor
communities.

So for example, I'm the only
candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity
using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're
going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business,
right?

And we're going to make it clear
that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those
mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to
turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we've got to move away from coal
and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the
people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied
on.

But there were people who chose Trump anyway. Explain to us how to get those folks to embrace reality.

tjohn said:

hoops said:

ml1 said:

so these conservatives are getting a sad because liberals are upset at them for voting for a malignant clown as president?  the same conservatives who've been calling us "libtards," "snowflakes," and "moonbats" for the past two decades?  Just because we are against bigotry and stupid wars?

Those people aren't reachable through dialogue.  I'll repeat it again.  Liberal success is going to be a result of winning over new voters, not changing the minds of people who are outraged by our values.

agree with this.   

@tjohn I don't really think any Trump voter is going to be swayed by logic or reasoning to vote for progressive values.   These folks are voting on religious grounds, with Republicanism being the religion.   They are not reachable.

That's fine reasoning if you think that Trump voters are some homogenous group.  But they aren't.  And I would gladly take back 5% of Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

I have to agree with Drummerboy.

Sadly, simple one line sound bites work so well on Trump voters. It was really and easily evident before the election that Trump is a con artist. His whole history has shown that to anyone bothering to even look a little. Yet, they swallowed all the lies he fed them.

The right wing takes Clinton's coal quote out of context, even changing the one sentence they quote. So, we see Trump voters fed the definitive statement "Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right". No question mark. 

When you try to talk to them, to explain you're accused of spreading Fake News. You may as well talk to a wall.

Let me be more clear Drummerboy.  I am suggesting that you don't speak to them in your usual condescending, elitist tone.  That's all.  And talk about Democratic offerings.  That's all.  And don't talk to rural groups, for example, about BLM and LGBTQ rights.  That's all.  I'm not suggesting that anybody turn their backs on BLM or LGBTQ rights.  Just focus on items that are most important to particular groups of voters.  If it an economically depressed area, we can guess that the concern is jobs.  And don't talk about taking away gun rights.  It just upsets people and it isn't going to happen absent a grass roots movement on the scale of the prohibition drive.

With regard to Trump, the only hope is that he won't be able to deliver on his ******** and that some of his supporters will realize that they have been duped.

BG9 said:

I have to agree with Drummerboy.

Sadly, simple one line sound bites work so well on Trump voters. It was really and easily evident before the election that Trump is a con artist. His whole history has shown that to anyone bothering to even look a little. Yet, they swallowed all the lies he fed them.

The right wing takes Clinton's coal quote out of context, even changing the one sentence they quote. So, we see Trump voters fed the definitive statement "Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right". No question mark. 

When you try to talk to them, to explain you're accused of spreading Fake News. You may as well talk to a wall.

Right.  Intelligent people on MOL never go for anything absent the full context.

tjohn said:

Let me be more clear Drummerboy.  I am suggesting that you don't speak to them in your usual condescending, elitist tone.  That's all.  And talk about Democratic offerings.  That's all.  And don't talk to rural groups, for example, about BLM and LGBTQ rights.  

How will we ever end racism and anti-LGBTQ prejudice if we do not talk to everyone about it? If our politicians were really leaders they would talk to rural whites about the plight of the urban poor and talk to urban blacks about the rural poor. Their problems are really the same and they are in the same boat. 

The 1% at the top use racism and other forms of prejudice to divide the 99% against each other. That is how the ruling classes have always retained their power.

How about this. Instead of telling people in Appalachia that we are going to bring back the miserable jobs they used to have how about telling them that we are going to make a College Education free or afordable so their kids and grandkids don't have to be coal miners?

It's a sad, sad state of affairs that people long to go back into a coal mine. We've done something severely wrong here.

LOST said:

How about this. Instead of telling people in Appalachia that we are going to bring back the miserable jobs they used to have how about telling them that we are going to make a College Education free or afordable so their kids and grandkids don't have to be coal miners?

There is something to this unmoving stance on coal mining that I have seen too. At times I wonder it has more to do with these particular folks not wanting to have a major life change, like learning a new trade, or having to travel, more so than the obvious benefits, such as the Hillary mentioned renewable energy. For some people tradition is the engine of which every aspect of their lives revolve. I was a coal miner, my father was a coal miner, my father's father was a coal miner, and so on.

The college education part is a good idea. What better way to assuage the fears of change than through free or affordable education.

drummerboy said:

It's a sad, sad state of affairs that people long to go back into a coal mine. We've done something severely wrong here.

LOST said:

How about this. Instead of telling people in Appalachia that we are going to bring back the miserable jobs they used to have how about telling them that we are going to make a College Education free or afordable so their kids and grandkids don't have to be coal miners?

CompassRose said:

There is something to this unmoving stance on coal mining that I have seen too. At times I wonder it has more to do with these particular folks not wanting to have a major life change, like learning a new trade, or having to travel, more so than the obvious benefits, such as the Hillary mentioned renewable energy. For some people tradition is the engine of which every aspect of their lives revolve. I was a coal miner, my father was a coal miner, my father's father was a coal miner, and so on.

The college education part is a good idea. What better way to assuage the fears of change than through free or affordable education.

drummerboy said:

It's a sad, sad state of affairs that people long to go back into a coal mine. We've done something severely wrong here.

LOST said:

How about this. Instead of telling people in Appalachia that we are going to bring back the miserable jobs they used to have how about telling them that we are going to make a College Education free or afordable so their kids and grandkids don't have to be coal miners?

I've worked 30-plus years in an industry that has allowed me to make a good living, but advances in technology are a constant threat to the livelihoods of people who do what I do. I get that the advances have obvious benefits. If someone attributed my efforts to save my job to a crippling attachment to tradition, however, or blamed me for not wanting a major life change in my 50s, or thought vague promises of free college for my child and grandchildren would make it all better while I worried about how I'd raise them until then and hold on to my house, I might, to quote someone in another thread, "get a little pleasure from hearing they had been punched."

Exactly and better stated than my weak effort.

DaveSchmidt said:

CompassRose said:

There is something to this unmoving stance on coal mining that I have seen too. At times I wonder it has more to do with these particular folks not wanting to have a major life change, like learning a new trade, or having to travel, more so than the obvious benefits, such as the Hillary mentioned renewable energy. For some people tradition is the engine of which every aspect of their lives revolve. I was a coal miner, my father was a coal miner, my father's father was a coal miner, and so on.

The college education part is a good idea. What better way to assuage the fears of change than through free or affordable education.

drummerboy said:

It's a sad, sad state of affairs that people long to go back into a coal mine. We've done something severely wrong here.

LOST said:

How about this. Instead of telling people in Appalachia that we are going to bring back the miserable jobs they used to have how about telling them that we are going to make a College Education free or afordable so their kids and grandkids don't have to be coal miners?

I've worked 30-plus years in an industry that has allowed me to make a good living, but advances in technology are a constant threat to the livelihoods of people who do what I do. I get that the advances have obvious benefits. If someone attributed my efforts to save my job to a crippling attachment to tradition, however, or blamed me for not wanting a major life change in my 50s, or thought vague promises of free college for my child and grandchildren would make it all better while I worried about how I'd raise them until then and hold on to my house, I might, to quote someone in another thread, "get a little pleasure from hearing they had been punched."

+10

DaveSchmidt said:

I've worked 30-plus years in an industry that has allowed me to make a good living, but advances in technology are a constant threat to the livelihoods of people who do what I do. I get that the advances have obvious benefits. If someone attributed my efforts to save my job to a crippling attachment to tradition, however, or blamed me for not wanting a major life change in my 50s, or thought vague promises of free college for my child and grandchildren would make it all better while I worried about how I'd raise them until then and hold on to my house, I might, to quote someone in another thread, "get a little pleasure from hearing they had been punched."

We were discussing coal mining, a particularly strenuous, dangerous and unhealthy job. My father worked at a job that afforded him a good living and his principal goal in life and that of my mother and my friends' parents were to make sure their children did not have to work at the same jobs as theirs. The children of factory workers, civli servants and shop keepers became doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers.

LOST said:

DaveSchmidt said:

I've worked 30-plus years in an industry that has allowed me to make a good living, but advances in technology are a constant threat to the livelihoods of people who do what I do. I get that the advances have obvious benefits. If someone attributed my efforts to save my job to a crippling attachment to tradition, however, or blamed me for not wanting a major life change in my 50s, or thought vague promises of free college for my child and grandchildren would make it all better while I worried about how I'd raise them until then and hold on to my house, I might, to quote someone in another thread, "get a little pleasure from hearing they had been punched."

We were discussing coal mining, a particularly strenuous, dangerous and unhealthy job. My father worked at a job that afforded him a good living and his principal goal in life and that of my mother and my friends' parents were to make sure their children did not have to work at the same jobs as theirs. The children of factory workers, civli servants and shop keepers became doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers.

My grandfather told his children that they could do any job they wanted EXCEPT for coal mining. However, in the case of good-paying manufacturing jobs and mining, it seems more common for children to follow in the footsteps of their parents.

LOST said:

We were discussing coal mining, a particularly strenuous, dangerous and unhealthy job. My father worked at a job that afforded him a good living and his principal goal in life and that of my mother and my friends' parents were to make sure their children did not have to work at the same jobs as theirs. The children of factory workers, civli servants and shop keepers became doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers.

I can't speak for your father, your mother, your friends' parents or coal miners. I just know that whatever my hopes for my son and his children are, and however aware of my job's bleak future I may be, I wouldn't take too kindly to someone's telling me that I could do better if only I weren't a slave to tradition or too stubborn to rewire my life, or that the magic college carrot he's dangling will do the trick while I'm trying to make a living here and now.

I think there's a difference between older people (50+, say) being reluctant about moving on and younger people doing so. And I don't think anyone is really criticizing older workers for this.

DaveSchmidt said:

LOST said:

We were discussing coal mining, a particularly strenuous, dangerous and unhealthy job. My father worked at a job that afforded him a good living and his principal goal in life and that of my mother and my friends' parents were to make sure their children did not have to work at the same jobs as theirs. The children of factory workers, civli servants and shop keepers became doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers.

I can't speak for your father, your mother, your friends' parents or coal miners. I just know that whatever my hopes for my son and his children are, and however aware of my job's bleak future I may be, I wouldn't take too kindly to someone's telling me that I could do better if only I weren't a slave to tradition or too stubborn to rewire my life, or that the magic college carrot he's dangling will do the trick while I'm trying to make a living here and now.

drummerboy said:

I think there's a difference between older people (50+, say) being reluctant about moving on and younger people doing so. And I don't think anyone is really criticizing older workers for this.

With at least one exception: How they voted.

what about voting?

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

I think there's a difference between older people (50+, say) being reluctant about moving on and younger people doing so. And I don't think anyone is really criticizing older workers for this.

With at least one exception: How they voted.

I think someone may have really criticized older workers for being reluctant to move on if it influenced their vote.

You two are polar opposites.

So I am going to go in a different direction here. I work in a very conservative company with many Republicans, some of whom voted for Trump, some of whom just sat it out and some of whom voted for someone else, not specified whom. My observations:

1. Some people just voted for "change" thinking they'd get someone who was not a politician and every eight years or so, we change up government and they saw Trump as an example, perhaps an extreme example, of this.

2. People who get most of their interest from Rush, Mark Levin - they are the reasonable ones on this list - or InfoWars and Breitbart. One woman I work with said she was really relieved that Hillary wasn't elected because the Clintons have killed at least 100 people. (Google it - from Vince Foster to people in plane crashes). Then they are also the conspiracy theorists such as false flags actions, ex. Sandy Hook, oh you get the idea. BTW, if someone says they are a ditto-head, smile and walk away.

3. People who project their situation, and unhappiness, and think Trump could solve this. This isn't unusual, once a woman asked Pres Carter about a broken traffic light. I have to say the range of things that were going to be solved varied and sometimes was very sad. A therapist who was really angry that her husband walked out on her and left her with a special needs child and is often late paying alimony (I pointed out that nearly all marriage, divorce laws are state level). Another person explained that we wouldn't have layoffs at work due to outsourcing etc. Some things were supported by Trump statements and others were just what they wanted to happen.

4. Americans love rich people. They admire them. Trump is rich by anyone's standards, even if not quite worth the billions he says, and people think he must be smart or effective if he is rich. And there is some sense, especially for men, that he can do whatever he wants because he is Donald Trump and they admire this.

5. Racists, a label without nuance, or those who are really really uncomfortable with Blacks, Muslims, and even women in positions of power or even just equals. (BTW the corporation I work for is incredibly diversity.) They think that Obama just did things for Blacks. Some believe he is Kenyan. And Trump gave off a clearly racist vibe that those looking for it picked it up and figured he was their boy. What they didn't think was is Trump was against "their" interests. All these cuts were to be about Blacks, not them. It was about otherness.

In answer to the original question, based on the story below, the likes of which I am seeing more and more, I have no idea how to talk to a Trump voter. Just don't insult them. That's the only idea I have right now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-my-husband-is-being-deported-friday-193439132.html

What if a fair description sounds like an insult? It's pretty hard to objectively report something like this without making the people involved seem stupid

tjohn said:

In answer to the original question, based on the story below, the likes of which I am seeing more and more, I have no idea how to talk to a Trump voter. Just don't insult them. That's the only idea I have right now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-my-husband-is-being-deported-friday-193439132.html

I agree with this comment. Just stating the facts (he registered, he's not a criminal, he checked in as he was supposed to do) is considered insulting to some people. My general comment is that those with an aversion to facts express outrage when given facts.

ml1 said:

What if a fair description sounds like an insult? It's pretty hard to objectively report something like this without making the people involved seem stupid

tjohn said:

In answer to the original question, based on the story below, the likes of which I am seeing more and more, I have no idea how to talk to a Trump voter. Just don't insult them. That's the only idea I have right now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-my-husband-is-being-deported-friday-193439132.html

Regardless of what you say, or how you say it, at some point you have to bring up the fact, however tactfully, that the voter made a horrible, horrible decision.

People don't really like to hear that.

South_Mountaineer said:

I agree with this comment. Just stating the facts (he registered, he's not a criminal, he checked in as he was supposed to do) is considered insulting to some people. My general comment is that those with an aversion to facts express outrage when given facts.

ml1 said:

What if a fair description sounds like an insult? It's pretty hard to objectively report something like this without making the people involved seem stupid

tjohn said:

In answer to the original question, based on the story below, the likes of which I am seeing more and more, I have no idea how to talk to a Trump voter. Just don't insult them. That's the only idea I have right now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-my-husband-is-being-deported-friday-193439132.html

DB, I don't think we need to bring it up. When it comes down to it, only the individual can decide if they have made a horrible decision or not. I think a better use of words might be to talk to those voters tactfully about actions they can take now with non-DJT voters, simple small steps such as becoming a member of the ACLU or other important organizations.

drummerboy said:

Regardless of what you say, or how you say it, at some point you have to bring up the fact, however tactfully, that the voter made a horrible, horrible decision.

People don't really like to hear that.

South_Mountaineer said:

I agree with this comment. Just stating the facts (he registered, he's not a criminal, he checked in as he was supposed to do) is considered insulting to some people. My general comment is that those with an aversion to facts express outrage when given facts.

ml1 said:

What if a fair description sounds like an insult? It's pretty hard to objectively report something like this without making the people involved seem stupid

tjohn said:

In answer to the original question, based on the story below, the likes of which I am seeing more and more, I have no idea how to talk to a Trump voter. Just don't insult them. That's the only idea I have right now.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-supporter-my-husband-is-being-deported-friday-193439132.html