Democrats, Can We Agree?

I wonder if he is still programmed by the Koch Brothers as he was during the primary.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/marc-short-marco-rubio-219664

This affability gap sounds serious.

imonlysleeping said:

Hillary is significantly more experienced and accomplished than her husband was when he was the Democratic nominee. To dismiss her as nothing more than the wife of a former president seems wrongheaded at best. 

She may be the most experienced candidate ever. Not that it's the only important attribute. Obama was one of the least experienced, and in my view, he has done a good job.

I agree about the misogyny. Qualities that are prized in men are disliked in women. Let's check ourselves.

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

I fail to see any similarity between the two situations. What would Bernie supporters be protesting? The fact that more people voted for Hillary than their candidate? How does one protest that? It would be like Golden State Warriors fans staging a sit-in under the basket after game 7 because they "disagreed with" the final score. 

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

I guess it will depend on whether or not the Sanders camp acts like winners because they have a seat at the table and successfully influenced policy or if they act like two year-olds angry because they didn't get their way.

tjohn said:

I guess it will depend on whether or not the Sanders camp acts like winners because they have a seat at the table and successfully influenced policy or if they act like two year-olds angry because they didn't get their way.

Are you suggesting that the House Democrats are acting like two year-olds?

Bernie is facing reality.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/bernie-sanders-not-democratic-nominee-224671

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

Goodness, Paul, don't you think it will depend on  the specifics of what is being protested?  

I don't automatically respect protesters for protesting.  I respect protesters who are fighting for a cause I believe in.  Otherwise, all hail Westboro Baptist Church.

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

I guess it will depend on whether or not the Sanders camp acts like winners because they have a seat at the table and successfully influenced policy or if they act like two year-olds angry because they didn't get their way.

Are you suggesting that the House Democrats are acting like two year-olds?

Not really.  Gun control is enjoying favorable winds at the moment and they should take full advantage of the opportunity to get the Reps on the ropes.

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

I've struggled with myself how to respond to this.  Clearly its a ridiculous post regarding something as amazing as what is occurring as I write this. 

1) talking about only the event of the sit-in, please someone tell me the last time they saw this in congress?  I dont remember anything this radical occurring amongst congress people.  it strikes directly at republican interests and highlights exactly who they are. 

2) talking about conflating this important action with nonsense about Sanders supporters at the convention is seriously weird.  not just out of left-field weird, but make no sense whatsoever weird.  

Face it, Sanders lost, he ran a good race but he lost.   

"They should reflect the votes of the people in their states. We have won states with 70, 80 percent of the vote where superdelegates are going to vote for my opponent," Sanders said. "That's not terribly democratic."

The only places he got those numbers (outside of Vermont) were in caucuses - the most undemocratic of primaries.

LOST said:

Bernie is facing reality.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/bernie-sanders-not-democratic-nominee-224671

imonlysleeping said:

I fail to see any similarity between the two situations. What would Bernie supporters be protesting? The fact that more people voted for Hillary than their candidate? How does one protest that? It would be like Golden State Warriors fans staging a sit-in under the basket after game 7 because they "disagreed with" the final score. 

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

 The similarity starts with the fact that the Republicans have a big majority in the House and the minority House Democrats are protesting the majority's decisions on the House floor.  Where the similarity goes from there depends on how the majority at the convention decides to wield its power.

hoops said:

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

I've struggled with myself how to respond to this.  Clearly its a ridiculous post regarding something as amazing as what is occurring as I write this. 

1) talking about only the event of the sit-in, please someone tell me the last time they saw this in congress?  I dont remember anything this radical occurring amongst congress people.  it strikes directly at republican interests and highlights exactly who they are. 




2) talking about conflating this important action with nonsense about Sanders supporters at the convention is seriously weird.  not just out of left-field weird, but make no sense whatsoever weird.  

Face it, Sanders lost, he ran a good race but he lost.   

The Democrats lost the fight for the House. But they're still fighting.

I won't take Bernie seriously until he weighs in on the Maplewood post office.

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

I guess it will depend on whether or not the Sanders camp acts like winners because they have a seat at the table and successfully influenced policy or if they act like two year-olds angry because they didn't get their way.

Are you suggesting that the House Democrats are acting like two year-olds?

Is your obtuseness willful or otherwise?

The majority at the convention won't be making a decision. It will be implementing the will of the people after a long primary process. The House Republicans are thwarting the will of the people, who overwhelmingly support common-sense gun legislation. No similarity whatsoever. 

paulsurovell said:

imonlysleeping said:

I fail to see any similarity between the two situations. What would Bernie supporters be protesting? The fact that more people voted for Hillary than their candidate? How does one protest that? It would be like Golden State Warriors fans staging a sit-in under the basket after game 7 because they "disagreed with" the final score. 

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

 The similarity starts with the fact that the Republicans have a big majority in the House and the minority House Democrats are protesting the majority's decisions on the House floor.  Where the similarity goes from there depends on how the majority at the convention decides to wield its power.

Sanders has secured a seat at the policy making table.  He has an opportunity to have things he believes in added to the platform.  He has achieved much more than he dreamed off a year ago.  And he can do this in a collaborative way.

Or he can be the old, scold saying "You kids get off of my lawn" and he will mess it up for everybody.

tjohn said:

Sanders has secured a seat at the policy making table.  He has an opportunity to have things he believes in added to the platform.  He has achieved much more than he dreamed off a year ago.  And he can do this in a collaborative way.

Or he can be the old, scold saying "You kids get off of my lawn" and he will mess it up for everybody.

I think he will be fine (though his choice of Cornell West for the platform committee doesn't reflect well on him). Bernie's acolytes are another story, though.

Elizabeth Warren is now taking part in the sit-in. Where's Bernie? (Rhetorical question.)

tjohn said:

Sanders has secured a seat at the policy making table.  He has an opportunity to have things he believes in added to the platform.  He has achieved much more than he dreamed off a year ago.  And he can do this in a collaborative way.

Or he can be the old, scold saying "You kids get off of my lawn" and he will mess it up for everybody.

I'm predicting the former. I think he's a pretty reasonable person. As you said, his success is greater than he had predicted. He has succeeded in many ways already, and I think progressive ideals can continue this momentum, thanks largely to his candidacy.

His speeches, while monotonous, have been pretty clear. I think he can use that clarity of speech to convince those who favored him to vote for Clinton.

dave23 said:

I won't take Bernie seriously until he weighs in on the Maplewood post office.

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

I guess it will depend on whether or not the Sanders camp acts like winners because they have a seat at the table and successfully influenced policy or if they act like two year-olds angry because they didn't get their way.

Are you suggesting that the House Democrats are acting like two year-olds?

Is your obtuseness willful or otherwise?

That's a rather obtuse remark.

imonlysleeping said:

The majority at the convention won't be making a decision. It will be implementing the will of the people after a long primary process. The House Republicans are thwarting the will of the people, who overwhelmingly support common-sense gun legislation. No similarity whatsoever. 

paulsurovell said:

imonlysleeping said:

I fail to see any similarity between the two situations. What would Bernie supporters be protesting? The fact that more people voted for Hillary than their candidate? How does one protest that? It would be like Golden State Warriors fans staging a sit-in under the basket after game 7 because they "disagreed with" the final score. 

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

 The similarity starts with the fact that the Republicans have a big majority in the House and the minority House Democrats are protesting the majority's decisions on the House floor.  Where the similarity goes from there depends on how the majority at the convention decides to wield its power.

How do you know that a majority of the American people support gun control legislation? (Leading question -- assuming you're part of the newly-formed "polls don't mean anything" faction)

imonlysleeping said:

Elizabeth Warren is now taking part in the sit-in. Where's Bernie? (Rhetorical question.)

I think he's waiting for Hillary (nothing prevents a former Senator from sitting in)

paulsurovell said:

How do you know that a majority of the American people support gun control legislation? (Leading question -- assuming you're part of the newly-formed "polls don't mean anything" faction)

Oh, that pesky context thing again.  National polls on the Trump-Clinton race don't mean anything at this point.

The majority of Americans probably have no dea what Due Process is.

tjohn said:

paulsurovell said:

How do you know that a majority of the American people support gun control legislation? (Leading question -- assuming you're part of the newly-formed "polls don't mean anything" faction)

Oh, that pesky context thing again.  National polls on the Trump-Clinton race don't mean anything at this point.

Indeed, there is a distinction between using polls to try to parse the support of two candidates (because of its mutability over the course of a campaign, and because the margin of error often gets in the way) and using polls to try to gauge general public support for one thing or another. 

Here is the house call in number as published on the live feed from the sit in.

202 - 224- 3121

I am not a member of any faction regarding polls, pro or con. A well-executed poll with neutral questions is an excellent snapshot of public opinion at the moment the poll is taken. Polls consistently show that a large majority of Americans, including gun owners, support background checks and other common-sense regulations. That's very different from a presidential-election poll taken six months ahead of election day during a heated primary, which tells you basically nothing. 

paulsurovell said:

imonlysleeping said:

The majority at the convention won't be making a decision. It will be implementing the will of the people after a long primary process. The House Republicans are thwarting the will of the people, who overwhelmingly support common-sense gun legislation. No similarity whatsoever. 

paulsurovell said:

imonlysleeping said:

I fail to see any similarity between the two situations. What would Bernie supporters be protesting? The fact that more people voted for Hillary than their candidate? How does one protest that? It would be like Golden State Warriors fans staging a sit-in under the basket after game 7 because they "disagreed with" the final score. 

paulsurovell said:

House Democrats, mostly Hillary supporters, stage sit-in on House floor, over the majority's refusal to bring gun control legislation to the floor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/politics/house-democrats-stage-sit-in-to-push-for-action-on-gun-control.html?_r=0

Will Hillary supporters -- and the media -- show respect for Bernie's supporters at the Democratic convention if they similarly choose to protest actions of the majority?

 The similarity starts with the fact that the Republicans have a big majority in the House and the minority House Democrats are protesting the majority's decisions on the House floor.  Where the similarity goes from there depends on how the majority at the convention decides to wield its power.

How do you know that a majority of the American people support gun control legislation? (Leading question -- assuming you're part of the newly-formed "polls don't mean anything" faction)

Here is a commentary from Ben Goldacre, an anti-Brexit Brit which, I think, it relevant to our current political environment.

I tried to ignore the EU referendum but idiots blaming foreigners, for problems we created, made me too cross.

Here are my reasons for voting Remain.

1. A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.

The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control. You couldn’t get political agreement from the people in one family, one pub, or one bus. You can’t “vote them out”, you’ve never done that, stop pretending you can do it in the future. Politics is about compromise: terrible, soul-destroying, mature compromise with other people, most of whom are awful. Your local council don’t represent your views and values any better than your MEP.

2. Immigration is just going to happen. 

In or out of the EU, there will be lots, and lots of immigration: bad luck if you don’t like that. We’re perfectly able to control non-EU immigration, right now, and yet no government ever does. They never will. This is not the fault of the EU, it’s more complicated than that. Deal with it. Immigration will never stop.

3. “Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault. 

This is not the fault of the EU. It’s your fault. It’s happened slowly. The UK has failed to build houses, failed to train hospital staff, failed to invest in the NHS, failed to build schools. Your country. Your UK. Your government. Your fault. Nobody else. The NHS is staffed by immigrants, they keep it running, they will save your life and build your house. Don’t try to blame them for things that are your fault.

4. The EU is a good shot at preserving peace. 

Remember that news story about the British generals who think we should leave the EU because NATO preserves peace, not the EU? These are bad generals who only know about guns. Russia right now is an odd, aggressive country. But they didn’t show up at the Ukrainian border with tanks, out of the blue: they manufactured a social and economic pretext before they rolled in. A strong EU makes this kind of pretext harder to contrive. You want to be good close friends with all your neighbours, and their neighbours, as far as the eye can see. That’s how you hold a line that preserves peace: by sharing friendship, sharing trade, and sharing grumbles about crap admin in Brussels. You do not preserve peace by buying and using weapons.

5. Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers. 

The Brexit campaign talk about “taking control”, about “building an optimistic future” for yourself. These are things you say to losers: to people who feel they have no control, or a gloomy future. It’s the language of crap self-help books in airport bookshops. You are better than that.

6. Countries come and go.

Right now, people talk about Eastern Europeans like they’re biologically destined to be parasites, because their countries are poorer, and some of their citizens travel for work. That could change, really fast. Polish people are not a biologically inferior race: they lived under communism for four decades, and now they’re catching up. Poland has the fastest growing economy in Europe (faster than Central Europe, faster than the EU-15). Warsaw is full of skyscrapers. Be nice. Make friends now. Cement those ties to a large, fast growing European economy with a rich cultural history.

7. Brexit will hurt the economy. 

This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.

Ben Goldacre

Although the cameras are off in the House, there is a live feed on C Span. Also on FB Rep Beto O'Rourke's D Tx.