desperately seeking college advisor for the ivies or just below

jr thanks for posting that link. Certainly gives perspective. I recall last year a Millburn mother being outraged because no one at Millburn HS got accepted early admissions for any of the Ivy's.  I was glad she wasn't talking to me.

Sooner or later you realize that it is the quality of the student and not the quality of the college that is most important.

tjohn said:

Sooner or later you realize that it is the quality of the student and not the quality of the college that is most important.

I am in the midst of this process now and I've read through this thread with both a high level of angst and disgust.  I understand the desire to get into an Ivy league school (maybe) but what I don't understand and may never understand is why so much pressure to get into a top tier school.  As Tjohn said and it bears repeating - the school may open more doors, but at the end of the day isn't it really about the quality of the student?  In my nearly (ahem) 30 years in my profession at some of the largest firms and/or companies I don't ever recall working for any boss with an Ivy league education or at least that I'm aware of.  The vast majority have come from the second tier or state schools and many more from colleges in between.  And as if college hasn't gotten expensive enough now people are charging to help find information to give people the slightest edge?  And doesn't this just reek of more income inequality that people are constantly yammering about?  I've worked with and seen people who started out from small schools work their way up and become partners/directors etc. without having an Ivy league education.  In fact, just the opposite.  An Ivy league education does not guarantee success.

And don't get me wrong I want what's best for my kids too.  But when will saner heads prevail?

sportsnut said:

tjohn said:

Sooner or later you realize that it is the quality of the student and not the quality of the college that is most important.

I am in the midst of this process now and I've read through this thread with both a high level of angst and disgust.  I understand the desire to get into an Ivy league school (maybe) but what I don't understand and may never understand is why so much pressure to get into a top tier school.  As Tjohn said and it bears repeating - the school may open more doors, but at the end of the day isn't it really about the quality of the student?  In my nearly (ahem) 30 years in my profession at some of the largest firms and/or companies I don't ever recall working for any boss with an Ivy league education or at least that I'm aware of.  The vast majority have come from the second tier or state schools and many more from colleges in between.  And as if college hasn't gotten expensive enough now people are charging to help find information to give people the slightest edge?  And doesn't this just reek of more income inequality that people are constantly yammering about?  I've worked with and seen people who started out from small schools work their way up and become partners/directors etc. without having an Ivy league education.  In fact, just the opposite.  An Ivy league education does not guarantee success.

And don't get me wrong I want what's best for my kids too.  But when will saner heads prevail?

Honestly, I think it's up to us, as parents, to not get crazy about this stuff.  Find a decent school that's a good fit for your kid and let it go.  Don't allow yourself or your kid to get caught up in it.  I realize this can be difficult, but it truly is possible to ignore the hype and go with what works.  

This might be of interest:

Shut Up About Harvard

A focus on elite schools ignores the issues most college students face.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/shut-up-about-harvard/

This was written by a high school friend.  Although, it is about Korean children specifically, it could apply to anyone.

http://iamkoream.com/a-harvard-alums-cautionary-tale/

When I look at some of the CHS students who have gained admission to the top colleges, I wonder if getting into a top college was a goal or whether they are just that type of student who attacks the challenges in front of them, enjoys a range of activities and is generally energetic and positive.  

My feeling is these days it's better to save your tuition bucks for graduate school and go to a good, but not great undergraduate program .Masters  and above seem to be more necessary now and that school will be a more decisive in future endeavors.

librarylady said:

My feeling is these days it's better to save your tuition bucks for graduate school and go to a good, but not great undergraduate program .Masters  and above seem to be more necessary now and that school will be a more decisive in future endeavors.

This is exactly what our son decided to do and it's so far been an excellent decision.  He's thriving at Rutgers but plans to go elsewhere for graduate school.

#noloans

j_r great article -- this was exactly my experience as an interviewer for Yale. Two kids in 17 years. In the end I cut back to the college fairs, I couldn't take the one-on-ones. 

@sportsnut  While I'm sure that many parents are working with paid advisors to gain a competitive edge at an ivy league school, that's not all they have to offer.  For us it was about identifying schools that would be a great fit for the kid--advisor had us look at a couple of schools I never would have thought of that my kid ended up loving.   The other 90% for us was about keeping the kid on track.  She established a schedule for the process that kept the whole thing under control and really low on stress. Expensive and a huge luxury, but some of the best money I've spent.

The bigger challenge might be identifying a good school for a student who is not an Ivy candidate.

(P.S. to @deborahg -- In a twist that the writer couldn't have forseen when that essay was published in 2007, his youngest is now a sophomore at . . . Harvard.)

I have tried to stay out of this....but I can't help myself... I agree with most of what TJohn has said and I also have the perspective of being an Ivy interviewer.I'm always surprised that so many in this community still have stars in their eyes for the Ivies..Haven't we all met extremely "successful"/happy people from a broad range of academic backgrounds (and even, god forbid, non college graduates)????

librarylady said:

My feeling is these days it's better to save your tuition bucks for graduate school and go to a good, but not great undergraduate program .Masters  and above seem to be more necessary now and that school will be a more decisive in future endeavors.

Agreed.  

It's overwhelming - information overload.  So many schools, so many tours, all schools telling you the same information.  We've looked at 4 schools.  All of the requirements are essentially the same.  Outside of my alma mater, the schools we chose to visit (so far) have included a suburban campus (TCNJ), a city campus (NYU) and a campus that is right outside the city (Stevens).  From this I now know that my son will not be happy with a school in a major city - he really did not like NYU at all.  Knowing what he would like to major in we just did a search of schools offering that major and tried to get a good mix of schools to visit (size, activities, location etc.) and he will choose from those.

I guess gone are the days where the first time you saw the campus was the day your parents dropped you off.

frances said:

@sportsnut  While I'm sure that many parents are working with paid advisors to gain a competitive edge at an ivy league school, that's not all they have to offer.  For us it was about identifying schools that would be a great fit for the kid--advisor had us look at a couple of schools I never would have thought of that my kid ended up loving.   The other 90% for us was about keeping the kid on track.  She established a schedule for the process that kept the whole thing under control and really low on stress. Expensive and a huge luxury, but some of the best money I've spent.

Maybe its just me, but I am more stressed about how to pay for all this than I am about the process.  If my son refuses to stress about it why should I?  He knows its important as do I but I am doing my best to not get caught up in the whole process.

frances - I didn't mean it to be an indictment on parents who choose this route.  I just find the whole process so needlessly full of stress.  People find their way.  If they happen to find their way into a career they love all the better.

I get that it's a stressful process, and one that has changed significantly over time. However I don't understand why someone needs to defend their decision to at least explore Ivy-level schools, particularly in a community where a handful of students still somehow make the cut every year.

@sportsnut 

These two statements don't go together.

sportsnut said:

 Knowing what he would like to major in we just did a search of schools offering that major and tried to get a good mix of schools to visit (size, activities, location etc.) and he will choose from those.

sportsnut said:

Maybe its just me, but I am more stressed about how to pay for all this than I am about the process.

If you are stressed about how to pay for it, it would be best to do a more in-depth college search than what you described above. Very, very few families pay full freight. If you think you could be eligible for financial aid, research the colleges that fund 100% of need (based on their determination of your need). Even if you are not eligible for financial aid, know that many, many colleges give out lots of merit money. A lot of colleges give the precise dollar amounts of merit scholarships on their websites. University of Vermont is one that does that. You need to research those colleges. Be sure to run the Net Price Calculator of every college your son is considering. They are pretty accurate (unless you have a complicated financial situation).

Also, schools in the south, midwest and northwest seem to give more merit aid than ones in the northeast.  

joanauer said:

Also, schools in the south, midwest and northwest seem to give more merit aid than ones in the northeast.  

I think that also depends on where kids in the northeast apply.  We got nothing in merit from Michigan or Florida, probably because lots of kids from around here apply and go there.

sportsnut said:

Maybe its just me, but I am more stressed about how to pay for all this than I am about the process.  If my son refuses to stress about it why should I?  He knows its important as do I but I am doing my best to not get caught up in the whole process.

frances - I didn't mean it to be an indictment on parents who choose this route.  I just find the whole process so needlessly full of stress.  People find their way.  If they happen to find their way into a career they love all the better.

We're getting some advice for the 10 percent reason that frances mentioned because the Fates can have a laugh and turn your pressure-free reassurances that Junior will be happy wherever he goes into a Junior who, without a little outside guidance, might otherwise just throw a dart at the ACC or Big Ten basketball standings. (He'd aim high.)

I mean, you can't really go wrong with the top of the ACC   

Shhh. Sportsnut's avatar suggests that you and I should play it cool.

(Also, the consequences of missing too low could be devastating.)

As someone who just did this, my advice is to let the kid determine their own path, within reason.  On their own, through tours,they can figure out if they want large or small, city or suburb, public or private.  My kid wanted large state schools with good reputation in her intended major, but the flexibility to be able to completely change direction and still have a great orogram.

She got lucky. She had one school that was her favorite from when she visited.  She would have picked this school, even if she got into the Ivy she applied to.  if she hadnt gotten in to her top choice we had several choices of schools that would have been goodfits.

As for paying, thats a tough call. We saved for years because due to job situations, we dont have steady, reliable income.  When you pre-save, its much easier to tell your kid you have a budget and that anything over would need to be supplemented by them either by loans or jobs.

if money is really an issue, I would suggest lookng at both Ole Miss, and Alabama.Both have very good honors porgrams, house the honors kds separately.  Both schools are really trying to up their game in recruiting, and give huge amounts of merit aid, to the point you are not paying anything out of pocket.

I know people in MOL tend to see the south as a vast populace of illiterate republicans, but the culture is much different in university towns.

at the end of it all, they are adults,  and if you live with a Sr, they think they already ARE adults.

 this is the first big decision they have to make.  They get to learn you dont always get what you want and usually you are going to have to make accomodations to get what you want, whether its passing on a dream school that you cant afford, or having to work during the year.

I miss the ACC, I cant taunt my relatives. anc all my SEC folk are as one with the Gator Nation

campbell29 said:

if money is really an issue, I would suggest lookng at both Ole Miss, and Alabama.Both have very good honors porgrams, house the honors kds separately.  Both schools are really trying to up their game in recruiting, and give huge amounts of merit aid, to the point you are not paying anything out of pocket.

I know people in MOL tend to see the south as a vast populace of illiterate republicans, but the culture is much different in university towns.

Ain't that the truth.  I would be happy to have my daughter go to school at Ole Miss or 'Bama if for no other reason to learn that the South is not some alien land.

DaveSchmidt said:

We're getting some advice for the 10 percent reason that frances mentioned because the Fates can have a laugh and turn your pressure-free reassurances that Junior will be happy wherever he goes into a Junior who, without a little outside guidance, might otherwise just throw a dart at the ACC or Big Ten basketball standings. (He'd aim high.)

Yes, this use of college counselors makes sense to me.  Unfortunately, the guidance staff at CHS don't have the time to help every student figure things out.

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

I don't really know anything about U of Maine other than its far from NJ and cold, but they now offer NJ residents in state tuition.

There are out of state schools that offer merit aid .  College confidential usually has a pretty exhaustive list as a starting point.  Use the Net price calculators on most schools websites as well.  Just like your child should have academic safeties , don't forget to include financial safeties to your child's list.

NizhoniGrrrl said:

Most schools that give substantial aid for financial need require income $125K or less and I imagine applicants with stellar grades. News flash! If your income is $200k and you live in NJ with more than one kid then paying $25-45 out of pocket, in addition to your kid taking loans, is going to be a killer. Wish I could get my kid to look at Rutgers but all the best programs for him are out of state.

For the record:  Grades are irrelevant to need-based financial aid. Also: Specific income numbers can vary quite substantially. Some schools look at assets; others do not. There are no blanket statements to be made except for this one: Run the net price calculators for every, single school you are considering.

Also remember: The system is in the process of changing from a one-year look-back to a two-year. Students applying for financial aid for the 2017-2018 school year will submit income taxes from 2015, not 2016—even if they submitted the 2015 income number for aid in the 2016-2017 year. As for assets, current assets at the time of application will be considered (for schools that look at assets).

Regarding the second part  of your post: There are many options—even out of state—that can come out cheaper than Rutgers. Merit aid is a wonderful thing. Look at colleges where the student is above the 75th percentile in scores.