From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey
hoops said:
this thread is as dumb as the original article by aptly initialed BS.
LOL. And all that. There is a real dipshit in the WH. Voted in by the duped and the dull witted and the deplorable. And voted in by losing the vote by 2%.
terp said :Yeah. And there lives were going so well thanks to you and those you serve.
Well, thats an interesting sentence. totally wrong, but interesting in its simplicity, accusation and assumption.
RealityForAll said:
Interesting commentary on politics by Ben Shapiro. I think BS focuses too much on celebrities and Hollywood in this article. Instead, I think that a lot of what BS describes in this article can instead be attributed to identity politics.
==========================================================
From: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey (Dreamstime image: Lisa F. Young) by BEN SHAPIRO December 7, 2016 4:00 AM
When all the good civil-right issues have been largely won, go after Christian bakers, celibate nuns, and girls in locker rooms. In the vast tsunami of leftist grief that has washed over the land in the aftermath of Donald Trump’s shocking presidential victory, no flotsam has been as prevalent as Hollywood gliterrati weeping and screaming and gnashing their teeth while donning only the most stylish and expensive sackcloth. Most recently, near-sextuagenarian Madonna lamented, “I was devastated, surprised, in shock. I haven’t really had a good night’s sleep since he has been elected. We’re f***ed.”
Some of the shock of Trump’s victory is surely due to the bubble that exists in Hollywood and New York, the Pauline Kael–esque sense that nobody could have voted for Trump. But some of it also derives from celebrities’ self-assured belief that they have an outsized impact in the world of politics. Clearly that view infused the Clinton campaign: Hillary trotted out Lena Dunham of Girls fame, she of the false rape accusations and gleeful admissions of sexually abusing her sister, on the campaign trail all year long; Clinton advocates such as Elizabeth Banks took time off from producing bad a cappella sequels to film ads; singers and actors all joined to make a difference by producing a glossy version of Rachel Platten’s maddening “Fight Song.”
And not only didn’t those things matter, they actually helped drive voters away from Clinton. They exacerbated the image of Clinton as an out-of-touch elitist who spent her free time hanging out with Katy Perry, even as Donald Trump, at a stadium in rural Ohio, took yet another boisterous swipe at elitism.
But it wasn’t just because these celebrities were rich and out of touch that Americans were put off by them. It’s because those celebrities were the people most likely to judge red-state Americans as rubes — nasties intent on targeting Muslims and gays and blacks and women. The unearned moral superiority of America’s celebrity class rests in their open condemnation of flyover Americans as brutish louts, and their self-parodying belief that they are civil-rights heroes. Hollywood (wrongly) believes that it singlehandedly ended segregation; Hollywood (rightly) believes that it had a heavy hand in promoting same-sex marriage. Hollywood sees itself as the moral vanguard.
Americans reacted badly to that.
Why did they react so badly to the celebrities in this particular election cycle? Ironically enough, it’s because the Left had already won the culture wars.
Most Americans, not just celebrities, vote as they do because they have a moral vision of themselves and the universe in which they are heroes or victims, never perpetrators. For decades, the Left consistently put front and center its vision of an America in which Republicans were victimizers: Either they were evil racists, or they were John Lithgow–in-Footloose holier-than-thou sexual prudes, or they were old-style Mad Men sexists looking to shove women back into the kitchen. Celebrities helped push these narratives through the stories they told, the movies they filmed, the books they wrote.
And Americans accepted the critiques.
Americans accepted racial equality. Americans celebrated female empowerment. Americans went libertarian on sexual behavior.
And the Left had to go searching for a new civil-rights struggle with which to cram conservatives back into their “victimizer” cubbyhole. The Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle.
There was, however, one problem: All the good civil-rights issues have been dealt with already. And so the Left, which focuses all of its efforts on social issues, was relegated to pushing crime-increasing myths about the evils of cops; the celebrities were forced to pretend that men peeing next to women was the next great Martin Luther King, Jr.–style struggle; Democrats were forced to march on their next target, not merely church involvement in state, but private beliefs of churchgoers.
And herein lies the biggest problem facing the American Left: America is the most tolerant country in world history. There are no more serious civil-rights struggles for the Left to push. In fact, the Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle: Religious bakers must be destroyed if they won’t bake a cake for a same-sex wedding; young girls must be forced to go to the same bathroom as middle-aged men, hosts on HGTV must be policed for belief in Scripture regarding sexual sin.
No wonder Americans reacted by telling the Left to shove it.
That phenomenon could very well continue. The Left has run out of aggressors to target; instead, they’ve become the aggressors, self-righteous morality police dedicated to wiping out dissenting thought. Americans aren’t up for that sort of thing. We think we’re pretty tolerant people, and, by and large, we are. Trump won, at least in part, by refusing to kowtow to the Left’s newest social crusades, in word if not in deed.
In Die Hard, villain Hans Gruber misquotes Plutarch: “And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer.” The Left will never recognize that simple fact — and so they will push ever onward, steadily encroaching on liberty and driving a blowback they cannot comprehend.
Ben Shapiro is the editor in chief of the Daily Wire.Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
Most of this is in fact bullsiht.
That's unfortunate because a conversation about the tendencies of what the writer and OP refer to as the 'Left' and the 'Right' is viable and might even be interesting. However, attempting to build that conversation based on the fallacy that equality has been achieved in America restricts the conversation to delusional white men who imagine a world that doesn't actually exist. America has never 'accepted equality' and in fact works against it on a daily basis and while it feigns 'celebrating' female empowerment - it withholds true equality generation after generation. Only a privileged white man would decide that someone else's struggle had been "won", that 'all the good civil rights issues' (whatever that means) had been 'dealt with'; that it was time to stand down because the fight was largely over. Ridiculous.
Offering the idea that 'America is the most tolerant country in world history' is a hollow proclamation. Americans live in America and they base their level of citizenship on that enjoyed by other Americans, not Europe or Africa or Asia or the Middle East. That sentence really means- 'We've done all we're willing to do, you have enough, now be satisfied and be quiet'.
If America was capable of 'accepting equality' it wouldn't need to obsess about diversity. The truth is that America failed and continues to fail at achieving equality because it lacks the moral courage to upend its original design and take more than baby steps toward the truths it pretends to revere.
terp said:
DaveSchmidt said:Where is this bastion of discussion?
I've had some experience discussing, debating and arguing topics with adults. Even when they laugh at me, they don't sound like this.
No bastion required. Lots of adults do it, every day, all over the place. Including right here in this forum.
You may want to take a look at the referenced article regarding deaths in police stops by race. See http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler The article does not bear out your implicit accusations. And, yes I acknowledge that there are "bad" police out there (such as the SC cop who shot the man in the back). IMHO, "bad" police are an aberration and do not represent the feelings or behavior of most police officers.
tom said:
Dylann Roof commits mass murder, then is pulled over by police -- who holster their weapons. He's given a bulletproof vest.
African-Americans get pulled over by the police for a busted taillight, and they pull their weapons and shoot them where they sit.
Yeah, I can't imagine why NYU suspended him:
"Coming: EXPLOSIVE proof of uni admins' malfeasance hiring, promoting & protecting #frauds solely bc of identity & that's 1/2 of it! #idpol."
"What if Trump triggers a few hundred thousand liberal totalitarians to jump out of their dorm windows? one can only hope. #TriggerWarning
— Deplorable NYU Prof (@antipcnyuprof) September 27, 2016"
terp said:If you're interested, he's on Gaad Saad's show called the Saad Truth. Great name for a show.
Anyhoo, He explains his side. According to him, when he was called in there was someone from HR there already. Never a good sign.
@flimbro, thanks for your critique. You challenge, and apparently vigorously disagree, with the assertion that "equality has been achieved in America." I am trying to understand your POV. As a result, please let me know the following:
1. How will we know when equality has been achieved in the US (AKA America)?
2. In very general terms, what needs to be done in order to achieve equality in the US?
3. What do you expect the timeline (under the most optimistic circumstances) to be in order to achieve equality in the US?
4. Are blue-collar whites in the midwest entitled to their grievances and anger regarding the economy in those regions (and its affect on their prospects)?
flimbro said:
RealityForAll said:
Interesting commentary on politics by Ben Shapiro. I think BS focuses too much on celebrities and Hollywood in this article. Instead, I think that a lot of what BS describes in this article can instead be attributed to identity politics.
==========================================================
From: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey (Dreamstime image: Lisa F. Young) by BEN SHAPIRO December 7, 2016 4:00 AM
When all the good civil-right issues have been largely won, go after Christian bakers, celibate nuns, and girls in locker rooms. In the vast tsunami of leftist grief that has washed over the land in the aftermath of Donald Trump’s shocking presidential victory, no flotsam has been as prevalent as Hollywood gliterrati weeping and screaming and gnashing their teeth while donning only the most stylish and expensive sackcloth. Most recently, near-sextuagenarian Madonna lamented, “I was devastated, surprised, in shock. I haven’t really had a good night’s sleep since he has been elected. We’re f***ed.”
Some of the shock of Trump’s victory is surely due to the bubble that exists in Hollywood and New York, the Pauline Kael–esque sense that nobody could have voted for Trump. But some of it also derives from celebrities’ self-assured belief that they have an outsized impact in the world of politics. Clearly that view infused the Clinton campaign: Hillary trotted out Lena Dunham of Girls fame, she of the false rape accusations and gleeful admissions of sexually abusing her sister, on the campaign trail all year long; Clinton advocates such as Elizabeth Banks took time off from producing bad a cappella sequels to film ads; singers and actors all joined to make a difference by producing a glossy version of Rachel Platten’s maddening “Fight Song.”
And not only didn’t those things matter, they actually helped drive voters away from Clinton. They exacerbated the image of Clinton as an out-of-touch elitist who spent her free time hanging out with Katy Perry, even as Donald Trump, at a stadium in rural Ohio, took yet another boisterous swipe at elitism.
But it wasn’t just because these celebrities were rich and out of touch that Americans were put off by them. It’s because those celebrities were the people most likely to judge red-state Americans as rubes — nasties intent on targeting Muslims and gays and blacks and women. The unearned moral superiority of America’s celebrity class rests in their open condemnation of flyover Americans as brutish louts, and their self-parodying belief that they are civil-rights heroes. Hollywood (wrongly) believes that it singlehandedly ended segregation; Hollywood (rightly) believes that it had a heavy hand in promoting same-sex marriage. Hollywood sees itself as the moral vanguard.
Americans reacted badly to that.
Why did they react so badly to the celebrities in this particular election cycle? Ironically enough, it’s because the Left had already won the culture wars.
Most Americans, not just celebrities, vote as they do because they have a moral vision of themselves and the universe in which they are heroes or victims, never perpetrators. For decades, the Left consistently put front and center its vision of an America in which Republicans were victimizers: Either they were evil racists, or they were John Lithgow–in-Footloose holier-than-thou sexual prudes, or they were old-style Mad Men sexists looking to shove women back into the kitchen. Celebrities helped push these narratives through the stories they told, the movies they filmed, the books they wrote.
And Americans accepted the critiques.
Americans accepted racial equality. Americans celebrated female empowerment. Americans went libertarian on sexual behavior.
And the Left had to go searching for a new civil-rights struggle with which to cram conservatives back into their “victimizer” cubbyhole. The Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle.
There was, however, one problem: All the good civil-rights issues have been dealt with already. And so the Left, which focuses all of its efforts on social issues, was relegated to pushing crime-increasing myths about the evils of cops; the celebrities were forced to pretend that men peeing next to women was the next great Martin Luther King, Jr.–style struggle; Democrats were forced to march on their next target, not merely church involvement in state, but private beliefs of churchgoers.
And herein lies the biggest problem facing the American Left: America is the most tolerant country in world history. There are no more serious civil-rights struggles for the Left to push. In fact, the Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle: Religious bakers must be destroyed if they won’t bake a cake for a same-sex wedding; young girls must be forced to go to the same bathroom as middle-aged men, hosts on HGTV must be policed for belief in Scripture regarding sexual sin.
No wonder Americans reacted by telling the Left to shove it.
That phenomenon could very well continue. The Left has run out of aggressors to target; instead, they’ve become the aggressors, self-righteous morality police dedicated to wiping out dissenting thought. Americans aren’t up for that sort of thing. We think we’re pretty tolerant people, and, by and large, we are. Trump won, at least in part, by refusing to kowtow to the Left’s newest social crusades, in word if not in deed.
In Die Hard, villain Hans Gruber misquotes Plutarch: “And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer.” The Left will never recognize that simple fact — and so they will push ever onward, steadily encroaching on liberty and driving a blowback they cannot comprehend.
Ben Shapiro is the editor in chief of the Daily Wire.Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
Most of this is in fact bullsiht.
That's unfortunate because a conversation about the tendencies of what the writer and OP refer to as the 'Left' and the 'Right' is viable and might even be interesting. However, attempting to build that conversation based on the fallacy that equality has been achieved in America restricts the conversation to delusional white men who imagine a world that doesn't actually exist. America has never 'accepted equality' and in fact works against it on a daily basis and while it feigns 'celebrating' female empowerment - it withholds true equality generation after generation. Only a privileged white man would decide that someone else's struggle had been "won", that 'all the good civil rights issues' (whatever that means) had been 'dealt with'; that it was time to stand down because the fight was largely over. Ridiculous.
Offering the idea that 'America is the most tolerant country in world history' is a hollow proclamation. Americans live in America and they base their level of citizenship on that enjoyed by other Americans, not Europe or Africa or Asia or the Middle East. That sentence really means- 'We've done all we're willing to do, you have enough, now be satisfied and be quiet'.
If America was capable of 'accepting equality' it wouldn't need to obsess about diversity. The truth is that America failed and continues to fail at achieving equality because it lacks the moral courage to upend its original design and take more than baby steps toward the truths it pretends to revere.
ml1 said:
what a bunch of BS.
Not only are the conservatives not content with winning elections, they also want liberals to just shut the **** up. And they love, just love being victims. What a bunch of pansies.
Pansies? Not very PC. Some people should be careful what they write. Others might want to do a psychoanalysis of your thought processes
RealityForAll said:
You may want to take a look at the referenced article regarding deaths in police stops by race. See http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler The article does not bear out your implicit accusations. And, yes I acknowledge that there are "bad" police out there (such as the SC cop who shot the man in the back). IMHO, "bad" police are an aberration and do not represent the feelings or behavior of most police officers.
tom said:
Dylann Roof commits mass murder, then is pulled over by police -- who holster their weapons. He's given a bulletproof vest.
African-Americans get pulled over by the police for a busted taillight, and they pull their weapons and shoot them where they sit.
Police sitting in their car get shot, and police responding to family arguments get shot, and police responding to an ambush get shot.
African - Americans get shot and beaten unjustly.
Neither can be justified, and fortunately the thousands of interactions between both are not resolved that way.
RealityForAll said:
@flimbro, thanks for your critique. You challenge, and apparently vigorously disagree, with the assertion that "equality has been achieved in America." I am trying to understand your POV. As a result, please let me know the following:
1. How will we know when equality has been achieved in the US (AKA America)?
2. In very general terms, what needs to be done in order to achieve equality in the US?
3. What do you expect the timeline (under the most optimistic circumstances) to be in order to achieve equality in the US?
4. Are blue-collar whites in the midwest entitled to their grievances and anger regarding the economy in those regions (and its affect on their prospects)?
flimbro said:
RealityForAll said:
Interesting commentary on politics by Ben Shapiro. I think BS focuses too much on celebrities and Hollywood in this article. Instead, I think that a lot of what BS describes in this article can instead be attributed to identity politics.
==========================================================
From: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey (Dreamstime image: Lisa F. Young) by BEN SHAPIRO December 7, 2016 4:00 AM
When all the good civil-right issues have been largely won, go after Christian bakers, celibate nuns, and girls in locker rooms. In the vast tsunami of leftist grief that has washed over the land in the aftermath of Donald Trump’s shocking presidential victory, no flotsam has been as prevalent as Hollywood gliterrati weeping and screaming and gnashing their teeth while donning only the most stylish and expensive sackcloth. Most recently, near-sextuagenarian Madonna lamented, “I was devastated, surprised, in shock. I haven’t really had a good night’s sleep since he has been elected. We’re f***ed.”
And Americans accepted the critiques.
Americans accepted racial equality. Americans celebrated female empowerment. Americans went libertarian on sexual behavior.
And the Left had to go searching for a new civil-rights struggle with which to cram conservatives back into their “victimizer” cubbyhole. The Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle.
There was, however, one problem: All the good civil-rights issues have been dealt with already. And so the Left, which focuses all of its efforts on social issues, was relegated to pushing crime-increasing myths about the evils of cops; the celebrities were forced to pretend that men peeing next to women was the next great Martin Luther King, Jr.–style struggle; Democrats were forced to march on their next target, not merely church involvement in state, but private beliefs of churchgoers.
Ben Shapiro is the editor in chief of the Daily Wire.Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
Most of this is in fact bullsiht.
That's unfortunate because a conversation about the tendencies of what the writer and OP refer to as the 'Left' and the 'Right' is viable and might even be interesting. However, attempting to build that conversation based on the fallacy that equality has been achieved in America restricts the conversation to delusional white men who imagine a world that doesn't actually exist. America has never 'accepted equality' and in fact works against it on a daily basis and while it feigns 'celebrating' female empowerment - it withholds true equality generation after generation. Only a privileged white man would decide that someone else's struggle had been "won", that 'all the good civil rights issues' (whatever that means) had been 'dealt with'; that it was time to stand down because the fight was largely over. Ridiculous.
Offering the idea that 'America is the most tolerant country in world history' is a hollow proclamation. Americans live in America and they base their level of citizenship on that enjoyed by other Americans, not Europe or Africa or Asia or the Middle East. That sentence really means- 'We've done all we're willing to do, you have enough, now be satisfied and be quiet'.
If America was capable of 'accepting equality' it wouldn't need to obsess about diversity. The truth is that America failed and continues to fail at achieving equality because it lacks the moral courage to upend its original design and take more than baby steps toward the truths it pretends to revere.
1.) We won't know because the US as we currently know it will not allow for equality.
2.) Abandoning the concept of white supremacy (moneyed and male) based on the social and economic subjugation of anyone who does not fit that description.
3.) Approximately ten seconds after hell freezes over.
4.) Yes, as are Black and brown blue collar workers in the Midwest.
@flimbro: Thanks for the response. I have restated my question one, and your response to it, below.
RFA Q1. How will we know when equality has been achieved in the US (AKA America)?
FB A1. We won't know because the US as we currently know it will not allow for equality.
In question one ("1"), I am asking for a standard or goal that would let us know whether equality between Afican-Americans ("AAs") and whites is getting better, or worse. Additionally, what should the end goal or standard be that allows our society, the federal government, or you to conclude that we have reached equality between whites and AAs. Alternatively, should we instead use a subjective standard for determining AA/white inequality (such as a popular poll on this issue garnered from AAs and whites, or the zeitgeist of a particular era).
PS Let me know how, or why, such a standard for inequality cannot be formulated because "the US as we currently know it will not allow for equality."
flimbro said:
RealityForAll said:
@flimbro, thanks for your critique. You challenge, and apparently vigorously disagree, with the assertion that "equality has been achieved in America." I am trying to understand your POV. As a result, please let me know the following:
1. How will we know when equality has been achieved in the US (AKA America)?
2. In very general terms, what needs to be done in order to achieve equality in the US?
3. What do you expect the timeline (under the most optimistic circumstances) to be in order to achieve equality in the US?
4. Are blue-collar whites in the midwest entitled to their grievances and anger regarding the economy in those regions (and its affect on their prospects)?
flimbro said:
RealityForAll said:
Interesting commentary on politics by Ben Shapiro. I think BS focuses too much on celebrities and Hollywood in this article. Instead, I think that a lot of what BS describes in this article can instead be attributed to identity politics.
==========================================================
From: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
From Victims to Victimizers: The Left’s Long Journey (Dreamstime image: Lisa F. Young) by BEN SHAPIRO December 7, 2016 4:00 AM
When all the good civil-right issues have been largely won, go after Christian bakers, celibate nuns, and girls in locker rooms. In the vast tsunami of leftist grief that has washed over the land in the aftermath of Donald Trump’s shocking presidential victory, no flotsam has been as prevalent as Hollywood gliterrati weeping and screaming and gnashing their teeth while donning only the most stylish and expensive sackcloth. Most recently, near-sextuagenarian Madonna lamented, “I was devastated, surprised, in shock. I haven’t really had a good night’s sleep since he has been elected. We’re f***ed.”
And Americans accepted the critiques.
Americans accepted racial equality. Americans celebrated female empowerment. Americans went libertarian on sexual behavior.
And the Left had to go searching for a new civil-rights struggle with which to cram conservatives back into their “victimizer” cubbyhole. The Left now pushes against civil rights in its ignorant search for the new struggle.
There was, however, one problem: All the good civil-rights issues have been dealt with already. And so the Left, which focuses all of its efforts on social issues, was relegated to pushing crime-increasing myths about the evils of cops; the celebrities were forced to pretend that men peeing next to women was the next great Martin Luther King, Jr.–style struggle; Democrats were forced to march on their next target, not merely church involvement in state, but private beliefs of churchgoers.
Ben Shapiro is the editor in chief of the Daily Wire.Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442821/left-won-culture-wars-now-its-bully
Most of this is in fact bullsiht.
That's unfortunate because a conversation about the tendencies of what the writer and OP refer to as the 'Left' and the 'Right' is viable and might even be interesting. However, attempting to build that conversation based on the fallacy that equality has been achieved in America restricts the conversation to delusional white men who imagine a world that doesn't actually exist. America has never 'accepted equality' and in fact works against it on a daily basis and while it feigns 'celebrating' female empowerment - it withholds true equality generation after generation. Only a privileged white man would decide that someone else's struggle had been "won", that 'all the good civil rights issues' (whatever that means) had been 'dealt with'; that it was time to stand down because the fight was largely over. Ridiculous.
Offering the idea that 'America is the most tolerant country in world history' is a hollow proclamation. Americans live in America and they base their level of citizenship on that enjoyed by other Americans, not Europe or Africa or Asia or the Middle East. That sentence really means- 'We've done all we're willing to do, you have enough, now be satisfied and be quiet'.
If America was capable of 'accepting equality' it wouldn't need to obsess about diversity. The truth is that America failed and continues to fail at achieving equality because it lacks the moral courage to upend its original design and take more than baby steps toward the truths it pretends to revere.
1.) We won't know because the US as we currently know it will not allow for equality.
2.) Abandoning the concept of white supremacy (moneyed and male) based on the social and economic subjugation of anyone who does not fit that description.
3.) Approximately ten seconds after hell freezes over.
4.) Yes, as are Black and brown blue collar workers in the Midwest.
My definition of equality is not what is being examined. As I am not the person who stated the following (regarding whether equality has been achieved between AA and whites): "[w]e won't know because the US as we currently know it will not allow for equality."
PS however, if I were searching for definition of "equality, my natural impulse would be to start by looking for the term in a dictionary.
pmartinezv said:
@Realityforall, what is equality to you? How do you define it?
ml1 said:
terp said:
ml1 said:
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads?
Again. I'm not sure that "cons are freaking out". That seems like projection.
They're calling themselves victims
The thing about this whining about PC is that the last year and a half suggests it's really not a big deal. I don't think most people have restrained themselves from expressing their non-PC opinions on a whole array of issues. Our president-elect certainly hasn't.
So,you are ok with what was depicted above? You are OK with having someone banned from campus for voicing their opinion. You are OK with the use of force to keep them out.
ml1 said
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads
Your answers above would determine my opinion on this question.
DaveSchmidt said:
terp said:
DaveSchmidt said:Where is this bastion of discussion?
I've had some experience discussing, debating and arguing topics with adults. Even when they laugh at me, they don't sound like this.
No bastion required. Lots of adults do it, every day, all over the place. Including right here in this forum.
Hmmmm...
why would I be ok with someone being forced out of a job for expressing an opinion (assuming of course that there are no other reasons, and there was no incitement involved)? Of course I wouldn't.
that has little to do with the Shapiro article however, which is mainly about conservatives, particularly Christians, perceiving that "the left" is victimizing them.
terp said:
ml1 said:
terp said:
ml1 said:
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads?
Again. I'm not sure that "cons are freaking out". That seems like projection.
They're calling themselves victims
The thing about this whining about PC is that the last year and a half suggests it's really not a big deal. I don't think most people have restrained themselves from expressing their non-PC opinions on a whole array of issues. Our president-elect certainly hasn't.
So,you are ok with what was depicted above? You are OK with having someone banned from campus for voicing their opinion. You are OK with the use of force to keep them out.
ml1 said
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads
Your answers above would determine my opinion on this question.
@RealityForAll
LOL. You're working overtime at not understanding. But I'll play along for a few posts.
Are you a cis-gendered white man with property and credit? If so, YOU will know that equality has been achieved when every single American you see and come into contact with every single minute of every single day regardless of nationality, skin color, religion or gender has access to everything you have access to.
They don't have to have what you have and you don't need to have what they have- but they have to have the same access you have- the same opportunities. Their neighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment. Their municipal services will have to be sufficient. Their water will be clean and their food will be fresh. Their children will be cherished, respected and protected. They'll have the same access to lines of credit, mortgages and employment and compensation commensurate with their position. They have to be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon. They'll be free to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty and they will be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government. Their right to vote will not be withheld and they will not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.
You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.
Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?
flimbro said:
@RealityForAll
You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.
Yup. But as long as people are griping about their relatives being pulled over repeatedly by the police, being tailed in department stores, not being able to hail a cab... you can be pretty sure we're not there.
I don't know. You could see where one could scratch their heads when you call Political Correctness harmless and that occurs though.
And I'll be completely honest here: I like Ben Shapiro. I also like Milo Yiannopoulis. That being said, I don't agree with everything they say. Actually, I rather strongly disagree with some of the things they say.
However, they have a POV and they explain it well. But there are tons of videos with these guys being harassed. They get invited to campus and people lose their ****. Fire alarms pulled, police called, people disrupting on purpose.
And hey, I'm all for protesting. What I don't get is that when these people, who are clearly angry about something, are challenged they literally have nothing to say. They will use the term "White Supremacist" which I think is a pretty serious allegation, and quite literally have nothing to back it up. And that's the problem as I see it.
We demonize, when we have not really thought things through. This coupled with a rather wide broad brush of guilt by association really shuts down any effective discussion.
Anyway, that's the problem as I see it. I could be wrong.
ml1 said:
why would I be ok with someone being forced out of a job for expressing an opinion (assuming of course that there are no other reasons, and there was no incitement involved)? Of course I wouldn't.
that has little to do with the Shapiro article however, which is mainly about conservatives, particularly Christians, perceiving that "the left" is victimizing them.
terp said:
ml1 said:
terp said:
ml1 said:
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads?
Again. I'm not sure that "cons are freaking out". That seems like projection.
They're calling themselves victims
The thing about this whining about PC is that the last year and a half suggests it's really not a big deal. I don't think most people have restrained themselves from expressing their non-PC opinions on a whole array of issues. Our president-elect certainly hasn't.
So,you are ok with what was depicted above? You are OK with having someone banned from campus for voicing their opinion. You are OK with the use of force to keep them out.
ml1 said
Who is this "you" that you're addressing? Certainly none of that describes me.
Why are cons freaking out over a handful of undergrads
Your answers above would determine my opinion on this question.
flimbro said:
@RealityForAll
LOL. You're working overtime at not understanding. But I'll play along for a few posts.
Are you a cis-gendered white man with property and credit? If so, YOU will know that equality has been achieved when every single American you see and come into contact with every single minute of every single day regardless of nationality, skin color, religion or gender has access to everything you have access to.
They don't have to have what you have and you don't need to have what they have- but they have to have the same access you have- the same opportunities. Their neighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment. Their municipal services will have to be sufficient. Their water will be clean and their food will be fresh. Their children will be cherished, respected and protected. They'll have the same access to lines of credit, mortgages and employment and compensation commensurate with their position. They have to be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon. They'll be free to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty and they will be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government. Their right to vote will not be withheld and they will not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.
You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.
Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?
There is no central solution to this problem. There is no legislation that could be passed to create what you describe.
terp said:
flimbro said:
@RealityForAll
LOL. You're working overtime at not understanding. But I'll play along for a few posts.
Are you a cis-gendered white man with property and credit? If so, YOU will know that equality has been achieved when every single American you see and come into contact with every single minute of every single day regardless of nationality, skin color, religion or gender has access to everything you have access to.
They don't have to have what you have and you don't need to have what they have- but they have to have the same access you have- the same opportunities. Their neighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment. Their municipal services will have to be sufficient. Their water will be clean and their food will be fresh. Their children will be cherished, respected and protected. They'll have the same access to lines of credit, mortgages and employment and compensation commensurate with their position. They have to be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon. They'll be free to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty and they will be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government. Their right to vote will not be withheld and they will not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.
You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.
Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?
There is not central solution to this problem. There is no legislation that could be passed to create what you describe.
What legislation was passed to give you those rights?
RealityForAll said:
@LOST: you have intentionally attributed the words of Ben Shapiro to me. I am sure that you know that this type of behavior is more than inappropriate. The end does not justify the means. Can we agree on this principle?
An editing mistake. Nothing intentional. I apologize and will attempt to correct it.
Thanks for the acknowledgement on the issue.
LOST said:
RealityForAll said:
@LOST: you have intentionally attributed the words of Ben Shapiro to me. I am sure that you know that this type of behavior is more than inappropriate. The end does not justify the means. Can we agree on this principle?
An editing mistake. Nothing intentional. I apologize and will attempt to correct it.
flimbro said:
terp said:
flimbro said:
@RealityForAll
LOL. You're working overtime at not understanding. But I'll play along for a few posts.
Are you a cis-gendered white man with property and credit? If so, YOU will know that equality has been achieved when every single American you see and come into contact with every single minute of every single day regardless of nationality, skin color, religion or gender has access to everything you have access to.
They don't have to have what you have and you don't need to have what they have- but they have to have the same access you have- the same opportunities. Their neighborhoods have to have schools with qualified teachers and equipment. Their municipal services will have to be sufficient. Their water will be clean and their food will be fresh. Their children will be cherished, respected and protected. They'll have the same access to lines of credit, mortgages and employment and compensation commensurate with their position. They have to be treated equitably by law enforcement and the courts and their right to travel freely cannot be impinged upon. They'll be free to love, marry and create a life with whomever they choose without penalty and they will be in full control of what they do to their bodies at all times without interference from the government. Their right to vote will not be withheld and they will not suffer ridicule or exclusion due to a handicap or disability.
You'll know that this day has arrived when all of the people you know regardless of their station gripe about the same mundane siht you gripe about.
Now, do you think that's possible? If not, why not? If your 'founding fathers' were able to envision a country based on these principles why haven't we been able to achieve it? What's the hold up? Who's dragging their feet here?
There is not central solution to this problem. There is no legislation that could be passed to create what you describe.
What legislation was passed to give you those rights?
Which rights?
RealityForAll said:
PPS I will take your desperate behavior (namely, quote misattribution and alarmism regarding the SC jury) as evidence of your current state of mind. Sorry to hear that this election has been this troubling to you.
It's not "alarmism". We have to be realistic about lingering racism. The election results are very troubling to me and many others. I guess I find it upsetting that some very reasonable and intelligent people are not troubled by the Election of a man who started his campaign by attacking and ethnic group, continued in that vein by attacking a sitting Judge because he is the son of members of that group, then attacked an entire Religion and behaved as he did in a manner not fitting a responsible adult let alone a candidate seeking the office originally held by George Washington and then by people like Madison, Lincoln et. al.
You said, "There is no central solution to this problem. There is no legislation that could be passed to create what you describe."
In my reply to RealityForAll I listed a series of social situations that could be described as rights. Most Americans have those rights. If they don't enjoy those rights via legislation how did they get them? How did you get them?
flimbro said:
@terp
You said, "There is no central solution to this problem. There is no legislation that could be passed to create what you describe."
In my reply to RealityForAll I listed a series of social situations that could be described as rights. Most Americans have those rights. If they don't enjoy those rights via legislation how did they get them? How did you get them?
I'm pretty sure I know terp's answer but I'll wait for him to articulate it.
@LOST: I humbly disagree with your disavowal of my charge of alarmism regarding your conclusion about the SC hung jury (in the case of the murdered black man shot in the back). Once again, one disreputable juror delayed the system. Additionally, it is likely that this disreputable juror lied during voir dire. Thus, I think it is a stretch to imply that the justice system is rigged in this case.
PS The hung jury in this case is also troubling to me (but not sufficient for me to allege structural racism or a rigged judicial system).
PPS I am also troubled by DJT's garbage mouth and his attacks on various people including the federal judge of, I believe, Mexican descent. However, DJT's garbage mouth will not cause me to become an alarmist (at this time).
LOST said:
RealityForAll said:
PPS I will take your desperate behavior (namely, quote misattribution and alarmism regarding the SC jury) as evidence of your current state of mind. Sorry to hear that this election has been this troubling to you.
It's not "alarmism". We have to be realistic about lingering racism. The election results are very troubling to me and many others. I guess I find it upsetting that some very reasonable and intelligent people are not troubled by the Election of a man who started his campaign by attacking and ethnic group, continued in that vein by attacking a sitting Judge because he is the son of members of that group, then attacked an entire Religion and behaved as he did in a manner not fitting a responsible adult let alone a candidate seeking the office originally held by George Washington and then by people like Madison, Lincoln et. al.
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The answer is for the Democrats to concentrate on solutions to people's economic concerns and not get pulled into these discussions of right wing victimhood.
As I've written before, there is no solution to conservatives and Christians feeling like victims. There are too many people who see benefit from keeping Christians in particular in a perpetual state of perceived victimhood. Whether the issue is LGBT rights, abortion, contraception, etc., the right is seeking out the confrontations and then turning around and claiming they're being victimized by people who are just trying to protect their own rights. No one is trying to take away anyone's religion or prevent them from practicing it. It's pretty simple -- people who own businesses don't have the right to impose their religion on other people, or use their religion as a rationale for discrimination.
Is your suggestion that we accept that businesses can cite the religion of their owners as a justification for discriminating against other people? Because I don't see any other solution that conservative Christians are going to accept without feeling "victimized."