desperately seeking college advisor for the ivies or just below

tjohn said:

Sooner or later you realize that it is the quality of the student and not the quality of the college that is most important.

I'm sure a college has the potential to make a high quality student to a degree. If not, I don't see the point in attending college, because challenge is part of the package.

NizhoniGrrrl said:

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

I already have one in college who got a really nice merit scholarship from her private school, out of state. My second mostly applied to targets with good reputations for her major (and other areas of interest) and she got substantial merit aid from most of her schools. Rutgers was not on their lists.  

My second kid's grades are good (all honors and advanced honors, some AP, not exactly stellar—it's a super competitive class!) but really I think she showed aptitude in her area of study and in leadership. (At least that's my guess, who knows!) 

DaveSchmidt said:

Shhh. Sportsnut's avatar suggests that you and I should play it cool.

Yup. ;-)

apple44 said:

I get that it's a stressful process, and one that has changed significantly over time. However I don't understand why someone needs to defend their decision to at least explore Ivy-level schools, particularly in a community where a handful of students still somehow make the cut every year.

I agree with this.  Why not try for an Ivy League school or the equivalent?  Aim high.  After all, kids do get into these schools and they're not all superhuman or budding Stephen Hawkings.  Have you ever been to the campus at Princeton or walked around Harvard Square in Cambridge?  You can see why students want to go there.  

Checking out or asking about these schools doesn't necessarily mean people have "stars in their eyes" for Ivy League schools or that parents/prospective students will deem their lives over/insignificant if they don't gain admission.  I'm sure there is a small percentage who feel that way.  If so, shame on them, particularly the parents.  

 We all realize that there are many great colleges out there with beautiful campuses where kids can go and receive great educations; have positive, life changing experiences; make life long friendships; and embark on great careers and lives.  Helping your child through the process and visiting many different schools and letting them make the decision is most important.  If an Ivy League school is part of the process and something the child wants to explore, then by all means go for it.  They can only say no and then you move on to the next opportunity, a school that says yes.  All of the parents/kids should know the odds going into it.

My son is interested in Harvard, Princeton, Penn and Columbia.  He's also interested in Rutgers, Michigan, Davidson, Northwestern, NYU, Virginia, Tulane, William & Mary, the service academies, Richmond, and others.  He's a junior now  and knows which schools are stretches and which are more likely.  I think he'd be happy at all of them, and at the ones that are still yet to pop up on his radar screen.

We took our son to visit Princeton last summer.  He was wide eyed at the beauty of the campus and said "I want to go here!"  Two weeks later we were in Virginia at a baseball tournament and we toured UVA, William & Mary, and Richmond.  He was wide eyed at all three and said "I want to go here!"  It's happened at a few other non-ivy schools he's visited.

So, expose them to a lot of different schools, help them in the process, and let them decide where they want to apply and ultimately attend.  If an Ivy League school is in the realm of possibility and they want to explore it, have at it.

Nobody needs to defend their college choice.  I think the argument is for realism.  If you student is solid for Kean, Harvard isn't a reach school and applying would be a waste of time.  That's all.

And the other argument is for a bit of sanity in the sense that not getting into a top university is not the kiss of death or even close.

The OP just asked for assistance with a college advisor for a bright student who is interested in the Ivies or  similar schools.  No other particulars were provided beyond that.  We have not heard from him/her since that post, probably since almost everyone has said "don't bother... why are you obsessing about ivy league schools?!" and two people chimed in saying they do admission interviews for Ivies and nobody they interviewed save for two people ever got in in 17 years. As I stated above, I know six families in my small circle of friends whose kids have gained admission to Ivy League schools the past two years. 

I can only assume the OP's child is not a C+ student who struggles academically and the OP knows Ivy League schools are extremely selective. If his/her child has the grades, test scores and achievements to be considered and wants to go, then apply.  The OP didn't say it would be the "kiss of death" if his/her child didn't get into an Ivy.  It seems as though almost everyone else has assumed that.  

I didn't see it that way.  Some recommendations for counselors were made.  Then there was a general evolution of the discussion into a general discussion of the insanity of the college admissions process.  By contrast, when I was applying to college in 1974, for a very large number of students, Penn State main campus was the pinnacle and there really wasn't any discussion of the really exclusive colleges although some students from my high school did go to top schools.

shoshannah said:

If you are stressed about how to pay for it, it would be best to do a more in-depth college search than what you described above. Very, very few families pay full freight. If you think you could be eligible for financial aid, research the colleges that fund 100% of need (based on their determination of your need). Even if you are not eligible for financial aid, know that many, many colleges give out lots of merit money. A lot of colleges give the precise dollar amounts of merit scholarships on their websites. University of Vermont is one that does that. You need to research those colleges. Be sure to run the Net Price Calculator of every college your son is considering. They are pretty accurate (unless you have a complicated financial situation).

In response to what you wrote above, I offer this:

NizhoniGrrrl said:

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

This is the reason I stress.  As I've argued ad nauseam over the years, 250K per year in NJ is enough to knock you out of most need based financial aid.  And when you factor in personal situations, like divorce, health issues and loss of jobs - it just isn't a lot of money.  So while we are exploring other options it will likely boil down to whichever school gives the most money.  Thankfully, he seems to like all of the schools we've seen so far with the exception of NYU.

DaveSchmidt said:

Shhh. Sportsnut's avatar suggests that you and I should play it cool.

No worries, I'm not nearly as competitive as I used to be.  UNC had been a nemesis throughout the years, this time the ball bounced our way.  Setting aside the academic scandal at UNC, there are some great institutions in both the ACC and Big East.

If one can afford to spend $18,000 on a private college counselor, I doubt they will be eligible for any significant amount of financial aid.  At that point, the most likely scenario is to receive some type of merit scholarship due to academic and/or athletic success.

dg64 said:

DaveSchmidt said:

yahooyahoo said:

That's insane

shoshannah said:

tomdevon said:

Emily Wolper.  http://ewolperinc.com/ She's local (Morristown area), experienced, and great.

I inquired with her. $15,000. And that was a few years ago.

It's easy to scoff, but stakes can be high for a family, and if an adviser steers you to a generous financial aid package or to an overlooked college that captivates your child for $4,000 a year less than the reach she had her heart set on, you might be grateful.

That's still $2,000 short of what this counselor charges now ">  Yes, she told me $18,000 for half of junior year to end of process in senior year. 

DaveSchmidt said:

dg64 said:

ETA: Crossposted with DaveSchmidt who did a much better job of explaining the process ">

Flattery won't get you that last piece of Church's Kitchen chicken.

Hmmm.... I think I'm going for the ribs

sportsnut said:

shoshannah said:

If you are stressed about how to pay for it, it would be best to do a more in-depth college search than what you described above. Very, very few families pay full freight. If you think you could be eligible for financial aid, research the colleges that fund 100% of need (based on their determination of your need). Even if you are not eligible for financial aid, know that many, many colleges give out lots of merit money. A lot of colleges give the precise dollar amounts of merit scholarships on their websites. University of Vermont is one that does that. You need to research those colleges. Be sure to run the Net Price Calculator of every college your son is considering. They are pretty accurate (unless you have a complicated financial situation).

In response to what you wrote above, I offer this:

NizhoniGrrrl said:

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

This is the reason I stress.  As I've argued ad nauseam over the years, 250K per year in NJ is enough to knock you out of most need based financial aid.  And when you factor in personal situations, like divorce, health issues and loss of jobs - it just isn't a lot of money.  So while we are exploring other options it will likely boil down to whichever school gives the most money.  Thankfully, he seems to like all of the schools we've seen so far with the exception of NYU.

I guess what I was trying to convey is this: Did your research of the schools include a vetting of the likelihood of merit aid (unrelated to your income) for your son? Or (and I hope not) are you just crossing your fingers that they will throw money at him because he is an excellent student? Many schools give lots of merit aid. Many schools give little or none. Have you checked the schools' Common Data Sets? Have you checked to see if they have documentation of specific score and GPA cut-offs for different levels of merit aid? Is he applying to at least one college where your KNOW for sure that he will get merit aid that will make the college affordable for you? For many colleges, this is knowable information.

Regarding need-based financial aid: 1) You mentioned medical expenses. That is one of the categories that many colleges will take into consideration (if the college is one that uses the CSS form in addition to the Fafsa). 2) If you plan to take the federal loans that are available to anyone (income doesn't matter), you still have to file the Fafsa. You (actually, it's in your son's name) can take $5,500 freshman year, $6,500 sophomore, and $7,500 in each of junior and senior years.

Even if you think/know your child won't get needs-based aid, you should complete the FAFSA. Some schools require it before offering MERIT aid, I suppose for their own records.

My other advice concerning merit aid is to consider schools outside your geographic area. There are some very fine regional colleges which draw students mainly from their local areas and would love to attract more geographic diversity. A kid from NJ might be very appealing to a college in the upper midwest, say, which doesn't see a lot of applicants from further-away states.

As for the value of $15,000 for college advice, I don't think Emily Wolper is hoping to get many clients at that level. I don't know how many clients she typically gets, but four would make a decent living, and eight per year would be quite a good income. At that rate, clearly, she's not targeting typical people. If your kid has a good chance of getting in and also succeeding and thriving at an Ivy League and if you can afford this, it could be an investment. There is no way I would pay that kind of money for one of my kids for this, even if I had it, which I didn't. But that doesn't make it a bad idea for everyone.

For what it's worth, I haven't hired Emily, and I don't know who has hired her, but I know her from my singing world. I sang in Harmonium with her for several years, and she's a good, decent person. It's a niche kind of work, but it's as legitimate as anything else. More power to her.

And really, the Ivy Leagues are not for everyone. Some people have a worse time there than they would at lower tier places. And if you have to pay full freight, it's rarely a good value.

@sportsnut, the schools that offer the most money to your son are the schools offering the best value. They exist, and he will find at least one, and you will be able to afford it. Just don't get in over your head, and your stress level will fall. There really is a college for everyone. I don't think there is a true need to go to a college that leaves the student or parents in crippling debt, pretty much by definition.

I've been a school counselor for several decades, it has gotten worse, it feels overwhelming and is definitely stressful.  PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE read Frank Bruni's book "Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be: an Antidote to the College Admissions Mania".  It's an excellent reality check, well researched and beautifully written ( also well reviewed)

http://www.amazon.com/Where-You-Not-Who-Youll/dp/1455532703

(And where did Mr. Bruni go to college? Hint: Villanova knocked the school's basketball team out of the NCAA Tournament in 1985, our junior year there.)

shoshannah said:

sportsnut said:

shoshannah said:

If you are stressed about how to pay for it, it would be best to do a more in-depth college search than what you described above. Very, very few families pay full freight. If you think you could be eligible for financial aid, research the colleges that fund 100% of need (based on their determination of your need). Even if you are not eligible for financial aid, know that many, many colleges give out lots of merit money. A lot of colleges give the precise dollar amounts of merit scholarships on their websites. University of Vermont is one that does that. You need to research those colleges. Be sure to run the Net Price Calculator of every college your son is considering. They are pretty accurate (unless you have a complicated financial situation).

In response to what you wrote above, I offer this:

NizhoniGrrrl said:

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

This is the reason I stress.  As I've argued ad nauseam over the years, 250K per year in NJ is enough to knock you out of most need based financial aid.  And when you factor in personal situations, like divorce, health issues and loss of jobs - it just isn't a lot of money.  So while we are exploring other options it will likely boil down to whichever school gives the most money.  Thankfully, he seems to like all of the schools we've seen so far with the exception of NYU.

I guess what I was trying to convey is this: Did your research of the schools include a vetting of the likelihood of merit aid (unrelated to your income) for your son? Or (and I hope not) are you just crossing your fingers that they will throw money at him because he is an excellent student? Many schools give lots of merit aid. Many schools give little or none. Have you checked the schools' Common Data Sets? Have you checked to see if they have documentation of specific score and GPA cut-offs for different levels of merit aid? Is he applying to at least one college where your KNOW for sure that he will get merit aid that will make the college affordable for you? For many colleges, this is knowable information.

Regarding need-based financial aid: 1) You mentioned medical expenses. That is one of the categories that many colleges will take into consideration (if the college is one that uses the CSS form in addition to the Fafsa). 2) If you plan to take the federal loans that are available to anyone (income doesn't matter), you still have to file the Fafsa. You (actually, it's in your son's name) can take $5,500 freshman year, $6,500 sophomore, and $7,500 in each of junior and senior years.

Yes, I am aware of most, if not all of these things (so thank you for mentioning those that I was not aware of).  I had been through the process with my stepson, but it was many years ago and we are in a much different set of circumstances now.

For us a state school would be doable - thus the interest in TCNJ and Rutgers.

DaveSchmidt said:

(And where did Mr. Bruni go to college? Hint: Villanova knocked the school's basketball team out of the NCAA Tournament in 1985, our junior year there.)

Would have had to have been one of the following:

1)Dayton

2)Michigan

3)Maryland

4)UNC

5)Memphis State

6)Georgetown.

BTW, I was a sophomore at the time.

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

Isn't Sender the parent who vehemently fought all deleveling, including elimination of microleveling of students into 10 different math groups in the middle schools?  She argued incessantly that intelligent students were inherently intelligent and shouldn't be place with those below them in any way.  (She didn't say anything about tutoring at the time.) Since then she's been looking for AP tutors and SAT tutors on MOL to get her child into the 700s on SATS, and now Ivy League facilitators.  When she was literally crying at BOE meetings saying that highly intelligent students like her own shouldn't be subjected to be in the same class as a micro-leveled students who were a few points behind, I didn't hear anything about tutoring.  

Lori, My student was micro leveled into level 3 math through those 5th grade tests.  Luckily, he was moved ahead by a teacher against policy despite his B grade in math and and has since taken AP Chemistry in 11th grade (and did quite well) and AP Physics this year without any tutors.  He's done well despite all your crazy advocacy and crying about how your student would be destroyed by being in a class with a student like my son who didn't do well on those 5th grade assessments.  I hope you've rethought your earlier actions with more experience.

sportsnut said:

3)Maryland

FEAR THE TURTLE!!   GO TERPS!!!

joanauer said:

Isn't Sender the parent who vehemently fought all deleveling, including elimination of microleveling of students into 10 different math groups in the middle schools?  She argued incessantly that intelligent students were inherently intelligent and shouldn't be place with those below them in any way.  (She didn't say anything about tutoring at the time.) Since then she's been looking for AP tutors and SAT tutors on MOL to get her child into the 700s on SATS, and now Ivy League facilitators.  When she was literally crying at BOE meetings saying that highly intelligent students like her own shouldn't be subjected to be in the same class as a micro-leveled students who were a few points behind, I didn't hear anything about tutoring.  

Lori, My student was micro leveled into level 3 math through those 5th grade tests.  Luckily, he was moved ahead by a teacher against policy despite his B grade in math and and has since taken AP Chemistry in 11th grade (and did quite well) and AP Physics this year without any tutors.  He's done well despite all your crazy advocacy and crying about how your student would be destroyed by being in a class with a student like my son who didn't do well on those 5th grade assessments.  I hope you've rethought your earlier actions with more experience.

I don't know the OP or you, but this post is incredibly obnoxious.  I have two kids in different levels and can see the benefit of additional challenge for one and additional support for the other.  It's possible to think levels serve a useful purpose without believing that the removal of same would "destroy" students or that children who were not always in Level 5 never could be.

Dave/Jamie, can the personal attack be removed?

ffof said:

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

That's a very odd conclusion to arrive at.

ctrzaska said:

ffof said:

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

That's a very odd conclusion to arrive at.

After scratching my head, too, I gathered that the point was that the student was not so smart to bet everything on the Ivies. 

Like some others who have commented, though, I don't see the point of judgmental barbs about other families' decisions or advocacy.

ctrzaska said:

ffof said:

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

That's a very odd conclusion to arrive at.

The most selective schools turn away many qualified candidates.  That is why every student should apply to a range of colleges from safe schools to reach schools.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that this tippy-top student wasn't very wise, and showed a bit of hubris (or suffered from some very poor academic counselling).

[ETA:  if this friend-of-a-friend story is real...to me it sounds like one of those college admission urban legends]

ctrzaska said:

ffof said:

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

That's a very odd conclusion to arrive at.

ctrzaska said:

ffof said:

I recently heard a story of a tippy top student applying to only ivies, and did not get in to any.  I guess he/she wasn't that smart after all.

That's a very odd conclusion to arrive at.

If I may attempt an interpretation: A 'smart' thing to do would be to apply to at least one safety school.

I think this thread has now gotten into heavy judgement mode, complete with personal attacks, and is no longer useful. Interested to continue the conversation in some other forum, but signing off here. 

Yup, it is societal ranking, in education and wealth. It's bound to get some people stressed and some people testy and snipey.

I think joanauer is referring to the OP being extremely against deleveling, and stating at Board meetings that she did not want her son mixed with the unwashed.

Bruni went to Chapel Hill, turned down Yale.  Each year valedictorians with perfect SAT scores are being DENIED admission at each of the Ivies.  A balanced list is the key to a balanced process.  You need to have reach, match and safe schools and IMHO you should do the same structure for pricing, unless money is no object.