Colin Kaepernick files Collusion Grievence
May have been a perfect tool to get attention, but not necessarily the attention to the issue in which you are protesting.
Do you believe his protest or the other players who recently joined in Got many people to look at the so called police injustices? Or more people to pay attention to him/them disrespecting the Flag?
I don't know how to find an accurate measure on those numbers, so I can't answer the question. Such protests always have a reactionary backlash, and nowadays they also get dosed with meta-analysis in an effort to change the subject. That doesn't make the message any less important.
( Nice "so called," by the way.)
ml1 said:
but where do you get with someone by saying - "racist!" Why not address what was said or written, instead of calling names. You can say that a statement is racist or seems racist, and maybe get less defensiveness.
Selecting the proper strategy probably depends on the amount of skin you have in the game. For those at one end of the spectrum calling out racism loud, strong and consistently and then getting up and running or fighting will keep you alive. For others it's just fodder for chat rooms and twitter battles.
However, it's a sure bet that NOT calling out racism won't ever be an effective way of fighting it. So, with that in mind most people I know couldn't care less about offending racists by calling them out, especially when remaining silent only allows their poison to spread.
EricBurbank said:
May have been a perfect tool to get attention, but not necessarily the attention to the issue in which you are protesting.
Do you believe his protest or the other players who recently joined in Got many people to look at the so called police injustices? Or more people to pay attention to him/them disrespecting the Flag?
Kaepernick’s teammate Chris Borland did things your way. Whatever the blowback, yes, more people are paying attention to Kaepernick’s message than they are to Borland’s.
ml1 said:
the fact is that Kaepernick told everyone what his protest was about. And he made it clear he meant no disrespect to the flag. So people had to consciously choose to ignore what he said and consciously make it about the flag when it wasn't.
I'm on your side. That said, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you make it sound above. First, to me, Kaepernick's original statement “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color” is not definitively clear that he meant no disrespect to the flag. Second, I think there is a distinction between his "protest" and his "boycott." I agree it's undeniable what his PROTEST is and was about, and indeed many people sadly choose to ignore that fact. But, he chose to exercise his protest via a specific BOYCOTT of standing for the national anthem. Many Americans have an independent issue with boycotting standing for the anthem -- for whatever the underlying protest may be -- whereby the two are indeed separate issues, imho. The choice/method of BOYCOTT -- not protest -- is not insignificant to many people in this country. It's not necessarily the bigger issue, and I agree maybe it shouldn't be made to BE the bigger issue by many, but I do respect that it's a separate and not illegitimate issue to some people. Respectfully, that's me.
EricBurbank said:
ml1,
Thank you for your honesty and sensibility.
Drummerboy made a list on another thread in which he decided if you agreed with any of the statements he listed, you were a racist. How does one decide by a list that you are a racist?
A serious question - why when any conversation pertaining to racism comes up is it always the white person who is racist? Are there no such thing as black racists? Or even white people being racist against white people?
Why is it ok for black people to say they fear being shot and killed when pulled over by the police, yet if a white person( such as in Smedleys scenario of just locking their car doors) says they fear being shot or killed in a black crime neighborhood, they are considered the racists. Yet statistics tell you more white people are shot or killed by black people than black people shot and killed by the police.
My point being, that it is always ok to claim racism against white people but never ok to point out when a black person does something wrong. If you do, you are a racist.
This is where there is a big disconnect. If people want to consider me a racists so be it. I can't change their minds, but the people who know me, black people included know it's the furthest from the truth and I am ok with that. Filmbro amongst others on this board love to point out things I say that can be construed as racist yet never want to have an honest open conversation where they are ready to listen to opposing views with an open mind.change I have admitted on other threads when I have said something over the line and apologized for saying them. Can't say its been a two way street.
I think there's far too much to unpack here in one lifetime. I'm going to suggest that you give some thought to what Racism is- not prejudice, discrimination or bias, but racism. There is a difference and some of your comments suggest that you may not be clear on the distinction.
Racism in our society is older than the flag you're so enamored of and older than the pledge you consider sacred. White racism in America is created and maintained by the institutions that form the pillars of American society for the benefit of white people- specifically rich white men. It is pervasive and functions as part of a complex social system that creates and maintains white supremacy and white privilege. That, in case you're wondering, is not an 'attack', or my opinion- it's history.
Can Black people be racist? No, because technically racism requires the wherewithal to create restrictive social structures based on race and then enforce those edicts. Black folks can certainly be biased or prejudiced, but as a group they cannot create or enforce doctrine based on racial differences.
White folks 'racist' against other white folks? Yes. Prior to the creation of whiteness as a social construct several groups of European immigrants were looked down on by Americans who considered themselves Anglo Saxons. It took several generations for Poles, Irish, Italians and Jews to become 'white'.
When you develop a more complete picture of this country's history and the advent and implementation of institutionalized racism, you'll be able to answer many of your own questions.
Until then, you're going to trap yourself with wildly illogical comments like "more white people are shot or killed by Black people than Black people shot and killed by the police". What does that even mean Eric? Does it mean that until fewer white people are killed by Black criminals, all Black people should expect to die at the hands of law enforcement without an arrest or a trial? Does that really make sense to you? Do you see what I mean? That's nonsensical. You ask why it's OK for Black people to say that they fear getting shot and killed by police when they get pulled over. It's OK because Black people get shot and killed when they get pulled over by police Eric and NOBODY wants to get shot and killed when they get pulled over by the police. Now I have no idea how or why you're trying to compare that that to white people locking their doors in a bad neighborhood but it must make sense to you.
I think you may need to think more about the big picture complaints you hear from most African Americans. Kaepernick is not protesting white people- he's protesting white racism. He works for and with and depends on white people to make a living. His issue is with structural white racism in law enforcement that routinely subverts Black lives and puts them at risk. The complaints against the Maplewood PD and their actions were based on racist attitudes and practices that were in evidence at that police department. Those practices were implemented because of institutionalized racism that automatically discounts the lives and rights of Black people- in this case children. The officers involved might still be great Dads and fun to get a beer with but on the 4th they allowed their behavior to be dictated by racist ideology and pointing that out is necessary to prevent it from happening again.
exactly. We're dealing with a confounded mind that throws up a ton of contradictory or meaningless "facts" about the world in order to justify his beliefs. Every sentence in that post of his needs its own post in response, and mere mortals don't have the time for that.
And News Flash ... having Black friends doesn't balance out and negate racist behavior. Though Mr. Burbank seems to think it does, based on the number of times he's lauded himself for it.
And another thing - if you think behaviors and beliefs, such as racism, can't be sussed out based on the answers to questions, then, well, let's just say pencils come in various sharpnesses...
flimbro said:
EricBurbank said:I think there's far too much to unpack here in one lifetime. ...
... blah blah blah ....
Train_of_Thought said:
The choice/method of BOYCOTT -- not protest -- is not insignificant to many people in this country. It's not necessarily the bigger issue, and I agree maybe it shouldn't be made to BE the bigger issue by many, but I do respect that it's a separate and not illegitimate issue to some people.
If my discomfort with the means of protest is keeping me from considering the point of it, how hard am I really trying?
DaveSchmidt said:
Train_of_Thought said:
The choice/method of BOYCOTT -- not protest -- is not insignificant to many people in this country. It's not necessarily the bigger issue, and I agree maybe it shouldn't be made to BE the bigger issue by many, but I do respect that it's a separate and not illegitimate issue to some people.
If my discomfort with the means of protest is keeping me from considering the point of it, how hard am I really trying?
I don't disagree. Many such folks don't want to consider the underlying protest -- to be sure.
"Can Black people be racist? No, because technically racism requires the wherewithal to create restrictive social structures based on race and then enforce those edicts."
Come on, man.
The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Black people can be racist , just like white people can.
I think it's a case of upside down priorities when people revere the symbol more than the actual principles it represents.
And let's not ignore that polls show that this outrage is overwhelmingly among white people. The evidence is pretty strong that a lot of people want to pretend the real issue behind the protests doesn't exist.
Train_of_Thought said:
Many Americans have an independent issue with boycotting standing for the anthem -- for whatever the underlying protest may be -- whereby the two are indeed separate issues, imho. The choice/method of BOYCOTT -- not protest -- is not insignificant to many people in this country.
this is true.
I wish people would realize how unAmerican, and how authoritarian forced loyalty pledges are. Admittedly, it's regular people and not the government enforcing these loyalty and patriotic gestures. But people should be standing and saluting only because they want to, not because they feel threatened if they don't. Frankly, I don't feel like any of us have a choice if we're out at the ballpark or football stadium. I wouldn't even think about kneeling during the anthem in the stands at a football game, out of concern for my physical safety. And that to me is a far more disturbing commentary about those so-called "patriots" than it is about football players protesting during the anthem.
Smedley said:
"Can Black people be racist? No, because technically racism requires the wherewithal to create restrictive social structures based on race and then enforce those edicts."
Come on, man.
The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Black people can be racist , just like white people can.
No actually they can't, man.
EricBurbank has repeatedly asked to have an honest conversation about racism. I'm attempting to do that. What you're doing is dumbing down that conversation and that's not of any interest to me. Racism does not equal mean people saying mean things about other people who don't look like them. If it did, then all we'd have to do is 'be nice' and all our problems would be solved. I think that basic distinction is what you're missing.
Like Eric, you're simplifying a sprawling, complex issue in an attempt to create a scenario where marginalized groups are on equal footing with white America- the only difference being how we 'feel' about each other. That is patently false and anyone with the capacity for critical thinking and even a elementary school level knowledge of American history knows it's false.
I may believe my race is superior- but unless I have the power to support and enforce that belief, it's only a thought and it goes no further than my head and my actions and those I may influence.
However if I believe my race is superior and I can pass laws that support and bolster that belief and incarcerate people based on that belief and murder people based on that belief and colonize people based on that belief- what is just a prejudicial thought for others becomes the bedrock of a society and a self sustaining system of oppression. That is what racism is and that system is what Kaepernick is protesting.
flimbro said:
Smedley said:
"Can Black people be racist? No, because technically racism requires the wherewithal to create restrictive social structures based on race and then enforce those edicts."
Come on, man.
The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Black people can be racist , just like white people can.
No actually they can't, man.
EricBurbank has repeatedly asked to have an honest conversation about racism. I'm attempting to do that. What you're doing is dumbing down that conversation and that's not of any interest to me. Racism does not equal mean people saying mean things about other people who don't look like them. If it did, then all we'd have to do is 'be nice' and all our problems would be solved. I think that basic distinction is what you're missing.
Like Eric, you're simplifying a sprawling, complex issue in an attempt to create a scenario where marginalized groups are on equal footing with white America- the only difference being how we 'feel' about each other. That is patently false and anyone with the capacity for critical thinking and even a elementary school level knowledge of American history knows it's false.
I may believe my race is superior- but unless I have the power to support and enforce that belief, it's only a thought and it goes no further than my head and my actions and those I may influence.
However if I believe my race is superior and I can pass laws that support and bolster that belief and incarcerate people based on that belief and murder people based on that belief and colonize people based on that belief- what is just a prejudicial thought for others becomes the bedrock of a society and a self sustaining system of oppression. That is what racism is and that system is what Kaepernick is protesting.
So this begs the question, can any other "race" be racist, or is it just white people? I'm not talking about America, but globally.
Filmbro, thank you for being willing to have an open conversation. But Smedley gave the definition of racism and you were quick to say black people couldn't be racist.
I never said nor thought my race was superior to another race. Do the white people have a long way to go on many issues? Yes. But are other races perfect?
And how does one having racist thoughts make them ok, but if someone expresses a perceived racist thought they are at the least a moderate racist?
It's not "ok" in a general sense. It just makes you not racist. Racism is a BEHAVIOR. A thought is not a behavior. If no one acted on their racist thoughts, there would be no racism. There would just be a lot of individual cognitive dissonance. But racism, with all of its attendant horrors, would not exist.
EricBurbank said:
....
And how does one having racist thoughts make them ok, but if someone expresses a perceived racist thought they are at the least a moderate racist?
Ok film bro, we will have to agree to disagree. i hardly think I'm "dumbing down" the conversation, rather I'm framing it in the clearest and most direct terms. i believe I have the capacity for critical thinking, and I have at least an elementary school knowledge of American history, and I believe people of all races can be racist. I don't see how one can look at the dictionary definition of racism and say people of a certain race cannot be racist. But, you have your opinion and I have mine.
Personally, the dictionary wouldn't be my go-to source in this discussion.
EricBurbank said:
Filmbro, thank you for being willing to have an open conversation. But Smedley gave the definition of racism and you were quick to say black people couldn't be racist.
I never said nor thought my race was superior to another race. Do the white people have a long way to go on many issues? Yes. But are other races perfect?
And how does one having racist thoughts make them ok, but if someone expresses a perceived racist thought they are at the least a moderate racist?
Eric, your wasting your time, it seems as soon as you disagree with a point of race with flimbro and don't agree with him you will automatically labeled a racist. And the statement of black's can not be racists is beyond believable. There's racists of every color but I guess because he's black he doesn't see it with (some) of the black community. I also love the statement of every "Elementary school level kid that knows American History" but yet history is trying to be rewritten because it offends people.
Thanks for the helpful feedback. Based on your go-to sources, do you believe black people can be racist?
DaveSchmidt said:
Personally, the dictionary wouldn't be my go-to source in this discussion.
ridski said:
flimbro said:
Smedley said:
"Can Black people be racist? No, because technically racism requires the wherewithal to create restrictive social structures based on race and then enforce those edicts."
Come on, man.
The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Black people can be racist , just like white people can.
No actually they can't, man.
EricBurbank has repeatedly asked to have an honest conversation about racism. I'm attempting to do that. What you're doing is dumbing down that conversation and that's not of any interest to me. Racism does not equal mean people saying mean things about other people who don't look like them. If it did, then all we'd have to do is 'be nice' and all our problems would be solved. I think that basic distinction is what you're missing.
Like Eric, you're simplifying a sprawling, complex issue in an attempt to create a scenario where marginalized groups are on equal footing with white America- the only difference being how we 'feel' about each other. That is patently false and anyone with the capacity for critical thinking and even a elementary school level knowledge of American history knows it's false.
I may believe my race is superior- but unless I have the power to support and enforce that belief, it's only a thought and it goes no further than my head and my actions and those I may influence.
However if I believe my race is superior and I can pass laws that support and bolster that belief and incarcerate people based on that belief and murder people based on that belief and colonize people based on that belief- what is just a prejudicial thought for others becomes the bedrock of a society and a self sustaining system of oppression. That is what racism is and that system is what Kaepernick is protesting.
So this begs the question, can any other "race" be racist, or is it just white people? I'm not talking about America, but globally.
Really?
Yes ridski. If the conditions are correct any 'race' can in fact create a racist society. The 'race' descriptor may change to tribe or ethnicity but the creation of a society where one group is oppressed (and that oppression is fortified and enforced by laws, courts, gov't etc.) based on their group identification (real or imagined) can happen anywhere.
Smedley said:
Thanks for the helpful feedback. Based on your go-to sources, do you believe black people can be racist?
DaveSchmidt said:
Personally, the dictionary wouldn't be my go-to source in this discussion.
It wasn't intended as feedback. It was a statement of personal preference.
My go-to sources include flimbro's observations, admonitions, opinions, instruction and humor on MOL, whatever the topic. I don't have anything to add to them on this one.
a word like racism, in the U.S., has a lot deeper meaning and significance than its simple dictionary definition.
(and that oppression is fortified and enforced by laws, courts, gov't etc.)
What law fortifies oppressions specifically towards black America
?
TJ said:
(and that oppression is fortified and enforced by laws, courts, gov't etc.)
What law fortifies oppressions specifically towards black America
?
do you really not understand the point being made? if you truly don't, you need to do more research than you're going to get on MOL.
but I will give you a head start in case you want to do some reading:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/unequal-sentences-for-blacks-and-whites.html?_r=0
ml1 said:
a word like racism, in the U.S., has a lot deeper meaning and significance than its simple dictionary definition.
http://www.robot-hugs.com/definition/
Also, that. (Unless one subscribes to the idea that dictionaries are being rewritten because they offend people.)
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The flag is a symbol, making it a very appropriate and effective tool for protest. And as these sporting events have made a particular form of patriotism a pregame requirement, dissent becomes essential.