Houseguests marriage is dissolving

Interesting thread, seems running about 70/30 dovish/hawkish.

I'm in the latter camp. Couple more observations beyond what's already been said:

1. Regarding a 'teaching moment' -- yes it can be but it can also be a teaching moment in how not to be a doormat and not have to walk on eggshells in your own house due to inconsiderate guests.
2. This is a *vacation house* we're talking about here, it's not a matter of the guests being displaced from their own home for some reason and having nowhere else to go except some awful motel or something. In that case I'd be 100% dovish. I'm guessing the guests have a comfortable home of their own with plentiful food and soft bedding, but they need to have their cake and eat it too, i.e. stay the course in the 1930s beach house. That strikes me as majorly inconsiderate.

Student_Council said:

Interesting thread, seems running about 70/30 dovish/hawkish.

I'm in the latter camp. Couple more observations beyond what's already been said:

1. Regarding a 'teaching moment' -- yes it can be but it can also be a teaching moment in how not to be a doormat and not have to walk on eggshells in your own house due to inconsiderate guests.
2. This is a *vacation house* we're talking about here, it's not a matter of the guests being displaced from their own home for some reason and having nowhere else to go except some awful motel or something. In that case I'd be 100% dovish. I'm guessing the guests have a comfortable home of their own with plentiful food and soft bedding, but they need to have their cake and eat it too, i.e. stay the course in the 1930s beach house. That strikes me as majorly inconsiderate.

^ Yes ^

bella said:

I'm sorry, but KMK's family should be more important than her friends. If this is detrimental to her family, the warring couple gets asked to leave. It's not that she shouldn't be a good friend, it's that it's more important for her to be a good parent.

^ Yes ^

I agree, @kibbegirl et al.

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior simply because two friends are in an utterly self-absorbed rough patch. I can understand how someone can get so mired in their own crap that they don't see the forest for the trees, they're to be treated with kid gloves and left alone until it's all over and they leave of their own accord? Really? Boggles my mind.

ctrzaska said:

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior simply because two friends are in an utterly self-absorbed rough patch. I can understand how someone can get so mired in their own crap that they don't see the forest for the trees, they're to be treated with kid gloves and left alone until it's all over and they leave of their own accord? Really? Boggles my mind.

ctrzaska said:

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior simply because two friends are in an utterly self-absorbed rough patch. I can understand how someone can get so mired in their own crap that they don't see the forest for the trees, they're to be treated with kid gloves and left alone until it's all over and they leave of their own accord? Really? Boggles my mind.

^ Perfect!!! ^ And I guess those of us who don't feel this way (and many of us don't) are quietly being chastised for being bad friends. No, it's BECAUSE you're my friend I'm going to have to ask you to leave BECAUSE I love my kids and my husband and don't want this around us right now.

Yeah, I love my friends; I love my family, but it shouldn't be their problem that my marriage is bad (or vice versa). One or the other can go sleep on the couch and creep back to bed before anyone gets up.

Also, it's VACATION.

kibbegirl said:

ctrzaska said:

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior simply because two friends are in an utterly self-absorbed rough patch. I can understand how someone can get so mired in their own crap that they don't see the forest for the trees, they're to be treated with kid gloves and left alone until it's all over and they leave of their own accord? Really? Boggles my mind.

^ Perfect!!! ^ And I guess those of us who don't feel this way (and many of us don't) are quietly being chastised for being bad friends. No, it's BECAUSE you're my friend I'm going to have to ask you to leave BECAUSE I love my kids and my husband and don't want this around us right now.

You got that feeling too? Good friends are precious. Make them, nurture them and treat them with respect and you will have them for life. Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

boomie said:

Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

If kmk feels that her friends are doing this, then by all means kick them out. I got a different impression.

Yea, I just went off on the general idea. Not talking specifically about kmk's sitch.

ParticleMan said:

boomie said:

Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

If kmk feels that her friends are doing this, then by all means kick them out. I got a different impression.

Agreed, I too did not get that impression. FWIW, just because these friends might be "taking" now does not mean that they have never been the "givers" in the past or will be in the future. Again, this post has made me ever more appreciative of my good friends and the unconditional support that I know they would give me. Being your lesser-than-nice-self happens sometimes; real friends understand and support you anyway.

As annoying as this situation must be for kmk and her family, I don't think that keeping their friends up at the vacation house for a few days, despite their relationship problems, will be an irreparable detriment to her family's happiness. I'm sort of surprised at how extreme some of the reactions to this situation are. Am I the only one who grew up having a few bad vacations? I agree this situation is really truly unfortunate for everyone involved, but the notion that her family's utter happiness is at stake seems a bit extreme to me.

Tiger, you are NOT the only one who has had some very bad vacations. I also am a bit puzzled at the extreme reactions, but I guess the answer to that is we are all interpreting the situation in our own ways. Some of us are picturing it quite differently than others, based on our own experiences.

Anyway, KMK has already settled this, and the guests have moved on, and everyone has more food for thought.

oakland2 said:

ParticleMan said:

boomie said:

Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

If kmk feels that her friends are doing this, then by all means kick them out. I got a different impression.

Agreed, I too did not get that impression. FWIW, just because these friends might be "taking" now does not mean that they have never been the "givers" in the past or will be in the future. Again, this post has made me ever more appreciative of my good friends and the unconditional support that I know they would give me. Being your lesser-than-nice-self happens sometimes; real friends understand and support you anyway.

^^This.^^ I have friends who have been in terrible moods or been snappish when there were in bad places; BUT they have also listened to me snarl and mope. And some friends who are couples have not always behaved perfectly in front of us; and we have not always behaved beautifully in front of them.

It needs to be a two-way street if it's a real friendship. It's not going to be sunshine and daisies all the time, but if you are real friends, they will put up with you as much as you put up with them.

If KMK's situation was all one-sided, then I'd agree with taking them aside and letting them know the behavior is making your family deeply uncomfortable. Hopefully, that will either change the behavior or encourage them to go. But as I said above, KMK's situation is surely resolved by now, so we are talking hypotheticals at this point.

Agree completely Peggy.

ParticleMan said:

boomie said:

Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

If kmk feels that her friends are doing this, then by all means kick them out. I got a different impression.

Me too.

From what I read, I assumed the couple were long time friends with a history who happened to be going though a rough patch at a very inconvenient time, etc. I did not pick up that this people were "toxic friends" who abused KMK (and others) regularly and were knowingly being inconsiderate a$$holes.

PeggyC said:

oakland2 said:

ParticleMan said:

boomie said:

Treat them like sh*t, stomp all over their good will and take take take without offering a thing in return and you don't deserve that friendship.

If kmk feels that her friends are doing this, then by all means kick them out. I got a different impression.

Agreed, I too did not get that impression. FWIW, just because these friends might be "taking" now does not mean that they have never been the "givers" in the past or will be in the future. Again, this post has made me ever more appreciative of my good friends and the unconditional support that I know they would give me. Being your lesser-than-nice-self happens sometimes; real friends understand and support you anyway.

^^This.^^ I have friends who have been in terrible moods or been snappish when there were in bad places; BUT they have also listened to me snarl and mope. And some friends who are couples have not always behaved perfectly in front of us; and we have not always behaved beautifully in front of them.

It needs to be a two-way street if it's a real friendship. It's not going to be sunshine and daisies all the time, but if you are real friends, they will put up with you as much as you put up with them.

If KMK's situation was all one-sided, then I'd agree with taking them aside and letting them know the behavior is making your family deeply uncomfortable. Hopefully, that will either change the behavior or encourage them to go. But as I said above, KMK's situation is surely resolved by now, so we are talking hypotheticals at this point.

Yes Peggy!

Understanding and give/take must go both ways. I also think open and honest communication is key. If you are upset or bothered about something, you should have a chat. In this case, KMK asking her friend how things are going would be appropriate IMHO. I don't think her guests are aware that their angst is visible and audible.

How could they not be aware of this?

Student_Council said:

How could they not be aware of this?

Have you ever gone through a divorce or the period leading up to the decision to divorce? It can be all-consuming, devastating in a way that kind of renders you unable to see outside yourself and the misery of what's going on. Unless you are very, very lucky. I wasn't.

I imagine they were aware they were make enough noise that they could be heard, but were hoping everyone else in the house was asleep and wouldn't wake up. AND they probably didn't realize how poor the sound insulation was. But maybe I'm giving them too much benefit of the doubt.

PeggyC said:

Student_Council said:

How could they not be aware of this?

Have you ever gone through a divorce or the period leading up to the decision to divorce? It can be all-consuming, devastating in a way that kind of renders you unable to see outside yourself and the misery of what's going on. Unless you are very, very lucky. I wasn't.

I imagine they were aware they were make enough noise that they could be heard, but were hoping everyone else in the house was asleep and wouldn't wake up. AND they probably didn't realize how poor the sound insulation was. But maybe I'm giving them too much benefit of the doubt.

The staying up late to fight I can see giving a pass to short term. Flinging insults at people because the don't want to snap at their spouse in front of others, not so much.

PeggyC said:

Student_Council said:

How could they not be aware of this?

Have you ever gone through a divorce or the period leading up to the decision to divorce? It can be all-consuming, devastating in a way that kind of renders you unable to see outside yourself and the misery of what's going on. Unless you are very, very lucky. I wasn't.

I imagine they were aware they were make enough noise that they could be heard, but were hoping everyone else in the house was asleep and wouldn't wake up. AND they probably didn't realize how poor the sound insulation was. But maybe I'm giving them too much benefit of the doubt.

I haven't had that experience, but I have had my share of tough times that were all-consuming and devastating in their own way. I couldn't see myself vacationing at a friend's beach house while in the teeth of such a situation, and if I was I believe, or at least I'd like to believe, I'd still have been able to recognize my own toxicity and exit stage left.
As has been noted on here, this is all an academic exercise at this point, but it's an interesting case study/debate on human behavior.

Well, true... they would be hard-pressed not to realize they are taking shots at others. I hope they are not always like that, or they won't have ANY friends.

ctrzaska said:

how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior

kibbegirl said:

quietly being chastised for being bad friends

PeggyC said:

extreme reactions

Admittedly, I've been reading this discussion only sporadically, but did I miss something?

DaveSchmidt said:

ctrzaska said:

how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior

kibbegirl said:

quietly being chastised for being bad friends

PeggyC said:

extreme reactions

Admittedly, I've been reading this discussion only sporadically, but did I miss something?

Yes, the guests started being nasty to others in the house. And some of us are considered extreme for suggesting that guests who can't behave in a civil fashion be asked to leave. (Appatently some people think that you have to be a human doormat to be friend.)

Thanks for catching me up. The "you're extreme" and "we're doormats" comments slipped past me.

bella said:

DaveSchmidt said:

ctrzaska said:

how anyone defends the complete lack of consideration and subsequent outwardly nasty behavior

kibbegirl said:

quietly being chastised for being bad friends

PeggyC said:

extreme reactions

Admittedly, I've been reading this discussion only sporadically, but did I miss something?

Yes, the guests started being nasty to others in the house. And some of us are considered extreme for suggesting that guests who can't behave in a civil fashion be asked to leave. (Appatently some people think that you have to be a human doormat to be friend.)

Being nasty to your hosts and/or other guests is certainly not acceptable. I don't think anyone said as much. I know I did not in the least. It's the other comments about inconvenience, tossing good friends out, toxic relationships, etc that got me. Yowza...

Those of is who suggested that the guest be asked to leave, or to act in a way that wouldn't ruin the vacation for everyone else were told that a true friend would never do that and that out reaction is extreme. (Whereas I think that letting "friends" do this to you on your family vacation makes you a human doormat.)

But my view is informed by having been a doormat for a former friend