From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey

@FB: as far as I can tell, you have enumerated the following as "rights:"

1. [N]eighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment;

2. [M]unicipal services will have to be sufficient;

3. [W]ater will be clean;

4. [F]ood will be fresh;

5. [C]hildren will be cherished, respected and protected;

6. [H]ave the same access to lines of credit, [and] mortgages;

7. [H]ave the same access to employment and compensation commensurate with their position;

8. [B]e treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon;

9. [F]ree to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty;

10. [W]ill be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government;

11. [The] right to vote will not be withheld; and

12. [W]ill not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.

Please confirm that I have recited your list of "rights" correctly.

flimbro said:

@RealityForAll
LOL. You're working overtime at not understanding. But I'll play along for a few posts.

Are you a cis-gendered white man with property and credit? If so, YOU will know that equality has been achieved when every single American you see and come into contact with every single minute of every single day regardless of nationality, skin color, religion or gender has access to everything you have access to.

They don't have to have what you have and you don't need to have what they have- but they have to have the same access you have- the same opportunities. Their neighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment. Their municipal services will have to be sufficient. Their water will be clean and their food will be fresh. Their children will be cherished, respected and protected. They'll have the same access to lines of credit, mortgages and employment and compensation commensurate with their position. They have to be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon. They'll be free to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty and they will be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government. Their right to vote will not be withheld and they will not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.

You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.

Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?

Sure, go for it.

I just noticed that you referred to those items as "rights" and not rights. If you're uncomfortable with that term feel free too describe them any way you like- characteristics, tenets etc. I am after all trying to answer your question by suggesting a sure fire way for you to recognize 'equality'.

.

RealityForAll said:

@FB: as far as I can tell, you have enumerated the following as "rights:"

1. [N]eighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment;

2. [M]unicipal services will have to be sufficient;

3. [W]ater will be clean;

4. [F]ood will be fresh;

5. [C]hildren will be cherished, respected and protected;

6. [H]ave the same access to lines of credit, [and] mortgages;

7. [H]ave the same access to employment and compensation commensurate with their position;

8. [B]e treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon;

9. [F]ree to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty;

10. [W]ill be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government;

11. [The] right to vote will not be withheld; and

12. [W]ill not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.


\

Thanks RFA. You saved me some trouble. I'd usually do this inline, but I struggle w/ the quotes on this board. Let me enumerate responses below. I hope it's not confusing.

1. Neighborhoods with schools with qualified teachers and equipment- This is not a right. That being said, the system that has been constructed for education is a disaster. This is most acutely felt in poor areas. If I lived in one of these neighborhoods I would demand control of my schools back from the central planners. This is nothing short of a crime. However, we all have a responsibility to ensure our own children are educated. People should be willing to take on great hardships to make this happen. `
2. Municipal Services should be sufficient- Here I would say that people should decentralize if services are not sufficient. If the Federal or State Services are failing you, I support municipalities and communities making it happen for themselves. If this means withholding funds from the states and federal government then so be it.
3. Clean Water- See #2
4. `Fresh Food- I think this is pretty plentiful. Seriously, is this a problem? If it is, how so?
5. Children cherished, respected and protected- It is a parents responsibility to protect, love and provide for their children.
6. Have the same access to lines of credit and mortgages- Access to credit is typically done by underwriters. They will assess risk. This is well established.
7. Same Access and commensurate compensation for their position- I agree in general principle. However, in practice this gets a bit dicey. People should enter into and out of employee contracts of their own free will. This should be true for the employer and the employee
8. Be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon;- 100% agree
9. [F]ree to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty; 100% agree.
10. [W]ill be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government; - 100% agree
11. [The] right to vote will not be withheld;- 100% agree. Once time is served, voting rights should be fully restored
12. [W]ill not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.- I do not think this is a right. While I would disagree with ridicule and I would probably use my free speech to give anyone guilty of this a really hard time, I do not think its a good idea to infringe upon free speech. You do not have the right to not have your feelings hurt.

I think one or perhaps the both of you are confused- or maybe it's me.

I didn't ask either of you for your opinions regarding the validity of any of the things I mentioned. I provided a partial list of things that marginalized Americans do not have access to in an attempt to give RealityForAll an idea of what equality might 'look' like. You in turn suggested that the things I offered as proof of 'equality' were impossible to achieve because no legislation could be created to ensure their emergence. This was intriguing because they all exist in some way, shape, fashion or form for some Americans. So, my question to you was:

'What legislation gave you those rights?'

You haven't answered that question, so I'll do it for you.

The point you seem to be missing is that as members of a favored community, (and yes, I'm assuming since I only know you by how you present here) one that benefits from the status quo you have access to and an expectation of all of those things I mentioned by law or birthright.

The reason you think fresh food 'is pretty plentiful' is because you have a choice of supermarkets to choose from and the wherewithal to afford to travel to those stores to fill your cart. Next grocery run grab your list and take a field trip to the Bravo on Scotland near Central or the all night Shop Rite in East Orange. Try to find any dairy item with an expiration date further away than eight or nine days. Grab a couple pounds of hamburger and press your finger down hard on the cellophane wrapping- is the resulting blood red or dark brown? Find a bright green, crisp head of lettuce- take a picture, it's rare. Go check out the fish or the grapes or the vegetables. Compare them to what you typically buy and prepare for your family.

The majority of your points read like you have no idea of how the rest of the world works. I don't know if that's sad or just misinformed.

Some quick notes and/or clarifications:

#1 See Title VI of the CR Act of 1964. Locally you can also research the DOE mandate to SOMA schools re access.

#3 See Flint, Louisiana multiple cities, Philly etc

#5. Obviously parents should love their children. The dilemma comes in when they leave the house and fall prey to overzealous law enforcement, teachers and administrators that criminalize their missteps and a judicial system all to eager to separate them from society.

#6 Redlining - read up on it

#7 Take a poll - ask women if they make as much as men for the same work. see EEOC

#11 I was referring to states re establishing 'legal' impediments to voting supported by the Supreme Court's dismantling of the VRA. See voter disenfranchisement. Stripping former prisoners is only a part of the problem.

#12 The use of the word ridicule is a bad choice, it's confusing- apologies. 'Exclusion' would have been sufficient and it pertains once again to access. see ADA

Hope this helps. You guys should probably get back to poking the lefties with sticks now.

terp said:

And hey, I'm all for protesting.

- 100% agree.

What I don't get is that when these people, who are clearly angry about something, are challenged they literally have nothing to say.

Your problem solved in post above.

I guess what I don't understand is how conservatives and Christians claim to be bullied, oppressed, and victimized --- yet their ideas now dominate or soon will dominate:

• The presidency
• Both houses of Congress
• SCOTUS
• Virtually all of talk radio
• A major cable news network
• Most of the U.S. state houses and governorships
• Countless websites

Not to mention that an extremely pro-military patriotism dominates, as does the assumption of religiousness (especially Christianity) among the population. Let's face it, electing an avowed atheist to office would be virtually impossible in most of the U.S.

So how are conservatives "victims" exactly? Is it because a bunch of liberal arts deans of students ask their faculty and students to be considerate of each other's rights, feelings and differences?

I thought conservatives were made of sterner stuff than to be "victimized" by such things.

FDR's Four Freedoms.

Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

Then there's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, approved by the United States. Whatever you may think of the UN, we signed on to this document.

6. Have the same access to lines of credit and mortgages- Access to credit is typically done by underwriters. They will assess risk. This is well established.

It is certainly not well-established that it is done equally for everyone, because assessment of risk includes arbitrary factors like the racial makeup of a neighborhood. It's easy to find studies -- I won't cherry-pick any here -- that show that minority borrowers end up paying substantially higher interest rates on mortgages. Ditto car loans and small-business loans.

ml1 said:

So how are conservatives "victims" exactly? Is it because a bunch of liberal arts deans of students ask their faculty and students to be considerate of each other's rights, feelings and differences?

In the video interview, the NYU professor says he is considering asking his dean for a safe space office when he returns because "I don't see how I can navigate around my college's actions" and their fallout, which he lists as ostracism, unfriending on Facebook and colleagues who shy away from him. The host takes a time-out from his mockery of the professor's critics to listen in earnest sympathy.

Worth relinking here, perhaps, what I thought was a balanced, informative examination of these issues:

And Campus for All: Diversity, Inclusion, and Freedom of Speech at U.S. Universities

the study you linked to has the answer right in the summary:

While free speech is alive and well on campus, it is not free from threats, and must be vigilantly guarded if its continued strength is to be assured.
While current campus controversies merit attention and there have been some troubling instances of speech curtailed, these do not represent a pervasive “crisis” for free speech on campus.

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

So how are conservatives "victims" exactly? Is it because a bunch of liberal arts deans of students ask their faculty and students to be considerate of each other's rights, feelings and differences?

In the video interview, the NYU professor says he is considering asking his dean for a safe space office when he returns because "I don't see how I can navigate around my college's actions" and their fallout, which he lists as ostracism, unfriending on Facebook and colleagues who shy away from him. The host takes a time-out from his mockery of the professor's critics to listen in earnest sympathy.

Worth relinking here, perhaps, what I thought was a balanced, informative examination of these issues:

And Campus for All: Diversity, Inclusion, and Freedom of Speech at U.S. Universities

I should also add that I'm usually wary of drawing sweeping conclusions based on anecdotes like this. Often these folks aren't being "ostracized" specifically for their opinions, it's because they're obnoxious jerks.

Personally, I've never met anyone who is a friendly, respectful and polite person who was unfriended or ostracized by others due to his/her political beliefs. I'm sure there are instances of that happening, but they're probably very rare.

.

We may want to review some of the original "solutions" of the founding fathers - even that of Lincoln

flimbro said:

Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?

flimbro said: "You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about."

flimbro, I always find your posts way worth reading, but this is just excellent, both funny and measurable, an attainable level of heaven on earth, something to work toward, thanks.

flimbro said:

I think one or perhaps the both of you are confused- or maybe it's me.

I didn't ask either of you for your opinions regarding the validity of any of the things I mentioned. I provided a partial list of things that marginalized Americans do not have access to in an attempt to give RealityForAll an idea of what equality might 'look' like. You in turn suggested that the things I offered as proof of 'equality' were impossible to achieve because no legislation could be created to ensure their emergence. This was intriguing because they all exist in some way, shape, fashion or form for some Americans. So, my question to you was:

'What legislation gave you those rights?'

You haven't answered that question, so I'll do it for you.

The point you seem to be missing is that as members of a favored community, (and yes, I'm assuming since I only know you by how you present here) one that benefits from the status quo you have access to and an expectation of all of those things I mentioned by law or birthright.

The reason you think fresh food 'is pretty plentiful' is because you have a choice of supermarkets to choose from and the wherewithal to afford to travel to those stores to fill your cart. Next grocery run grab your list and take a field trip to the Bravo on Scotland near Central or the all night Shop Rite in East Orange. Try to find any dairy item with an expiration date further away than eight or nine days. Grab a couple pounds of hamburger and press your finger down hard on the cellophane wrapping- is the resulting blood red or dark brown? Find a bright green, crisp head of lettuce- take a picture, it's rare. Go check out the fish or the grapes or the vegetables. Compare them to what you typically buy and prepare for your family.

The majority of your points read like you have no idea of how the rest of the world works. I don't know if that's sad or just misinformed.

Well aren't we all high and mighty. I think this is rather presumptuous. You're stating quite a few problems, and assuming I know nothing about them. If you know how "the rest of the world works", how about offering up some solution?

While I will not complain about my station in life, I will simply comment that you are falling into a trap of taking a very superficial look at the world; saccharine even. You know nothing about me or RFA for that matter. You don't know how we might have struggled to get to our current station, and you know nothing about ways in which we might continue to struggle.

flimbro said:

Some quick notes and/or clarifications:

#1 See Title VI of the CR Act of 1964. Locally you can also research the DOE mandate to SOMA schools re access.

#3 See Flint, Louisiana multiple cities, Philly etc

#5. Obviously parents should love their children. The dilemma comes in when they leave the house and fall prey to overzealous law enforcement, teachers and administrators that criminalize their missteps and a judicial system all to eager to separate them from society.


#6 Redlining - read up on it

#7 Take a poll - ask women if they make as much as men for the same work. see EEOC

#11 I was referring to states re establishing 'legal' impediments to voting supported by the Supreme Court's dismantling of the VRA. See voter disenfranchisement. Stripping former prisoners is only a part of the problem.

#12 The use of the word ridicule is a bad choice, it's confusing- apologies. 'Exclusion' would have been sufficient and it pertains once again to access. see ADA

Hope this helps. You guys should probably get back to poking the lefties with sticks now.

#1 I'm not sure what you are saying here. I think everyone has access to our failing public school system. It's the liberals that get triggered every time anyone has the gall to suggest updating the current system

#3 These places have been ruled by progressives for generations. I'm not sure what you are asking for here. What is your solution?

#5 I agree. I'll tell you what. Start a movement to legalize drugs. I guarantee you that I will support it. I'm your ally here.

#6 A practice started under FDR and the FHA. I think perhaps you should read up on this.

#7 I'm sure many people are not satisfied with their station in life. But, I think maybe you should read up on Inequality. Thomas Sowell has done good work in this area:

#11 Are you claiming voter suppression? If so, where has that occurred?

#12 Again, I'm not sure what the complaint is here. Businesses go to great expense to comply with the ADA. Some even reduce services because it doesn't make sense to continue providing the service and complying w/ the ADA.

I guess I'm sort of missing the point. Are you saying these things make us equal?

It's a shame MOL wasn't around during the suffrage and civil rights movements.

terp said:

I guess I'm sort of missing the point.

Yes. You are and let's just leave it at that.

Thomas Sowell is sometimes a putty headed idiot. The clip you supplied confirms that tendency. He does however have a wonderful quote that may describe our exchange.

"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance"

Yep. He's a logical guy. I'm sure you don't like him.

Unfortunately, your feelings don't have much affect on the facts.

Sorry, the following was a response to comments from yesterday. I should have read the rest of the thread.

RFA,

I am not "alarmed" because of one juror. I pointed it out as an example of the persistence of racism

flimbro said:

Don't be bashful. Jump in. How'd you get them?

It's now how I got anything. Your question was addressed to Terp and I am surprised he has not responded.

As a Libertarian he believes that "Rights" come from God or nature. "Rights" do not come from Government or Laws. All they do is restrict our natural Rights.

"All men are ... endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... To secure these Rights governments are instituted among men..."

I thin I got that language pretty accurately.

Flimbro, I appreciate your attempt to engage with Terp and Reality For All, but clearly they are dug in their beliefs and no amount of reason will change that. Frustrating as it is, these are clearly two people who have an alternate reality of the world than most.

Hahaha said:

Flimbro, I appreciate your attempt to engage with Terp and Reality For All, but clearly they are dug in their beliefs and no amount of reason will change that. Frustrating as it is, these are clearly two people who have an alternate reality of the world than most.

Hahaha

LOST said:

Sorry, the following was a response to comments from yesterday. I should have read the rest of the thread.

RFA,

I am not "alarmed" because of one juror. I pointed it out as an example of the persistence of racism

flimbro said:

Don't be bashful. Jump in. How'd you get them?

It's now how I got anything. Your question was addressed to Terp and I am surprised he has not responded.

As a Libertarian he believes that "Rights" come from God or nature. "Rights" do not come from Government or Laws. All they do is restrict our natural Rights.

"All men are ... endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... To secure these Rights governments are instituted among men..."

I thin I got that language pretty accurately.

Not bad Lost!

Terp and RFA, I appreciate your attempt to engage with MOL (Mundi Ordo Liberales), but clearly they are dug in their beliefs and no amount of reason will change that. Frustrating as it is, there are clearly some people who have an alternate reality of the world than most.

terp,

Thanks.

Is everyone entitled to his own reality? Let's make it simple by focusing one thing:

terp said:

RealityForAll said:

@FB: as far as I can tell, you have enumerated the following as "rights:"


4. [F]ood will be fresh;

Thanks RFA. You saved me some trouble. I'd usually do this inline, but I struggle w/ the quotes on this board. Let me enumerate responses below. I hope it's not confusing.

1. `Fresh Food- I think this is pretty plentiful. Seriously, is this a problem? If it is, how so?

flimbro said:


The reason you think fresh food 'is pretty plentiful' is because you have a choice of supermarkets to choose from and the wherewithal to afford to travel to those stores to fill your cart. Next grocery run grab your list and take a field trip to the Bravo on Scotland near Central or the all night Shop Rite in East Orange. Try to find any dairy item with an expiration date further away than eight or nine days. Grab a couple pounds of hamburger and press your finger down hard on the cellophane wrapping- is the resulting blood red or dark brown? Find a bright green, crisp head of lettuce- take a picture, it's rare. Go check out the fish or the grapes or the vegetables. Compare them to what you typically buy and prepare for your family.

Is there an objective reality? If so, who is factually correct?

Thanks.

As you can see they're hard pressed to generate original ideas that actually support their positions. That's too bad. For a brief moment I thought that RFA was going to respond with something thoughtful. But it turned out to be a ruse that only served to suck poor terp into a conversation that he never really caught on to. Meanwhile, RFA just disappeared.

Its an odd dynamic, some of these posters complain about the makeup of this board and an imbalance of ideas, but when they have the opportunity to actually engage they shrink from the task. The model seems to be post something they hope is outlandish and then repeat that same thought ad infinitum interspersed with corny jibes about "libs" until everybody is worn out.

That's a lot of work for nothing.

Hahaha said:

Flimbro, I appreciate your attempt to engage with Terp and Reality For All, but clearly they are dug in their beliefs and no amount of reason will change that. Frustrating as it is, these are clearly two people who have an alternate reality of the world than most.

Did you just call out RFA and I for shrinking from the task as you shrunk from the task?

terp,

On what basis do you believe that rights are something other than what a society, through it's government, decides to be rights?

Rights are what we say they are. Nothing more. Nothing less. We define them. The only thing we can hope for is that "we" has a sense of what rights should be so they benefit us.

terp said:

Did you just call out RFA and I for shrinking from the task as you shrunk from the task?

I'm right here. Whenever you decide to take the time to read the thread and understand the exchange you jumped into, we'll talk. Until then your playing Robin to RFA's Batman is boring as hell.