LOST said:

basil said:
How do you know I am not an 800 pound russian sitting on his couch while working for Putin?

 You could still be a fan.
Of course since you, or more probably your screen character, just joined the day before yesterday, who knows?

 I believe Basil is a troll and actually an alter ego of another poster. His style is way too familiar.

It’s a free country — thank God!

mtierney said:

LOST said:

basil said:
How do you know I am not an 800 pound russian sitting on his couch while working for Putin?

 You could still be a fan.
Of course since you, or more probably your screen character, just joined the day before yesterday, who knows?

 I believe Basil is a troll and actually an alter ego of another poster. His style is way too familiar.
It’s a free country — thank God!

Do you actually know what the definition of a troll is? (hint: it is not someone who is posting liberal message on a liberal message board). A troll would be if I posted all this stuff on the GOP message board, or if someone like yourself would post on MOL.

But anyway, onwards to other great news. From Russia with love for Donald: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/21/world/europe/russia-trump-foreign-policy.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

It's got some great quotes too!

“Trump is God’s gift that keeps on giving,” said Vladimir Frolov, a Russian columnist and foreign affairs analyst. “Trump implements Russia’s negative agenda by default, undermining the U.S.–led world order, U.S. alliances, U.S. credibility as a partner and an ally. All of this on his own. Russia can just relax and watch and root for Trump, which Putin does at every TV appearance.”

or how about this one:

“Once again we see a president who appears to be acting impulsively and erratically — except when it comes to Russia,” said Leslie Vinjamuri, professor of international relations at SOAS University of London. “Here, Trump has been eerily consistent in his willingness to adopt policies that enable Russia’s strategy while undermining ours.”

I know we have not always been very positive on trump, but at least he's got some admirers elsewhere. Must make him feel better.

Forget about charities and other worthy causes. Go fund a mythical wall proposed by a lunatic grifter who is probably thinking of ways to use that money for gilding more chandeliers at Mar a Lago. Forget the hundreds of lawsuits over property rights that will stall the wall until forever. Forget the fact that most illegal drugs (which we happily scarf up) will continue to feed our hunger as they pass through ports, not terrestrial borders. Amputees spending their money on fantasy? Sad. Really sad. One more reason to despise Trump.

____________________________________________________

Crowdfunding donations have paid for medical and legal bills, wildfire losses and college tuition. Now, a GoFundMe campaign aims to finance one the most hotly debated issues in American politics: President Trump’s long-promised border wall.

The campaign, called “We The People Will Fund The Wall” and launched this week by a disabled Florida veteran, had raised more than $13 million from more than 213,000 people by Friday afternoon. The goal? $1 billion.

“Americans are putting their money where their mouth is,” the campaign’s founder, Brian Kolfage, said in an interview Friday. “They’re willing to put money down to show politicians this is what they want.”

Mr. Kolfage — a triple amputee who served in Iraq and who ran a right-wing website that was eventually removed by Facebook — is hoping to raise even greater sums to cover construction of a barrier between the United States and Mexico. He suggested on the GoFundMe page that if the 63 million people who voted for Mr. Trump were to each donate $80, they would raise more than $5 billion, the amount Mr. Trump is seeking for the wall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/21/us/gofundme-wall-border-border-mexico.html

GL2 said:
 He suggested on the GoFundMe page that if the 63 million people who voted for Mr. Trump were to each donate $80, they would raise more than $5 billion, the amount Mr. Trump is seeking for the wall.

 If.

tom said:

GL2 said:
 He suggested on the GoFundMe page that if the 63 million people who voted for Mr. Trump were to each donate $80, they would raise more than $5 billion, the amount Mr. Trump is seeking for the wall.

 If.

If this works, or even contributes some minimal substantial amount, it will be an interesting twist. Can this really be used to fund government initiatives? What other projects could be addressed this way? What happens to the tax base then? It would mess with the current taxation system and budget setting process. Probably end up starving it. 

Would it change power structures?  Donation routes? Regardless, it will add chaos and more loopholes.

It's a fantasy, as is the wall. Most of the GOP knows this but they continue their cowardly humoring of Trump and followers who can't see past this simplistic notion of securing the border. Many talking heads realize that DJT loves the idea of the wall, not the reality.

What's most pathetic is the probability that many contributors have needs that that money could satisfy, rather than throwing it away on a ridiculous cause.

GL2 said:

What's most pathetic is the probability that many contributors have needs that that money could satisfy, rather than throwing it away on a ridiculous cause.

Money is always thrown by cause supporters, both right and left wing. Jill Stein comes to mind.

I think the difference might be demographics. I'm guessing Stein fans might have more disposable income.

What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

LOST said:
What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

So if Trump offers Schumer a deal: fund the wall and I will get rid of the $10k cap on property taxes (SALT) and I will fund 50% of the Gateway tunnel, will he take it?

(it's a hypothetical of course, but this is how trump thinks)

LOST said:
What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

Haven't you heard? It's going to come from the added revenue Mexico sends us in Trump's new not-NAFTA deal.

basil said:

LOST said:
What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

So if Trump offers Schumer a deal: fund the wall and I will get rid of the $10k cap on property taxes (SALT) and I will fund 50% of the Gateway tunnel, will he take it?
(it's a hypothetical of course, but this is how trump thinks)

Yeah, he needs concrete (excuse the pun) things in order to understand. You give me this and I'll give you that. But I don't think Schumer can agree to a New York deal. 

basil said:

LOST said:
What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

So if Trump offers Schumer a deal: fund the wall and I will get rid of the $10k cap on property taxes (SALT) and I will fund 50% of the Gateway tunnel, will he take it?
(it's a hypothetical of course, but this is how trump thinks)

 I do not know how he thinks or whether he thinks but if I were Schumer I'd take the deal. After all given all the logistics the Wall will never be built.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-wall-impossible-build-architects-2017-1basil

LOST said:

basil said:

LOST said:
What % of those who contribute expect to eventually get a refund from the Mexican Government?

So if Trump offers Schumer a deal: fund the wall and I will get rid of the $10k cap on property taxes (SALT) and I will fund 50% of the Gateway tunnel, will he take it?
(it's a hypothetical of course, but this is how trump thinks)

 I do not know how he thinks or whether he thinks but if I were Schumer I'd take the deal. After all given all the logistics the Wall will never be built.





Even for 25 Billion.




https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-wall-impossible-build-architects-2017-1basil

I would agree with that, but I think this fight is not about the wall anymore, it is about Trump keeping his base (and therefore any chance of re-election). If his base starts to walk away he is toast, and he knows that very well (and 'toast' very well may include serving real prison time after he leaves the WH).

What if he offers Schumer to resign as President in return for the Wall and no prison time?

I think this satirical headline (Borowitz) says it all about the need for a wall:

Nation with Crumbling Bridges and Roads Excited to Build Giant Wall

GL2 said:
I think the difference might be demographics. I'm guessing Stein fans might have more disposable income.

 I know a number of dirt poor Stein supporters. She is very big amongst the displaced natives of the Bay Area.

Thanks. Didn't know that. On that point, here's an amazing figure...

SAN FRANCISCO -- New figures from the federal government find that in parts of the Bay Area, some people who bring in a six-figure income can be considered “low-income,” CBS SF Bay Area reports. 

___________________________________

Meanwhile, in other low-income news, I think this letter (nyt, 12/24) says quite a bit about the rural/city divide:

Editor:

Let’s not gloss over the role that rural voters have played in their own demise. By being in blind thrall to backward-thinking right-wing Republican politics, rural communities have for years rejected the conditions that attract the high-tech new economy. Highly educated, highly skilled workers typically value cultural diversity over insularism; they value well-funded schools and libraries over mindless tax cuts; they value the rights and contributions of women and immigrants; they believe that science is not a liberal conspiracy.

The new economy includes the wide-open green energy industry, which rural-state politicians have demonized. And rural voters have largely hurt their pocketbooks by buying into the vilification of unions.

Rather than complaining about being left behind by the “elites,” rural residents might want to look at why it is that new-economy companies flock to big cities and progressive states, and bring their values in line with what will be needed to compete in the global economy.

Shel Khipple

Wilmette, Ill.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/23/opinion/letters/small-town-america.html

basil said:

What if he offers Schumer to resign as President in return for the Wall and no prison time?

 I think he would make that offer with the addition that he gets the Contract to build the Wall (and Schumer and the Dems agree to not complain about cost overruns). 

And Schumer's counter can be OK, if you take Pence with you.

"Why is it like this?" Trump reportedly asked his aides.

President Donald Trump praises himself as "doing great" but also complains that "it's war every day" in the White House.

Trump lashes out against his foes, some who were previously his friends, and laments that they have betrayed him, The New York Times reported on Saturday, after having interviewed about 30 current and former administration officials, congressional aides, lawmakers, Trump allies and friends.

"Can you believe this?" Trump reportedly said as he read through headlines. "I'm doing great, but it's a war every day."

The president is consumed by various investigations surrounding him that have seen the fall of his former lawyer Michael Cohen, campaign manager Paul Manafort, former national security adviser Michael Flynn and his family foundation.

"Why is it like this?" Trump reportedly asked his aides. Trump is said to agree with the response that the news media has not treated him fairly and that journalists are upset he won the election and are trying to prove he is wrong.

Trump has reportedly called his aides "freaking idiots!" and sometimes even worse. He apparently has also become increasingly frustrated with his advisers, and scowls at them in meetings.

The president's growing agitation with his inner circle comes as he faces more challenges. The government is in a partial shutdown since Trump said he would not back down from his demand for border wall funding. His major bragging points are the economy and stock market, which has taken a huge dip owed in large part to his trade decisions, and the consequent uncertainty.

continues at newsweek.com

Its all about what is left over after you pay the rent on your windowless studio apartment.

Today Trump tweeted “AMERICA IS RESPECTED AGAIN!”.

He is dangerously delusional.

GL2 said:
Thanks. Didn't know that. On that point, here's an amazing figure...
SAN FRANCISCO -- New figures from the federal government find that in parts of the Bay Area, some people who bring in a six-figure income can be considered “low-income,” CBS SF Bay Area reports. 
___________________________________


Meanwhile, in other low-income news, I think this letter (nyt, 12/24) says quite a bit about the rural/city divide:


Editor:
Let’s not gloss over the role that rural voters have played in their own demise. By being in blind thrall to backward-thinking right-wing Republican politics, rural communities have for years rejected the conditions that attract the high-tech new economy. Highly educated, highly skilled workers typically value cultural diversity over insularism; they value well-funded schools and libraries over mindless tax cuts; they value the rights and contributions of women and immigrants; they believe that science is not a liberal conspiracy.
The new economy includes the wide-open green energy industry, which rural-state politicians have demonized. And rural voters have largely hurt their pocketbooks by buying into the vilification of unions.
Rather than complaining about being left behind by the “elites,” rural residents might want to look at why it is that new-economy companies flock to big cities and progressive states, and bring their values in line with what will be needed to compete in the global economy.
Shel Khipple
Wilmette, Ill.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/23/opinion/letters/small-town-america.html

 Thought I would paste the letter that came after the one you chose to reference from that same article...

To the Editor:

My wife and I are resettling from our blue-collar suburban house to a farmhouse in rural central Kansas. As an urban liberal, I have witnessed small-town rural Americans get lumped together as “racists” and “deplorables” by my progressive peers for their support of Donald Trump

I have witnessed jokes on TV shows directed at the tradespeople who are an essential spine of the economy where we are resettling. Party platforms call for “free college education,” excluding training in the trades. Editorials write off small-town workers as necessary casualties of progress.

While I believe that rural Americans’ support for Donald Trump is misguided, I also believe that the derogatory labels applied to them are equally misguided. Every social justice movement over the past 50 years has begun with pride. Can our platforms and remedies not hold the same respect for rural Americans that we hold for every other group in our country?

Forest A. Ormes Lyons, Ill

Mtierney, when you were young, were you shocked when people said that Germans were racists just because they happened to be card carrying members of the Nazi party?

If you use your vote to get a known racist who rapes women and brags about it on TV elected President of the United States, you are a deplorable.  That is straight up simple and plain.

Norman, 

Nostalgia doesn't work. If you want to live in a rural outpost, you can't demand that jobs come to you. You have to go where the work is. (excuse the italics. For some reason I can't change them)

The author of the letter must've sealed his financial situation to be able to afford to live in a farmhouse in rural Kansas. Please note that the author didn't  say he needs to earn a living there. And jokes about "yokels" are as old as the hills. It's a classic elitist position. 

What exacerbates the resentment is the notion that there's some way to recreate the past, as Trump has promised, whether it's beautiful coal or bird-killing windmills. And falling for that silliness brought us the disaster that is DJT. So there's a reflexive resentment of Trump voters.

The jokes may be as old as the hills, but imo they're not productive for Democrats, who, again imo, need to address the concerns and worries of working people who have been getting the short end of the stick for several decades now.  And address them clearly and repetitively.

mjc said:
The jokes may be as old as the hills, but imo they're not productive for Democrats, who, again imo, need to address the concerns and worries of working people who have been getting the short end of the stick for several decades now.  And address them clearly and repetitively.

 Agreed.  Furthermore, racial jokes are also as "old as the hills" but I hardly think that translates to defacto social appropriateness.  No, it's illustrative of classic racism and age does not make them acceptable.  Yet, many of the same folks who deride the telling of racial jokes find "yokel" jokes quite laughable.  Wonder why it's the case that some find mocking one demographic group to be intolerable but endorse disparagement of another demographic group?   (I am not accusing GL2 of doing that, by the way)

As for the article, I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that if there are rural Americans who are hoping for a return of mining, factory or other such jobs, they are being unwise. But, there are myriad personal reasons and psycho/social dynamics which underlie that false hope. It isn't mass stupidity. My concern is in the stereotyping of "rural people" as though they are an inferior and  monolithic group, all of whom share the same interests, characteristics, or political beliefs/values.  That - IMHO- is intellectually insipid.  

Norman_Bates said:

mjc said:
The jokes may be as old as the hills, but imo they're not productive for Democrats, who, again imo, need to address the concerns and worries of working people who have been getting the short end of the stick for several decades now.  And address them clearly and repetitively.

 Agreed.  Furthermore, racial jokes are also as "old as the hills" but I hardly think that translates to defacto social appropriateness.  No, it's illustrative of classic racism and age does not make them acceptable.  Yet, many of the same folks who deride the telling of racial jokes find "yokel" jokes quite laughable.  Wonder why it's the case that some find mocking one demographic group to be intolerable but endorse disparagement of another demographic group?   (I am not accusing GL2 of doing that, by the way)
As for the article, I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that if there are rural Americans who are hoping for a return of mining, factory or other such jobs, they are being unwise. But, there are myriad personal reasons and psycho/social dynamics which underlie that false hope. It isn't mass stupidity. My concern is in the stereotyping of "rural people" as though they are an inferior and  monolithic group, all of whom share the same interests, characteristics, or political beliefs/values.  That - IMHO- is intellectually insipid.  
 

 I think the bolded statement is attacking a strawman. No one, if asked, thinks that ALL rural folks are the same.

When we talk about the characteristics of rural people, we are largely basing it on the group behavior of voters. And that's a perfectly valid way of talking about large groups of people. We are talking about the behavior of a majority of an area or a state - and it's that behavior, voting against their interests, which is what's causing problems for themselves, and for the rest of the country.

How else can we talk about this most serious issue? These voters can be shown to be objectively wrong about a large number of the beliefs which drive their votes, and it needs to be dealt with. The fact that the people engaging in these behaviors feel upset because they're being criticized is just too bad, and should not influence those who are doing the criticizing.

 "We are talking about the behavior of a majority of an area or a state - and it's that behavior, voting against their interests, which is what's causing problems for themselves, and for the rest of the country."

Precisely. 

drummerboy said:

 I think the bolded statement is attacking a strawman. No one, if asked, thinks that ALL rural folks are the same.
When we talk about the characteristics of rural people, we are largely basing it on the group behavior of voters. And that's a perfectly valid way of talking about large groups of people. 

That’s a response to “monolothic.” What about “the stereotyping of ‘rural people’ as though they are an inferior group”? Also a strawman?

"Donald Trump, answering phone call from 7-year-old on Christmas Eve: "Are you still a believer in Santa? Because at seven it's marginal, right?"

The evil, 10 year old brother.

rcarter31 said:
"Donald Trump, answering phone call from 7-year-old on Christmas Eve: "Are you still a believer in Santa? Because at seven it's marginal, right?"


The evil, 10 year old brother.

 Coming up on Fox News - Dr. Keith Ablow explains that Santa Claus is a harmful delusion and praises the President for his informed honesty with America's children.