Development in South Orange

RobB said:
Seems to be that narrow parking lot full of semi-abandoned cars.

Otherwise known as "charm" by some

Edited: Sorry, repost after one HUGE martini.

The areaa along the tracks has been industrial and commercial for a long time due to their location along the railroad. Unfortunately for those industries, those areas are not ideal for the current permutation of most industrial or commercial uses for a variety of reasons.

Infill development is hot right now, and it's probably a lot more lucrative for many of the business owners along this Valley to sell out and relocate to locations that potentially better suit them.

michaelgoldberg said:

Juniemoon said:
.
By the time Anthropologie comes to downtown S.O., I will have had to move to some place I can afford to live.

I didn't realize this was the definition of over-gentrification, but apparently there is a Facebook group to make this happen:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1440494009582052/

I actually thought you made that up LOL! I mean we are in between 2 Anthropologies! Is it unreasonable for people to go to the Short Hills Mall when they need their Anthropologie fix? Or one could rough it and take a jeep over to Montclair! And at the Mall there are a dozen other shops one can browse through. And then there is the ease of parking. I like the store, but its rarely packed to the point that I can't get service. So I'm wondering what would motivate them to be here? Maplewood is right near the Mall and West Orange is next to Montclair so is the theory that SO alone can keep the store hopping?

OK so I'm going to start a Facebook page lobbying for Harry Winston. Why should I have to travel when I am jonesing for a tiara.

cramer said:

Juniemoon - I don't think that this will help you, but 10%, or 25 of the units at Third/Valley are "affordable." Under the new rules, a town can't let a developer satisfy its affordable housing requirement by making an affordable housing contribution to another town.

Cramer: I'm very interested in hearing what these "new rules" are and where I can go to get more information.

My understanding, and I could be very wrong, is that PILOTS have something to do with avoiding development of affordable housing. I'm told COLA housing laws are so confused and contrived now that developers and landlords get away without following them.

If the way to get into affordable housing at 3rd & Valley is to get on a list somewhere, I need to find that out, too.

I'd be happy to be one who contributes to the economic diversity of South Orange -- as long as there's still anywhere I can afford to shop.

As part of my livelihood's endeavours involves tracking rental prices, I am astounded by the current rents. Juniemoon's comments are, unfortunately, too true.

South Orange properties near the train station, more often than not not, subsidized by PILOTS are over $3000.00 per month. While this seem a bargain to a Cobble Hill-Park Slope resident. it it insane. However, the irrefutable rule that something is worth what someone will pay.

My concern is that when oversupply is achieved, subsidized by PILOTS, any downtown in the Manhattan economy will result is drop in demand with a drop in rental prices and South Orange could become East Orange South.

ctrzaska said:
They CAN make one to SO, however.

Anthropoligie sucks. I'd rather see an Autozone store.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

ctrzaska said:
They CAN make one to SO, however.

Anthropoligie sucks. I'd rather see an Autozone store.

LOL, you might like it better if they had freewheeling owls loose in the store!

Save you a trip down to Cape May! But then I would want to adopt them out to good homes! I see my new thread on the horizon, Short Hills Mall Exploits Raptors!

truth said:
As part of my livelihood's endeavours involves tracking rental prices, I am astounded by the current rents. Juniemoon's comments are, unfortunately, too true.
South Orange properties near the train station, more often than not not, subsidized by PILOTS are over $3000.00 per month. While this seem a bargain to a Cobble Hill-Park Slope resident. it it insane. However, the irrefutable rule that something is worth what someone will pay.
My concern is that when oversupply is achieved, subsidized by PILOTS, any downtown in the Manhattan economy will result is drop in demand with a drop in rental prices and South Orange could become East Orange South.

Not quite sure I follow your logic here. My commute from SO into midtown is roughly the same as my colleagues who live in some similarly expensive areas of Brooklyn. So, in my very basic analysis, it makes sense that the rents would be roughly similar.

And how does softening rents having to do with turning SO into EO "South?" In this scenario, wouldn't a drop in rents affect the region as a whole? Does this have more to do with the spectre of "the poors" moving into town? Or is this the affordable housing some on this thread are hoping for?

I'm confused. Are lower rents a good thing or a bad thing?

mbaldwin said:
I'm confused. Are lower rents a good thing or a bad thing?

My rent low: Good

Your rent low: Bad

If there is industrial/ commercial property near the railroad tracks lying fallow, why are people trying to force an animal shelter into a residential neighborhood?

RobB said:

mbaldwin said:
I'm confused. Are lower rents a good thing or a bad thing?

My rent low: Good
Your rent low: Bad

Exactly.

tom said:
If there is industrial/ commercial property near the railroad tracks lying fallow, why are people trying to force an animal shelter into a residential neighborhood?

I don't think people are trying to "force" an animal shelter into a residential neighborhood (BTW--its not something filthy like a slaughterhouse.) They just want a shelter--wherever in town it ends up being.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

ctrzaska said:
They CAN make one to SO, however.

Anthropoligie sucks. I'd rather see an Autozone store.

We already have Napa Auto why would we need autozone

Morganna said:

bettyd said:
And the overdevelopment of SO continues, along with the destruction of its character.

+1

+

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

ctrzaska said:
They CAN make one to SO, however.

Anthropoligie sucks. I'd rather see an Autozone store.

I was responding to cramer's comment below:

"Under the new rules, a town can't let a developer satisfy its affordable housing requirement by making an affordable housing contribution to another town."

Maybe there's a difference between Redev and Rehab zones, but while a SO developer may not give $ to East Orange for example, they can give $ back to SO.

Does anyone know how long PILOT's last? How long are new developers exempt from taxes?

What irks me more than anything is that developers who don't live here and don't give an ish about our community, also don't pay taxes. Home owners are once again made to support not only a school system but in essence, new development.

More traffic. Less parking. More students into the school system. And our booby prize? No tax help.

5 years in a designated Rehab zone and 30 in a Redev zone. Someone else here can save me the trouble of looking up which one this falls under.

Re: taxes... In short you will usually get a bigger muni tax revenue stream. BOE would get less than without a PILOT, depending on previous tax status and future projected usage.

mbaldwin said:

My commute from SO into midtown is roughly the same as my colleagues who live in some similarly expensive areas of Brooklyn. So, in my very basic analysis, it makes sense that the rents would be roughly similar.

It all depends on whether you want to live in the eclectic and diverse community that South Orange has been, or you want to live in Short Hills or upper Montclair.

We were attracted here by the purposefully multi-cultural and otherwise diverse community, the housing stock, and a house we could afford within commuting distance of NYC (and this was before Mid-Town Direct was even a glimmer).

What I see happening in Montclair is housing that is a string of "luxury apartments" that all look the same, and a town made up of people who are all basically the same.

I've always been proud to live in these "buffer" towns, that offer a bridge between the very different, but more homogeneous towns to the East and West, and give me the opportunity to enjoy both lifestyles, but still have our own.

I drift back again to the fact that Westport -- 40 years ago a town where Paul Newman could enjoy an undisturbed cup of coffee downtown and the life of an "average citizen" he so treasured -- became the town where they filmed "The Stepford Wives". Unfortunately, what Paul treasured is gone, and the Stepford Wives remain in force.

What I fear is a rapid influx of Stepford wives and husbands -- without children, driving even bigger SUV's, bereft of any appreciation of the history and diversity that this town prides itself on -- who are so different from the neighbors I have now, and who live in a community I no longer recognize.

If you want to live in Brooklyn, move there. It's very different from what we have here.

You want diversity and proximity to NYC and affordable housing, try Clifton. 81 languages spoken here. Free parking at the train station, or $3/day at the Montclair University NJTransit parking deck. And if you're 55+, a great community of 800 homes of very welcoming residents. (Some units in the complex are in Woodland Park.) Never thought I'd move from SO to Clifton, but no regrets. Go figure.

And if anyone thinks that these rents will attract Millennials who thus far have only been able to afford living at home, how does that work? ...Those who don't drive primarily because they can't afford to buy or insure a car (i.e., both of my 20-somethings).

Maybe Lady Gaga will want to be our Paul Newman?

jayjay said:
You want diversity and proximity to NYC and affordable housing, try Clifton.

How many Historic Districts (like the very few we have in SO) are there in Clifton? If there's even one, I might just check it out. Though I'd hate to say goodbye to South Orange.

Juniemoon said:

mbaldwin said:

My commute from SO into midtown is roughly the same as my colleagues who live in some similarly expensive areas of Brooklyn. So, in my very basic analysis, it makes sense that the rents would be roughly similar.

If you want to live in Brooklyn, move there. It's very different from what we have here.

Ah, not really. Brooklyn is quite diverse, to put it mildly. Almost all of my new neighbors in the last couple years have moved from Brooklyn specifically for the nontraditional vibe we have here

Junie-

I'm not sure about historic districts. But check it out on Wikipedia.

kibbegirl said:
Does anyone know how long PILOT's last? How long are new developers exempt from taxes?
What irks me more than anything is that developers who don't live here and don't give an ish about our community, also don't pay taxes. Home owners are once again made to support not only a school system but in essence, new development.
More traffic. Less parking. More students into the school system. And our booby prize? No tax help.

+1.Don't forget how overcrowded the SO pool will get when you want to relax and swim.

mbaldwin said:

Ah, not really. Brooklyn is quite diverse, to put it mildly. Almost all of my new neighbors in the last couple years have moved from Brooklyn specifically for the nontraditional vibe we have here

Of course Brooklyn is quite diverse. I know it well. I moved here from there myself -- 25 years ago.

It's not that I'm afraid the Brooklynites will stop LOOKING for housing here ... I'm afraid that non-traditional vibe will no longer be here....

.....because only those currently living in neighborhoods like Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights will be able to afford it, and they're probably not looking for cookie-cutter apartment developments right on top of the train tracks, but probably the things I was looking for .... parks, good schools, a family town.

Juniemoon said:

mbaldwin said:

Ah, not really. Brooklyn is quite diverse, to put it mildly. Almost all of my new neighbors in the last couple years have moved from Brooklyn specifically for the nontraditional vibe we have here

Of course Brooklyn is quite diverse. I know it well. I moved here from there myself -- 25 years ago.
It's not that I'm afraid the Brooklynites will stop LOOKING for housing here ... I'm afraid that non-traditional vibe will no longer be here....
.....because only those currently living in neighborhoods like Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights will be able to afford it, and they're probably not looking for cookie-cutter apartment developments right on top of the train tracks, but probably the things I was looking for .... parks, good schools, a family town.

Was talking to a real estate pal of mine who said something very interesting: currently, the majority of folks buying our homes are usually moving from town to town and no longer from the borough's (like many of us did). Our neighbors looking to upsize or downsize are the new home buyers.

People we know in Brooklyn, even with kids, aren't interested in the life we have here and the MAIN reason is our property taxes. That and our schools have been in the news a few times. Sigh.

Juniemoon said:

mbaldwin said:

Ah, not really. Brooklyn is quite diverse, to put it mildly. Almost all of my new neighbors in the last couple years have moved from Brooklyn specifically for the nontraditional vibe we have here

Of course Brooklyn is quite diverse. I know it well. I moved here from there myself -- 25 years ago.
It's not that I'm afraid the Brooklynites will stop LOOKING for housing here ... I'm afraid that non-traditional vibe will no longer be here....
.....because only those currently living in neighborhoods like Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights will be able to afford it, and they're probably not looking for cookie-cutter apartment developments right on top of the train tracks, but probably the things I was looking for .... parks, good schools, a family town.

The neighbors that have moved into my rather modest neighborhood in the last couple years enhance the non-traditional vibe. I'm not concerned in the least that South Orange is losing anything that makes it special by building more multifamily housing in the village center. We have parks, good schools and are a family town. The new residents on my block have had almost 10 babies this year.

kibbegirl said:
Does anyone know how long PILOT's last? How long are new developers exempt from taxes?
What irks me more than anything is that developers who don't live here and don't give an ish about our community, also don't pay taxes. Home owners are once again made to support not only a school system but in essence, new development.
More traffic. Less parking. More students into the school system. And our booby prize? No tax help.

PILOTs last 30 years, since according the the resolutions that Michael posted, these are being awarded to "redevelopers". Some misconceptions should be cleared up though.

First, PILOTs do not eliminate the revenue to the Village from the development project. They remove the property from the tax rolls and instead allow for a "Payment in Lieu of Taxes", 95% of which goes to the Village, with 5% going to Essex County and nothing going to the schools. At first glance this may seem like our school system is getting cheated, but is much more complicated than that in reality.

The school system is already 57% of our local taxes, with about 16% going to Essex County and 27% going to the Village. South Orange pays about twice as much per student into the school system as Maplewood does. Our percentage increases every year due to the apportionment ratio that comes from the county, which continues to assign a larger portion of school tax to South Orange annually. This is calculated based on the relative property sale prices annually between the towns. The unspoken truth is that South Orange issues PILOTs, in part, to try to push more of the cost of the school system onto Maplewood. There are other reasons for PILOTs, but this is certainly one driver. Maplewood issues PILOTs for the same reason.

As for the revenue generated by PILOTs, this is where we could do much better. There are a few formulas for PILOT valuation allowed by state law, but the one most often used is a number that is somewhere between 10% and 15% of projected annual revenue, or a number that starts at 20% of full tax rate and ratchets up in increments of 20% every 6 years over a 30 year period, whichever is greater. All of our PILOTs have been at 10% of revenue. In the case of 3rd and Valley, the PILOT is estimated to be around $500-600,000. After about 15 years, we should start to see an increase due to the % of full taxes kicking in. If we had negotiated it at 15% instead of 10%, we could have gotten an extra $200-300,000 in Village revenue every year for the next 15 years. These are all very rough numbers but in the ballpark.

Bottom line is I am OK with PILOTs but we should not be subsidizing high end apartments within a 1 block walk of our train station. We should play hardball and get the best PILOT we can get. In today's market, I'm sure we can get a better deal if we shop around. This is not 2009 anymore.

I think that people moving from town to town or purchasing a larger house in the same town means that people must like living here. They know what the property taxes are (and yes, they are high) and most likely already have children in the schools.