fox and falcon

Ambiance is overrated.

They do serve alcohol at the BK Lounge now...

Are they officially open or is this a soft open?

I know very little about the restaurant business. I don't know how hard it is to start a new place, although I know there's lots of challenges. One of them is setting pricing so that you a) make enough to cover your expenses and maybe take some money home and b) attract enough customers to stay in business.

So I have to give the new owners the benefit of the doubt that they're appropriately pricing their menu items. I'm sure they did their market analysis and think they can attract people who are willing and able to pay the kinds of prices I'm reading about here. It sounds like a handful of folks here are in that group of diners. 

For me, though, 17 dollars for a glass of wine is going to keep me from setting foot in the place. They're clearly aiming at a different socioeconomic level than I currently occupy! Maybe economic demographics skew higher around here than I know. 

I think only time and the market will determine if the place is successful. But it seems like that spot must be challenging to operate a restaurant that generates enough revenue to stay up and running.

I think there is consensus here they need lower price-point wines.  Once again, I'm not sure of the wholesale cost of what they are serving (didn't recognize any the wineries of what they are serving) but are plenty of good bottles that a restaurant could serve between $8 and $12 per glass and make 66%+ margin.  Restaurant food margins on average are also in that range (65%ish).  Machine-formed LaFrieda burger patties are overpriced for the resulting end product, IMO.  

Strange fact..........our friends at Roman Gourmet produce a perfectly good and tasty burger in the $6.00 range.  Order and you will wait a while but your burger will be tasty and a pleasant surprise.

For those who feel the need to spend $18.00 for a burger...........I'm sure you prefer the prestige of a Rolex which serves the exact same function of a Timex

It's interesting to follow this restaurant on FB, Instagram (where they post) and here. On FB and Instagram there have been a few complaints about specific dishes (too much pepper in one dish, beet salad a little weak, both from the first night), but most are very positive. And the owner seems to respond to the complaints. This thread seems to overly focus on the burger and comparisons to burger chains and places like Roman Gourmet.

I don't see why these things need to be mutually exclusive. As has been suggested, some of us like to splurge once in awhile but generally are happy with the local pizza place or diner and for the most part eat at home. Fox also seems to be a great place, like the Cassidy and others, to have a small dish at the bar.

A multi-course dinner there is going to be beyond the budget of a lot of folks - almost any type of restaurant or diner or takeout is a bit of a luxury, given our easy access to supermarkets - but it does seem to be what S.O. has been looking for, given the lack of more high-end places there. The owner and chef are both very experience, and seem like the kind of folks who can read a market and adjust the menu as needed.

Service-wise, the on-duty floor manager was one of the best I've encountered locally and reminded me of my days of working for one of the most successful and service-minded fine-casual mini-chains in and around the DC metro area.  Our waiter was less good but that's likely the product of local market supply, lack of experience and training, which hopefully will come.

I finally went back in the thread and found the link to the menu. To apple44's point there's more to the story than the $18 burger and the other entrees are more in line with what you'd think. Looking at 20-24 for most excluding a $39 ribeye. Which I might get if I hear that it's good on a big ol' splurge night.

But I wouldn't get the $17 wine to go with it.

I'd be surprised if MOL was on the radar of the proprietors of the F&F.

mrincredible said:
I'd be surprised if MOL was on the radar of the proprietors of the F&F.

Frankly if I was starting a business, I wouldn't even read the comments here.  I think that there is an awful lot of negativity that comes from people who wouldn't be the target customer anyway.

Heh. I'm sure there's no negativity on the Book of Face or the Instant Graham.

And it’s no harder to take opinions here for what they’re worth than it is anywhere else.

mrincredible said:
They're clearly aiming at a different socioeconomic level than I currently occupy! Maybe economic demographics skew higher around here than I know. 

I do feel that the income level of the average M/SO resident has increased since I moved here ten years ago. No statistics, just a feeling. 

mrincredible said:
Heh. I'm sure there's no negativity on the Book of Face or the Instant Graham.

"don't read the comments" is a general internet rule

kthnry said:

mrincredible said:
They're clearly aiming at a different socioeconomic level than I currently occupy! Maybe economic demographics skew higher around here than I know. 

I do feel that the income level of the average M/SO resident has increased since I moved here ten years ago. No statistics, just a feeling. 

I think that's been the frustration of a lot of people in S.O, that the town has become somewhat more affluent, with more folks with experience in places like NYC, and the restaurant offerings haven't kept pace, while Maplewood and Millburn have places like Common Lot, Lorenas, Arturos and so on and Montclair continues to expand. This place fills a void, but it's not going to be for everyone. That said, it seems you can still go to the Snug at F&F and have a beer and an appetizer. Seems like a good fit for the town.

What worries me is the slider offering - the "Sunday sauce" leads me to believe they are produced from a local, easily obtainable frozen source. 

It's a pretty big space compared to some of the other upscale places you mention. That might make it harder to keep it full. 

I'm not sure what the change in incomes actually has been. There have been a lot of affluent people around here for a long time. I think expectations about dining options have changed.

We'll know soon enough how much of a void is filled. If the place is thriving and bustling in 3 months then there's your answer.

mrincredible said:

I'd be surprised if MOL was on the radar of the proprietors of the F&F.

 I checked SOMA Lounge Facebook and there are few reviews, most of which seem to be enamored with the branzino.  No one mentions the prices.  Someone posted an early version of the wine list (reposted here) - similar, but the one I saw had no bottle prices, simply said something about "ask about bottle prices."  A quick google search shows that most of the reds can be had online for $10 - $20 per bottle retail.  Yikes. 

The definition of quartino is a quarter liter, so over 9 oz., at least a glass and a half by most standards.  If they are delivering that much, the pricing isn’t as insane.  If they aren’t, then perhaps they shouldn’t use the term.

If the service and food are great, there is enough money around to give them a good chance, but it is a huge space, and a menu that doesn’t seem calculated for the family dining that is the majority of the dining budget at our house.  I wish them luck and look forward to trying them out.

lanky said:

mrincredible said:

I'd be surprised if MOL was on the radar of the proprietors of the F&F.

 I checked SOMA Lounge Facebook and there are few reviews, most of which seem to be enamored with the branzino.  No one mentions the prices.  Someone posted an early version of the wine list (reposted here) - similar, but the one I saw had no bottle prices, simply said something about "ask about bottle prices."  A quick google search shows that most of the reds can be had online for $10 - $20 per bottle retail.  Yikes. 

 Lets look at the math.    

If a Quartino is a quarter of a liter, than they should be pouring you 1/3 of a typical 750ml bottle.  Using an average of bottle cost of $15 from above, a $17 glass price yields a 29.4% liquor cost which is on the high side of a standard range.  So it seems they are not really overpricing so much as choosing to offer upscale products. 

250 ml = 8.45 oz.  Personally, I'm still used to restaurants charging in the $12-14 range for a 9 oz pour.  

Re-looking at the math, $15 would be a retail price.  $10 would be closer to a wholesale price, so yes, I think they are overcharging.  But regardless, to be successful I think they should offer less pricey wines (which can taste just as good or better).

lanky said:
But regardless, to be successful I think they should offer less pricey wines (which can taste just as good or better).

it's this.  Cassidy has a couple of really nice glasses of wine at $10.

If anyone goes - please post food pics!

Meatball sliders, from Instagram

apple44 said:
Meatball sliders, from Instagram

 I'm saying nothing.

ridski said:

apple44 said:
Meatball sliders, from Instagram

 I'm saying nothing.

 Meatballs and Sunday sauce...

bets said:
What worries me is the slider offering - the "Sunday sauce" leads me to believe they are produced from a local, easily obtainable frozen source. 

Not understanding this. The chef previously worked at Del Posto in the city. If he can't make a good sauce, that would be pretty incredible.

Not sure if this helps but leftover 1/2 burger from the other night.  *edited to add that mustard on bottom added by the poster...

mikescott said:

mrincredible said:

ridski said:
Just to clarify my personal obsession with the price of burgers is that it's a simple way to compare different places and price points. If the burger, typically the cheapest item on the dinner menu, is outrageously overpriced, then I imagine everything will be and I'd rather stay at home. I personally think $18 for a sandwich is a stupid price point. You might as well spray it gold and charge $90. It's just not worth it.

This the most sensible post ever on MOL and the one I agree with the most.

 Burgers are also the most popular item and even if they overcharge for one, it will still be a top-seller in terms of percentage of sales.  And when a party of four goes out for dinner, odds are at least one person will have "just a burger" while the rest of the party will be more adventurous and try other dishes.  So one person not wanting to over pay for a burger is not going to change the decision to go out and have a nice time.  
Lots of items are overpriced in a restaurant and some offer a good value, but most people go out because they want a good experience, and especially -- good service.  Then the pricing issue of a burger vs a ribeye goes away.  
By the way, a 1/4 pounder with fries  is about $8 at McDonalds and is about $11.00 at the local diners.  So is $18 that far out of line for a better quality burger in a nice restaurant? 

Cheeseburger with fries at the Park Wood is $9.20.  

A regular burger with fries is $8.30.

Greek burger at Park Wood is best burger in SOMA. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.

I wash mine down with a quartino of diet coke.

Smedley said:
Greek burger at Park Wood is best burger in SOMA. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.
I wash mine down with a quartino of diet coke.

 But is their patty formed with a low pressure machine?  (just kidding obviously...I'm going to have to try it)

lanky said:
Not sure if this helps but leftover 1/2 burger from the other night.  *edited to add that mustard on bottom added by the poster...

 ---certainly worth $9.00.  $9.25 with the mustard.