Did the CDC jump the gun?

I disagree w/Murphy keeping the indoor mask mandate for vaccinated people -- however overall I think he has done a solid job wrt COVID so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a few more weeks.  

I'm not comfortable without a mask in any crowded public place, especially something like an indoor stadium where you are sitting in 1 area around the same people for a couple hours....even if they are more than 6 feet away...germs do travel.  Supermarkets aren't too bad, unless you have to stand in a line for more than 5 minutes, but that rarely happens.  In stores, you are mostly just passing by and with low rates, vaccines-its limited exposure risk.  I would be concerned in an outdoor stadium that is crowded.

We've gotten so used to curbside pick up, and its so easy, that I'm not in a rush to wander around stores though I feel pretty safe.  It's not like I enjoy shopping.  I miss live music, movies, museums and ball games but not stores.

Smedley said:

I disagree w/Murphy keeping the indoor mask mandate for vaccinated people -- however overall I think he has done a solid job wrt COVID so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a few more weeks.  

Do we really trust unvaccinated people to wear masks indoors on an honor system?

I don't think so. 

No, but there will always be unvaccinated people, and apparently Covid will continue to exist for the indefinite future. So barring everyone getting vaxxed and/or the 'vid going to zero, when will the risk be low enough to ditch the indoor mask mandate?  CDC and 48 states say that time is now. I think NJ and HI are being unnecessarily nannyish (but again, I think Murph has done a good job on Covid overall).   

sprout said:

No they are not. There are multiple studies that provide evidence that conversations outdoors with someone infected has passed the infection outdoors.

ETA: As a coach of an outdoor sport with chatty kids that like to sit close to their friends, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I let them all go maskless, and then an infection went through the team, through their homes, and out to others.

 I wondered about this too. Not to throw politics in the mix- but wasn’t the outdoor ceremony for Amy Coney Barrett considered a bit of a super spreader? Outdoors but shoulder to shoulder. Lots of cases after that. 

There was a "Rose Garden" outbreak, with some suspected outdoor transmission. But since there was also an indoor unmasked meet-and-greet, IIRC it ended up being inconclusive where the transmission occurred.

Smedley said:

No, but there will always be unvaccinated people, and apparently Covid will continue to exist for the indefinite future. So barring everyone getting vaxxed and/or the 'vid going to zero, when will the risk be low enough to ditch the indoor mask mandate?  CDC and 48 states say that time is now. I think NJ and HI are being unnecessarily nannyish (but again, I think Murph has done a good job on Covid overall).   

right now we've got over a third of adults in NJ unvaccinated, so that's a lot more than a few isolated people wandering around.  I suppose those of us who are vaccinated could just say screw the unvaccinated, let them infect each other.  But I don't think that's good official policy for the state.  And there's a not insignificant chance those unvaccinated people could infect a person who is vaccinated.

let's get to 70%+ vaccinated in the state before we get rid of all the precautions. 

i would be more comfortable with 70% of people including kids vaccinated PLUS unvaccinated people with some immunity from previous infection ( my best guess would be no more tan 5% of the population who actually have immunity without a vaccine) PLUS new people getting vaccinated daily...even if only a small percent before we completely get rid of mask mandates...for schools high schools should be okay since they are all old enough and would have a chance at the vaccine by Sept. 

by at least waiting until even young children are eligible....they at least aren't forced to put them selves at risk.  they (their parents) have a choice to get them vaccinated at that time to protect them.....so until everyone at least has the opportunity to protect themselves, the law should protect them from reckless people who choose not to get vaccinated and don't take any precautions. 

If you are vaccinated you do not have to worry about getting sick from Covid no matter where you are or who is or isn't wearing a mask.   If you are out in public, you face many risks far greater than getting sick from Covid if you have been vaccinated.    There are 3 million people +/- who have been infected with Covid in NJ.   These people have immunity.   Most of them should not have been vaccinated probably, but 1/2 that 3 million are probably younger people who have not been vaxxed yet, so the virus is having a really hard time spreading to people who will get sick (numbers confirming this) 

notupset said:

If you are vaccinated you do not have to worry about getting sick from Covid no matter where you are or who is or isn't wearing a mask.   If you are out in public, you face many risks far greater than getting sick from Covid if you have been vaccinated.    There are 3 million people +/- who have been infected with Covid in NJ.   These people have immunity.   Most of them should not have been vaccinated probably, but 1/2 that 3 million are probably younger people who have not been vaxxed yet, so the virus is having a really hard time spreading to people who will get sick (numbers confirming this) 

 just stop it....every hear of the Yankees? people vaccinated with any of the options have gotten very sick.  We do not know about the level of immunity of people previously infected...again, EVER HEAR OF THE YANKEES?  one of them is infected for the 2nd time.

i get the feeling you are just trolling and trying  to make an a$$ of yourself

It was announced on the news this morning (ABC) that in NJ face coverings are no longer required outside unless the outside space is child-centered: playground, school, children's camp, etc.  Some of us will welcome this development more than others.  It signals that we are much closer to defeating the virus, at least locally, than we were when infection rates and hospitalization rates were higher.  On the other hand, some of us are still very cautious about community spread and will wear a face covering out of doors until they become more comfortable with this latest relaxation of COVID-inspired restrictions.  Today, for the first time in more than a year, I took a walk around my block without wearing a face covering.  It felt strange and it will take some acclimating until I feel comfortable doing it.  That said, it also felt very liberating. We are in a state for transition and hopefully we can continue to move forward in a more hopeful manner.

jimmurphy said:

joan_crystal said:

Tomorrow, NYC begins a much more liberal "masks not needed with some exceptions" policy than we have in NJ.  It will be interesting to see how that effects their infection and hospitalization rates compared t those in NJ. 

We went up to the Catskills over the weekend and I expected lots of non-compliance. I was very surprised to see almost complete mask compliance there, as well as in Warwick, NJ on the way home.

I have found this *not* to be the case at points west of here in NJ. Lots of bare faces, even at the height of the pandemic.

Seems it is not just this liberal enclave where things are still being taken seriously…

The Jersey Shore towns have a LOT of non-compliance with mask mandates.  Even during the peak months last year when we knew a lot less about the virus.

jmitw said:

notupset said:

If you are vaccinated you do not have to worry about getting sick from Covid no matter where you are or who is or isn't wearing a mask.   If you are out in public, you face many risks far greater than getting sick from Covid if you have been vaccinated.    There are 3 million people +/- who have been infected with Covid in NJ.   These people have immunity.   Most of them should not have been vaccinated probably, but 1/2 that 3 million are probably younger people who have not been vaxxed yet, so the virus is having a really hard time spreading to people who will get sick (numbers confirming this) 

 just stop it....every hear of the Yankees? people vaccinated with any of the options have gotten very sick.  We do not know about the level of immunity of people previously infected...again, EVER HEAR OF THE YANKEES?  one of them is infected for the 2nd time.

i get the feeling you are just trolling and trying  to make an a$$ of yourself

notupset - stop spreading disinformation.

notupset said:

If you are vaccinated you do not have to worry about getting sick from Covid no matter where you are or who is or isn't wearing a mask.   If you are out in public, you face many risks far greater than getting sick from Covid if you have been vaccinated.    There are 3 million people +/- who have been infected with Covid in NJ.   These people have immunity.   Most of them should not have been vaccinated probably, but 1/2 that 3 million are probably younger people who have not been vaxxed yet, so the virus is having a really hard time spreading to people who will get sick (numbers confirming this) 

 The extent and duration of immunity arising from asymptomatic cases appears to be limited: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210401/Can-asymptomatic-COVID-19-confer-long-term-immunity.aspx.  I personally know one couple who had Covid, he somewhat roughly she asymptomatically.  Recent blood tests showed that he has robust antibodies and she has none.  So to broadly say all post-Covid people have immunity is misleading.  Also, the risk of getting sick from someone with a variant is uncertain.  The composite scientific view to date as far as I can tell is that the vaccines are somewhat effective against the variants but not as effective as they are against the original version.  You might be protected against a bad case but you might get sick.  At least re the variants, I don't think the data is there to justify your absolute assurance that we can be completely worry-free.

That said, I've been generally optimistic about the trends in NJ an I've been reporting them. Hospitalizations dropped below 800 yesterday.  Th RT rate continues to drop etc.  I'm not a gloom and doomer.

It's not hard.

1. Get vaccinated (unless there are health reasons for not doing so).

2. Until then, wear a mask.

I will be awaiting more definitive book(s) and documentaries on covid that may have to wait five years to get a better hindsight view of the "big picture."   The world is still in the midst of this deadly pandemic and there are plenty of lessons to be learned.    Our genius scientists will hopefully keep vaccines updated against variants.  The best solution so far is to vaccinate as many people as possible.  All countries need to put aside political differences and get the vaccines out to all people.  In addition, it will be interesting to see the public health stories of what worked and what did not work with the benefit of hindsight.   

nohero said:

It's not hard.

1. Get vaccinated (unless there are health reasons for not doing so).

2. Until then, wear a mask.

 we know almost for certain that if the indoor masks mandate is ended, there are **** who will go into places not doing 2 and without having done 1. 

Unfortunately our country has way too many ****. 

Regarding the lifting of mask mandates:

Dropping masks means trusting people about their vaccination status. That's tough.

The frustrating thing about the article is that there is no mention of what specific types of people turned masks into a point of contention. We all know it was generally white conservatives and especially Trumpers. It's typically right wingers who don't believe in actions to support the common good. 

But the NYT won't call out that obvious fact 

ml1 said:

 we know almost for certain that if the indoor masks mandate is ended, there are **** who will go into places not doing 2 and without having done 1. 

Unfortunately our country has way too many ****. 

Ah, new uses for Knights/Knaves problems...

Notupset;

To put my perspective in personal terms rather than with reference to charts or articles, while I have a lot of faith in the vaccine and believe it is driving the great trend we are seeing, there is no way I would spend time in a room with someone I know to be infected with Covid.  Would you be completely unguarded with someone who has Covid and who is coughing and/or having difficulty breathing based on your belief that the vaccinated have absolutely nothing to worry about? I do not even want anti-vaxxers setting in foot in my house, sick or not.

I’m glad NJ is being cautious. I got my first Moderna shot the week they opened vaccinations to the under 55 crowd. I get my second shot tomorrow. So there are plenty of adults who are still not fully vaxxed simply based on how NJ distributed shots. That being said most of my friends (and even my teen’s friends) got their vaccines much earlier!

Q: How do we know if a maskless person is vaccinated

A: Just ask them who won the election.

— Richard Angwin (@RichardAngwin) May 18, 2021

Since the natural reservoir for coivd virus seems to be wild bats, we may never be able to totally eliminate periodic covid pandemics.  We were able to eliminate smallpox because there was not a reservoir of the virus in nature and once we vaccinated enough people, even in remote regions, the plague of smallpox was eliminated from the world.   When we were able to check cows and remove tuberculosis-infected cows from milk production, we were able to greatly reduce tuberculosis in the US.  Note that TB is still one of the major infectious disease killers worldwide.   The best we should be able to do for the foreseeable future with covid virus is to  1. Continue to improve knowledge of viruses.  2.  Have international cooperation. 3 Closely monitor for cases and potential outbreaks. 4.Contain outbreaks as much as possible. 5.  Be ready with vaccines.   

RobertRoe said:

Since the natural reservoir for coivd virus seems to be wild bats, we may never be able to totally eliminate periodic covid pandemics.  [much good stuff snipped out] 

5.  Be ready with vaccines.   

The technology by which the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were developed may very well be what saves us down the road. Once their scientists were able to purify and determine the best antigenic target (the spike protein on COVID-19), the process of isolating the mRNA strand that codes for it was straightforward. Once that was accomplished (like other protein targets in other offending mRNA viruses in the future) plugging it into the liposome-like delivery reagent is relatively simple. Kinda like just putting a different 8-track cassette in the car stereo and heading right over to the clinical trial stages.

The delivery reagents have been used for over a decade and they have been proven safe over and over.

I give tremendous credit to the scientists and their teams who develop the vaccines.   Also, the CRISPER and other DNA techniques offer a lot of hope for cures to many illnesses.   

When I was in college and taking Environmental Science, I took lots of the same courses with students who wanted to be doctors.  These students had to get all As and the tests and grades were marked on a curve.   So, I kind of divided hopeful doctor students into two categories.   1.  Those who regularly stayed up studying till 2 am to learn so they could get As.   2. Those who seemed to be geniuses and cut like a hot knife through butter the courses that the rest of us struggled with.   Looking back, I thank goodness for both these types of students.  

bikefixed said:

The technology by which the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were developed may very well be what saves us down the road. Once their scientists were able to purify and determine the best antigenic target (the spike protein on COVID-19), the process of isolating the mRNA strand that codes for it was straightforward. Once that was accomplished (like other protein targets in other offending mRNA viruses in the future) plugging it into the liposome-like delivery reagent is relatively simple. Kinda like just putting a different 8-track cassette in the car stereo and heading right over to the clinical trial stages.

The delivery reagents have been used for over a decade and they have been proven safe over and over.

 It's kind of amazing that we live in a time when you can say "the process of isolating the mRNA strand that codes for it was straightforward."

If you read about this subject pre-Covid, you would see over and over again statements to the effect that a pandemic was a matter of if not when.  Yet our agencies and pros was so woefully unprepared and paralyzed when this hit.  They really need to write the book for the next one, including not only how to speedily bring the new drugs on line but protocols and procedures for the rest of us to follow.  It seemed like their early wisdom was "wash your hands" written on a piece of toilet paper.