Hillary was right
gerritn said:
nan said:So Obama passed, against enormous pushback from GOP, a healthcare plan that greatly expanded coverage. GOP wanted to kill it ever since, and have at a minimum damaged it. And now this fool blames Obama for lack of healthcare coverage. Ah, yeah, sure.
Here is another view on the futility of "voting for Hillary." Remember the New York Times article that interviewed people who had voted for Obama twice and then stayed home or wrote in Bernie and they don't regret it?
The fool in question was telling people to vote for Jill Stein. He's trying to justify himself.
It's 2018. Anyone trying to argue that it's terrific that Secretary Clinton wasn't elected is either a Trumper or an idiot. It's my understanding that Jimmy Dore is not a Trumper.
nan said:
How's that voter shaming thing going? Is that all you got?
It's not voter shaming. I was discussing people who, today, still don't get it.
nohero said:
nan said:It's not voter shaming. I was discussing people who, today, still don't get it.
How's that voter shaming thing going? Is that all you got?
You are saying that people have to vote for the person you have chosen and if they don't they are not right in the brain. That's voter shaming 101. Guilty as charged.
nan said:
nohero said:You are saying that people have to vote for the person you have chosen and if they don't they are not right in the brain. That's voter shaming 101. Guilty as charged.
nan said:It's not voter shaming. I was discussing people who, today, still don't get it.
How's that voter shaming thing going? Is that all you got?
Actually, that's not what I wrote.
If you're for Trump and what he's doing, I understand why you're happy Secretary Clinton lost.
If you're not for Trump and what he's doing, and you're STILL happy Secretary Clinton lost, I question your thought processes. If there's a good reason why that's incorrect, happy to hear it.
nohero said:
nan said:Actually, that's not what I wrote.
nohero said:You are saying that people have to vote for the person you have chosen and if they don't they are not right in the brain. That's voter shaming 101. Guilty as charged.
nan said:It's not voter shaming. I was discussing people who, today, still don't get it.
How's that voter shaming thing going? Is that all you got?
If you're for Trump and what he's doing, I understand why you're happy Secretary Clinton lost.
If you're not for Trump and what he's doing, and you're STILL happy Secretary Clinton lost, I question your thought processes. If there's a good reason why that's incorrect, happy to hear it.
I'm not happy Clinton lost. But, I understand why that happened and I don't think denying there was any wrongdoing at the DNC and voter shaming is going to help Hillary 2.0 win in 2020. People are losing interest in the Democrats. For example the friend that got me to vote for Hillary in 2016 by calling me all the time and reminding me about what was at stake is now thinking of voting 3rd party going forward. She's disgusted with how the Democrats refused to change after the lost. She's disgusted with corrupt politicians who do the bidding of donors over what people want. She sees how that is just going to put us on a road to another Trump elected. This is a person who you would assume would just automatically pull the lever for Democrats. She's not alone.
You are not even willing to admit that there was corruption in the DNC during the primary. You are taking the view that the establishment Democrats are good candidates with good platforms and adding on voter shaming and well, good luck with that cause that was the approach in 2020 and we all know what happened there. Might want to try something new. Just a suggestion.
nan said:
For example the friend that got me to vote for Hillary in 2016 by calling me all the time and reminding me about what was at stake is now thinking of voting 3rd party going forward. She's disgusted with how the Democrats refused to change after the lost. She's disgusted with corrupt politicians who do the bidding of donors over what people want. She sees how that is just going to put us on a road to another Trump elected.
That's an example of a thought process I don't understand. If enough potential Democratic voters decide to vote third party or stay home, it's not that we'll get another Trump, it's that we'll get more Trump.
nan said:You are not even willing to admit that there was corruption in the DNC during the primary. You are taking the view that the establishment Democrats are good candidates with good platforms and adding on voter shaming and well, good luck with that cause that was the approach in 2020 and we all know what happened there. Might want to try something new. Just a suggestion.
I'm willing to read whatever people want to list as "corruption in the DNC during the primary". So far what's been listed doesn't amount to much, compared with the simple truth that more Democrats voted for the eventual nominee.
And if you're telling me that even what you call "establishment Democrats" wouldn't be better than the utter disaster we have now, that's another thought process I don't understand.
nohero said:
nan said:You are not even willing to admit that there was corruption in the DNC during the primary. You are taking the view that the establishment Democrats are good candidates with good platforms and adding on voter shaming and well, good luck with that cause that was the approach in 2020 and we all know what happened there. Might want to try something new. Just a suggestion.I'm willing to read whatever people want to list as "corruption in the DNC during the primary". So far what's been listed doesn't amount to much, compared with the simple truth that more Democrats voted for the eventual nominee.
And if you're telling me that even what you call "establishment Democrats" wouldn't be better than the utter disaster we have now, that's another thought process I don't understand.
Yup, and here we go again. Good luck with the voter shaming! It's making me want to vote 3rd party more than ever, but keep it up!!!!!
Sometimes idiots need to be called idiots, because they're too stupid to realize it for themselves. It's the nature of idiocy.
drummerboy said:
Sometimes idiots need to be called idiots, because they're too stupid to realize it for themselves. It's the nature of idiocy.
Sometimes if you want someone to do something, you don't call them idiots.
nan said:
nohero said:Yup, and here we go again. Good luck with the voter shaming! It's making me want to vote 3rd party more than ever, but keep it up!!!!!
nan said:You are not even willing to admit that there was corruption in the DNC during the primary. You are taking the view that the establishment Democrats are good candidates with good platforms and adding on voter shaming and well, good luck with that cause that was the approach in 2020 and we all know what happened there. Might want to try something new. Just a suggestion.I'm willing to read whatever people want to list as "corruption in the DNC during the primary". So far what's been listed doesn't amount to much, compared with the simple truth that more Democrats voted for the eventual nominee.
And if you're telling me that even what you call "establishment Democrats" wouldn't be better than the utter disaster we have now, that's another thought process I don't understand.
Please do.
nan said:
Does not look good for 2020.
Because of people like you. Enjoy what you may reap.
nan said:
BG9 said:Right, keep blaming the people with no money or power. Again.
nan said:Because of people like you. Enjoy what you may reap.
Does not look good for 2020.
I'm also blaming Hillary. She made serious mistakes.
And I blame Sanders, especially. Clinton had a highly favorable rating as Senator and Sec of State.
Much of the garbage thrown at her by conservatives and Republicans did not get anywhere with those who are not conservatives, that is, until Sanders, the so-called progressive undermined her by validating the lies of the deplorables. That cost Clinton resources and lost her votes.
When it was apparent he was losing the primaries and finally lost, he grudgingly supported Clinton. Compare that to when Clinton lost to Obama where she threw herself whole heartedly into supporting him.
Sanders mouths the right words, impressing many. But I consider him to be a bit like Trump, a narcissist who's all about himself.
Its my ardent desire Sanders not be around in 2020 to screw things up. He wants the Democratic party nomination while having shown nothing but contempt for the party and its members. For when you have contempt for an organization you really have contempt for the members of such.
nan said:
drummerboy said:Sometimes if you want someone to do something, you don't call them idiots.
Sometimes idiots need to be called idiots, because they're too stupid to realize it for themselves. It's the nature of idiocy.
You know what, we played that game for a year. We tried to understand, we tried to be sympathetic but I, for one, am done. A bunch of f$?!ing morons voted the worlds’ biggest a$$hole to the Presidency if the United States. Whomever did so and still cares about being shamed or who is still justifying their choice should be far worse than shamed. They are complicit in what is happening to our country.
what kind of idiot says “it makes me want to vote a 3rd party” without any knowledge of who is running for office?
nan said:
drummerboy said:Sometimes if you want someone to do something, you don't call them idiots.
Sometimes idiots need to be called idiots, because they're too stupid to realize it for themselves. It's the nature of idiocy.
I expect nothing from idiots. I certainly don't expect to be able to change their minds by talking reasonably to them.
I'm not sure why anyone does, actually.
Why do you think that we're somehow dependent on the votes of idiots?
Here, watch this video (it's short) and then show us the carefully crafted reasonable message that will convince them to vote for your guy. Especially that first woman. She's a keeper.
Sorry I clicked on the link. Some people are just plain stupid.
BG9 said:
nan said:I'm also blaming Hillary. She made serious mistakes.
BG9 said:Right, keep blaming the people with no money or power. Again.
nan said:Because of people like you. Enjoy what you may reap.
Does not look good for 2020.
And I blame Sanders, especially. Clinton had a highly favorable rating as Senator and Sec of State.
Much of the garbage thrown at her by conservatives and Republicans did not get anywhere with those who are not conservatives, that is, until Sanders, the so-called progressive undermined her by validating the lies of the deplorables. That cost Clinton resources and lost her votes.
When it was apparent he was losing the primaries and finally lost, he grudgingly supported Clinton. Compare that to when Clinton lost to Obama where she threw herself whole heartedly into supporting him.
Sanders mouths the right words, impressing many. But I consider him to be a bit like Trump, a narcissist who's all about himself.
Its my ardent desire Sanders not be around in 2020 to screw things up. He wants the Democratic party nomination while having shown nothing but contempt for the party and its members. For when you have contempt for an organization you really have contempt for the members of such.
Just all factually wrong. Clinton stayed in the race with Obama long after people said she should give up. Sanders did enthusiastically help Clinton. He got blamed for not doing this by her in her book. She blamed everyone but herself. All of these points you are making were made up and sold by Clinton and her team. This is just not the case. In fact, the real problem was that Bernie and his team tried desperately to help Clinton campaign more on important states and policy items and she just friggin' ignored him (https://www.thedailybeast.com/team-bernie-hillary-fcking-ignored-us-in-swing-states).
Sanders is the best hope for the Democrats in 2020. His message of a platform for people, not corrupted by corporate money and influence is what people want, including Republicans. He has no contempt for Democrats as he is a social Democrat, like FDR. He wants the Democrats to go back to their roots and support working people again. In the last 30 years the Democrats have moved right towards the Republicans and have abandoned the working class in favor of big business and Wall Street. Read the book "Listen, Liberal!" by Thomas Frank. We all should have contempt for politicians who pretend to be for the people and then do the will of their donors instead. That's called corruption and it's the reason we have the greatest wealth inequality since before the Guilded Age. And that's why we also have Trump, not because of racism or Russia.
conandrob240 said:
what kind of idiot says “it makes me want to vote a 3rd party” without any knowledge of who is running for office?
Because I have closely watched the DNC since the last election and they have not changed and are planning on using the same loosing strategy again in 2020. Same with the voter shaming people on MOL, who ignore the DNC and just dump on voters. Makes me want to throw up watching this nightmare with my eyes forced open.
nan said:
conandrob240 said:Because I have closely watched the DNC since the last election and they have not changed and are planning on using the same loosing strategy again in 2020. Same with the voter shaming people on MOL, who ignore the DNC and just dump on voters. Makes me want to throw up watching this nightmare with my eyes forced open.
what kind of idiot says “it makes me want to vote a 3rd party” without any knowledge of who is running for office?
A periodic swig of immodiom goes a long way. As to those who attempt to shame others on MOL for exercising their right of free speech and to vote their minds .........there are still those who worship Baal.
No matter who wins the Dem primary, the choice will be between protecting or overturning a woman's right to chose, assuming it will not be too late.
Wages, college tuition and health care can all be altered each election.
SCOTUS is for decades.
Even Republicans will have to make that choice.
With over 70% of Americans supporting Roe v Wade, the choice will be about the courts and no Republican candidate will have the courage to take a pro choice stand.
That's the message I would chose.
Re the Democratic primary.............I think there is reason to have hope
I think they learned their lesson last time.
A free and open primary is the first step to restore Democracy
I think we will have a mix of the old and the new vying for the nomination
Legacy candidates don't work............although some are still running a pity party
nan said:
BG9 said:Just all factually wrong. Clinton stayed in the race with Obama long after people said she should give up.
When it was apparent he was losing the primaries and finally lost, he grudgingly supported Clinton. Compare that to when Clinton lost to Obama where she threw herself whole heartedly into supporting him.
Sanders mouths the right words, impressing many. But I consider him to be a bit like Trump, a narcissist who's all about himself.
Its my ardent desire Sanders not be around in 2020 to screw things up. He wants the Democratic party nomination while having shown nothing but contempt for the party and its members. For when you have contempt for an organization you really have contempt for the members of such.
I strongly disagree with Ms. Nan's assertion and excuse for Bernie.
in 2008, then-Senator Clinton stayed in the race through the last of the primaries. When the primaries were over, and everyone knew how many delegates each candidate had, she didn't keep her campaign alive. She didn't play "cute" like Bernie up to the convention. She gave a nationally-televised concession speech, in a venue she booked for that purpose - about 2 months before the convention. I remember it well, because I watched it live with my then-19 year old daughter. I could tell she was a little disappointed that in her first Presidential election vote she would not be able to vote for a woman. However, she and countless other Hillary voters didn't act like the Bernie Bros did in 2016.
Bernie Bro behavior can be summarized by an anecdote that Mr. Surovell shared on this message board on July 26, 2016 -
Two Bernie supporters were selected by MSNBC for interviews after Bernie's speech. Both of them said that despite Bernie's plea, they did not know if they were voting for Hillary. Interestingly, both made the same point:
"It's on her. I need to hear from Hillary herself that she will work to achieve the progressive goals of the Democratic Platform. I haven't heard that from her yet."
Valid point.
Absolutely not a valid point. Whoever those two clowns were, what they got if they opposed the Democratic nominee is what we expected and what we're seeing today.
So no more trying to say Bernie acted just like Hillary. It's not only wrong, but it's kind of offensive to equate the behavior of the two.
Clinton Refuses to Concede the Nomination: Earlier she said she would consider VP role to help the Democrats win.
06/04/2008
The Long Road to a Clinton Exit
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/politics/08recon.html
She even used Robert F. Kennedy's assassination as a reason she should stay in the race so long.
nan said:
Clinton Refuses to Concede the Nomination: Earlier she said she would consider VP role to help the Democrats win.
06/04/2008
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24953561/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-refuses-concede-nomination/#.W1yMzaczq3A
The Long Road to a Clinton Exit
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/politics/08recon.html
She even used Robert F. Kennedy's assassination as a reason she should stay in the race so long.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24796393/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-regrets-rfk-assassination-remark/#.W1yOwqczq3A
Nothing in what you posted contradicts my post. If you're trying to say those items cancel out the fact of her nationally-televised concession and unconditional support for Obama, that's a ridiculous claim.
You're confusing staying in through the last primary (what Hillary did) with stretching it out long after the last delegate was selected (Bernie and his Bros).
nohero said:
nan said:Nothing in what you posted contradicts my post. If you're trying to say those items cancel out the fact of her nationally-televised concession and unconditional support for Obama, that's a ridiculous claim.
Clinton Refuses to Concede the Nomination: Earlier she said she would consider VP role to help the Democrats win.
06/04/2008
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24953561/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-refuses-concede-nomination/#.W1yMzaczq3A
The Long Road to a Clinton Exit
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/politics/08recon.html
She even used Robert F. Kennedy's assassination as a reason she should stay in the race so long.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24796393/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-regrets-rfk-assassination-remark/#.W1yOwqczq3A
You're confusing staying in through the last primary (what Hillary did) with stretching it out long after the last delegate was selected (Bernie and his Bros).
She still overstayed her welcome in 2008 and basically said it was OK to do that so she is still a hypocrite. She tried to screw Bernie out of the nomination and he knew it but said nothing. He made his concession speech at the convention because that is what he had promised his supporters he would do, and he worked his butt off trying to keep Trump out of the White House. He also wanted to have leverage over the platform which was very important. His people tried and tried to get the Clinton campaign to pay attention to the working voters in key states, but were ignored and told to basically shove it. Then Clinton writes a book and blames Bernie for not working enough on her behalf. Really horrible woman. I've lost all respect for her. She is why we have Trump now, not because of Russia. If you read the book, Shattered, you see how they use Russia as a cover.
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sorry, but you clearly have no knowledge of the details of the how water lead levels were affected in Flint.