Clinton v. Obama archived

Watching the debate last night, I noticed Hillary had the " Slick Willie Clinton - "double speak" down to a tee.
I was glad to see Obama stand up and correct her several times when she tried to put her spin on the facts.

Just MY opinion, of course! :wink:

True, about the slick willie stuff. She just has a smoothness, that can be mistaken for slickness. She, and Bill, are the original comeback kids. However, she has always had a message, and would be a fine president, if that should happen. You can't say, on the one hand, she looks tired, and on the other hand, she's too slick. It just sounds like criticism for criticism's sake.

I liked her righteous indignation at that upstart, Edwards, saying she isn't an agent for change.

She's right, she embodies change, and she has fought for change in health care. She just hasn't been radical enough, and has been too cognizant of her political image, "triangulating" and pandering to the right.
I don't think that welfare to work was pandering to the right. It was common sense middle-of-the-road, don't just give hand-outs economic policy. Now, however, over Iraq, she has triangulated a bit too much for my taste.
The fact that Obama was against the war from the beginning is a credential strong enough for me. He should brag about it.

Dave--I think quite the opposite. I think the Dem primary is hot because we have --at least 3-- very viable contenders. Each may have shortcomings--but they seem smart, articulate, and seem like they could lead.

Personally, I'm NOT a Clinton fan (either Clinton). I would actually be happy if they faded into oblivion never to be heard from again.

Hey, I'm all for a woman President....... Just NOT THAT woman. :wink:

Just MY opinion, of course!

I just re-watched the debate. Hillary said Obama has flip-flopped on the Patriot Act and funding the war. Obama never "corrected" those statements because they are statements of fact, he simply deflected them and went on with more empty rhetoric: "I think the people of America are looking for are folks who are going to be straight about the issues and are going to be interested in solving problems and bringing people together." That's how he "addressed" the flip-flop issue. He does this all the time. Blah blah blah... cynics were wrong... bring people together... blah blah blah. No substance whatsoever.

For Hillary to call Obama a flip flopper is the pot calling the kettle black, Dave.

She wants to pull the troops out "in sixty days" if she becomes President, but she wants to keep a "presence" there for years (she said a few months ago...) Which is it? Out or in?

Read her exact words, not what Republicans and Obama misrepresent.
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101faessay86601/hillary-rodham-clinton/security-and-opportunity-for-the-twenty-first-century.html

Right, Dave, but didn't she vote with those who wanted to go in earlier? Am I wrong in recalling that she was quite a joiner when it came to saber-rattling in Iraq, as she did with her vote to call the Iranian guard a terrorist organization?

My point is, though she definitely talks the talk, she sometimes veers off to the right, and mitigates the clarity of her voice by voting authorizations of military expenditures which, if she were really against the war, she would not have done.

I don't think she knows what she thinks about Iraq. She's agin 'em, then, she's fer 'em.

So what is it now? She said last night she wants to pull out in sixty days. OK. Great. But that's not where she started back in '02, and she has been a genuine flip-flopper. I could find as many votes she has cast for war, as against it, if I were to search all of them.

She's a triangulator. She needs to vote her mind, if this article represents her mind.

Well, each one has raised about $100 million so far, so it's a tossup in that department.

Is he electable? He's electable if you vote for him! Of course, I don't mean any one person voting for him, but I think Obama can attract a lot of different people and would probably be a good president. We've had many with far less experience. But if everyone says, "I'd vote for him but..." then he'll lose all the primaries and we'll never know. Vote your conscience. Life will go on no matter what the outcome. It always has, in even more dangerous/less prosperous times than these.

My question is: Is Hillary electable? That's the real question. I think that with independents swarming to Obama, he's probably more electable than someone for whom half the country will not vote no matter what. That doesn't leave much room for error.

I'm not "excited" about any candidates, but Obama has grown on me. We could use someone inspiring and not just a technician, which is how most of the other candidates seem. We could use a period of idealism, etc.--or at least the chance for such a period. As such, I plan to vote for Obama in the NJ primary, assuming he's still in the race. At least that way I won't walk away from the voting machine feeling disgusted.

I like Richardson. Why does everyone (media) act as though he wasn't there? I thought his answers were great.

From Atlasshrugs, or -shrugged, Friday, about Kenya, where Christrians were burned to death in their churches, by Muslim tribal adversaries, last week, to grand silence in the West -------

Fate has just given Obama such a make-or-break opportunity. Will he confidently use it, or will he wimp out, showing the world he's not the hero of his believers' mythology, but the Obambi phony his detractors claim?

For it is the unique nexus of bloody violence between tribes - Kikuyu and Luo - and religions - Christianity and Islam - unraveling Kenya right now that gives Obama his opportunity. After all, his father, Barrack Hussein Obama Senior, was Luo and a Moslem.

Posted By: daveI think there's a moral compass repair place in Union, if you are interested. You should stop believing everything Republicans write.

But of course keep on believing them Dems because they ALWAYS tell the truth!:thumbup:

-SLK

Posted By: jdranoveFrom Atlasshrugs, or -shrugged, Friday, about Kenya, where Christrians were burned to death in their churches, by Muslim tribal adversaries, last week, to grand silence in the West -------

Fate has just given Obama such a make-or-break opportunity. Will he confidently use it, or will he wimp out, showing the world he's not the hero of his believers' mythology, but the Obambi phony his detractors claim?

For it is the unique nexus of bloody violence between tribes - Kikuyu and Luo - and religions - Christianity and Islam - unraveling Kenya right now that gives Obama his opportunity. After all, his father, Barrack Hussein Obama Senior, was Luo and a Moslem.

Thanks for standing up for us "Christrians".

Although, one could be excused for thinking that you've gotten the facts wrong, but have nevertheless posted in order to spread nonsense.

That stuff doesn't work here. I'm surprised that you haven't learned that, yet.

Posted By: nohero

Posted By: jdranoveFrom Atlasshrugs, or -shrugged, Friday, about Kenya, where Christrians were burned to death in their churches, by Muslim tribal adversaries, last week, to grand silence in the West -------

Fate has just given Obama such a make-or-break opportunity. Will he confidently use it, or will he wimp out, showing the world he's not the hero of his believers' mythology, but the Obambi phony his detractors claim?

For it is the unique nexus of bloody violence between tribes - Kikuyu and Luo - and religions - Christianity and Islam - unraveling Kenya right now that gives Obama his opportunity. After all, his father, Barrack Hussein Obama Senior, was Luo and a Moslem.

Thanks for standing up for us "Christrians".

Although, one could be excused for thinking that you've gotten the facts wrong, but have nevertheless posted in order to spread nonsense.

That stuff doesn't work here. I'm surprised that you haven't learned that, yet.

They don't give up. Still Swiftboating.

Electable? I don't think any of the Republicans are electable. Each of them piss off a significant segment of their party, except for Thompson who puts everyone to sleep.

Who would/should Obama pick as a VP candidadte?

Seems Edwards is more inclinde to play second fiddle than Hillary.

I don't know if Hillary is electable or not. I just don't think the Dems should do what they did in 2004 and nominate the "electable" John Kerry, simply because he is "electable".

bobk,

i agree. That is like playing not to lose. Better to go out with guns blazing.

To me that looks like more and more like Obama. Even conservatives can have a hope with Obama, as his youth presents opportunity for change in positions as he grows older and he talks about unifying so he may throw a few bones to conervatives.

"Go out with guns blazing?"

Not likely he'll be "going out," rather coming in, with Obama at 36% and Hillary at 28% in NH in the latest Marist poll.

According to today's media buzz, Clinton is done. Hype? Only time will tell.

-SLK

Posted By: serowayName me a president who doesn't leave with a low approval rating, if what you said about Truman is even true.

Didn't Bill Clinton leave office with a 65%+ approval rating???

I respect Hillary and will be quite happy if she's the party nominee. However, I can see and, perhaps more importantly, feel why Obama is causing the stir he is and will probably vote for him in the primary. No one has the experience to be President but he's a bright guy and he's smart enough to surround himself with really capable people and certainly better than Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al.

I liked Edwards's message the best, from the debate. It hit me where I live. I do kind of feel like my country is being run by lobbyists for the benefit of corporations and rich people. I do want it back.

Obama acted the way Hillary acted when she was in the lead: Cautious. He avoided specifics and just talked in a dignified and presidential way about some general value (change in his case, experience in hers). Very strategic and controlled. He proved in Iowa that he is electable, wouldn't you say?

So what are his policy positions, and how do they compare with HC's and JE's? I gotta get this stuff down fast. NJ primary is in less than a month.

Hillary hasn't avoided specifics. She's had position papers out that are far more detailed than anyone else for a while.

I like Obama but I hope to God there's a tough son of a b**tch under the charming surface.

Perusing the sites of the top 3 Dems, only Edwards comes close to providing specifics on what is, to me, the most important issue: education (and, specifically, education funding).

Dave23,

I don't know the amounts/specifics, but didn't Bush team up with Kennedy and start pumping in federal dollars like crazy into K-12. Funding isn't the sole answer. As for our kids, in 2006 they ranked below 28 other countries in science literacy, for example, just below Croatia and Latvia.

pangea,

I don't think I stated that funding is the "sole" answer.

Anyway, science has suffered in the classroom in part because of NCLB (an underfunded federal mandate). Science is not part of NCLB, therefor it's been pushed aside in order to focus on the standardized test.

There was no "crazy pumping" of federal dollars. In fact, dollars were steered away from some areas in order to partially fund NCLB. The current method of relying on local property taxes is insane. I know that I'm dreaming here, but I think the only way for it to work is for the feds to provide big block grants to the localities. (Local control at its finest.)

lurker,
The loathesome neo-con Robert Kagan seems to think that Obama is "tough" enough:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/27/AR2007042702027.html?referrer=emailarticle

Yes, Obama wants to increase defense spending and intervene more in south Asia. Sound familiar?
We have no idea about this guy. He won his senate seat basically uncontested (Republican resigned), has scant policy achievements and now everyone thinks he's superman. Wacky, media-addled nation.