Charlottesville, VA

You are still being amazingly vague. By "the left" do you mean Communist dictators like Mao and Stalin?  

Last night in Charlottesville, a small group of brave college students stood up to the mob of white supremacists who were going to try to tear down the statue of Thomas Jefferson on campus. The students circled around the statue and were able to protect it. The Nazis obviously did not mean well, so many of those out on the streets today were actually trying to protect the town and its people. 

Harriet said:

You are still being amazingly vague. By "the left" do you mean Communist dictators like Mao and Stalin?  

I said that earlier. Don't try some kind of they are not the left bs. 

Gilgul said:

Harriet said:

You are still being amazingly vague. By "the left" do you mean Communist dictators like Mao and Stalin?  

I said that earlier. Don't try some kind of they are not the left bs. 

"Left" and "right" are political words. You are referring to dictators, not politicians. Megalomaniacs are neither right not left of "center." They are simply omnivores.

Yes but many slavishly supported Stalin and Mao seeing them as heroes of the left. 

They were ideologues and dictators. They were not debaters, analysts, or politicians. "Left" and "right" are terms of art in politics.

Gilgul said: Yes but many slavishly supported Stalin and Mao seeing them as heroes of the left. 

Not really. Stalinism seems to be viewed more as a criminal betrayal of the revolution and of Marxist ideals. Stalin's misrepresentation of Marxism and socialism was used as his source of propaganda to support his totalitarian regime. 

The communist/socialist 'left' seeks a workers' utopia -- without the greed of capitalism, the manipulations of profit, or the sadism of unchecked power.

The regimes of the left that killed or locked up primarily those with educations (Mao, Pol Pot) seem more aligned with Trump's science-denying brigade of morons, racists and creeps. 

Gilgul said:

Yes but many slavishly supported Stalin and Mao seeing them as heroes of the left. 

Agreed. Those Mao and Stalin rallies during the Obama administration were something else. Nothing compared to the Nazi rallies by the Republicans we are witnessing now.

The Jewish mayor of Charlottesville is getting lots of death threats tonight. But we should talk about Pol Pot.

Gilgul said: Yes but many slavishly supported Stalin and Mao seeing them as heroes of the left. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the people marching today support Stalin and/or Mao?  I think their concept of socialism is better represented by Canada, Bernie Sanders, et al.  

Daily Stormer activists thrilled with the Trump/Zoinks take.

ouch. 

Trump's America #MAGA

Bringing up Pol Pot and Mao is rather disingenuous. The neo-nazis were there to protest the removal of Confederate statues. In this country, it is the right which has been the most violent and deadly, to the point of plunging the country into civil war, and via terrorism to maintain their racial ideology after the war. 

If we were in Cambodia or China, we'd be having a different conversation, but given that we're in an American context, it's dishonest to the point of insult to pretend that there's any equivalence between the white-supremacist right and those who oppose them.

PVW said:

Bringing up Pol Pot and Mao is rather disingenuous. The neo-nazis were there to protest the removal of Confederate statues. In this country, it is the right which has been the most violent and deadly, to the point of plunging the country into civil war, and via terrorism to maintain their racial ideology after the war. 

If we were in Cambodia or China, we'd be having a different conversation, but given that we're in an American context, it's dishonest to the point of insult to pretend that there's any equivalence between the white-supremacist right and those who oppose them.

Uh.... the right "plunged us into civil war"?

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_org_democratic.html

"Siri (Alexa?) what party did Jefferson Davis belong to?"

"What party created and used the KKK as their enforcers?"

http://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan

It was the Democratic Party that filibustered anti lynching laws. 

Carry on. 

fairplay said:

I just wonder if the counter-protestors, and the young lady who was killed, had any idea how dangerous going to Charlottesville today to try to face down the Nazis actually was. I honor her, and all the counter-protestors, for having the guts to stand up to the Nazis.

I remember Viola Liuzzo who drove alone all the way from Detroit to speak her truth at Selma, Alabama in 

MARCH of 1965.  Shot and killed by a Klansman.  "You can snuff out a candle.........but you can't snuff out a 

fire"

I think they likely have a positive opinion of them. And probably absolutely love Venezuela because Jeremy Corbyn does. 

Harriet said:

Gilgul said: Yes but many slavishly supported Stalin and Mao seeing them as heroes of the left. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the people marching today support Stalin and/or Mao?  I think their concept of socialism is better represented by Canada, Bernie Sanders, et al.  

Jackson_Fusion said:

PVW said:

Bringing up Pol Pot and Mao is rather disingenuous. The neo-nazis were there to protest the removal of Confederate statues. In this country, it is the right which has been the most violent and deadly, to the point of plunging the country into civil war, and via terrorism to maintain their racial ideology after the war. 

If we were in Cambodia or China, we'd be having a different conversation, but given that we're in an American context, it's dishonest to the point of insult to pretend that there's any equivalence between the white-supremacist right and those who oppose them.

Uh.... the right "plunged us into civil war"?

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_org_democratic.html


"Siri (Alexa?) what party did Jefferson Davis belong to?"

"What party created and used the KKK as their enforcers?"

http://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan


It was the Democratic Party that filibustered anti lynching laws. 

Carry on. 

I always thought that you were a thoughtful poster, but surely you know that this is a BS  argument.  Throughout history parties have changed.  Yes, absolutely after the civil war the democrats were racist and right wing.  But they are not now. You can do better.

Personally, I don't want to hear any crap about "both sides" from the President or anybody else when these twisted perversions are walking around as representatives of "one side". 

FilmCarp said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

PVW said:

Bringing up Pol Pot and Mao is rather disingenuous. The neo-nazis were there to protest the removal of Confederate statues. In this country, it is the right which has been the most violent and deadly, to the point of plunging the country into civil war, and via terrorism to maintain their racial ideology after the war. 

If we were in Cambodia or China, we'd be having a different conversation, but given that we're in an American context, it's dishonest to the point of insult to pretend that there's any equivalence between the white-supremacist right and those who oppose them.

Uh.... the right "plunged us into civil war"?

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_org_democratic.html


"Siri (Alexa?) what party did Jefferson Davis belong to?"

"What party created and used the KKK as their enforcers?"

http://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan


It was the Democratic Party that filibustered anti lynching laws. 

Carry on. 

I always thought that you were a thoughtful poster, but surely you know that this is a BS  argument.  Throughout history parties have changed.  Yes, absolutely after the civil war the democrats were racist and right wing.  But they are not now. You can do better.

By "after the civil war" I assume you mean a century.

In any case, unless the answer is "all conservative policies are racist because racism" there is little to be said here. Democrats created the KKK yeah but, the left around the world has the champ title in body count yeah but, leftist regimes even today are piling up bodies yeah but...

If I had my way after a fair trial this savage would get a needle and an unmarked grave. 

Other kinds of terrorists get to march in glory through NYC. Or maybe happy birthday wishes from the Women's March.

I think I know which side forgives and accepts violence, thanks. 

"Accepting violence" is not a political stance. It is a stance reflecting moral suasion. It is the ultimate immorality. There is nothing "left" or "right" about it, accept perhaps in its origin. Once a political stance devolves into.violence, it enters the Neolithic, enters the stone age, the era of cannibalism, the era of fratricide, ignorance and the pre-dawn of civilization.

Jackson_Fusion said:




By "after the civil war" I assume you mean a century.

In any case, unless the answer is "all conservative policies are racist because racism" there is little to be said here. Democrats created the KKK yeah but, the left around the world has the champ title in body count yeah but, leftist regimes even today are piling up bodies yeah but...

If I had my way after a fair trial this savage would get a needle and an unmarked grave. 

Other kinds of terrorists get to march in glory through NYC. Or maybe happy birthday wishes from the Women's March.

I think I know which side forgives and accepts violence, thanks. 

In 2017, it's the GOP that hosts CSA sympathizers, and the white supremacists marching in Charlottesville expressed support for Donald Trump, not Clinton. 

There are no statues of Mao or Pol Pot standing in honor in American cities, but there are statues honoring the leaders of armed treason in defense of slavery, and it is the contemporary right, not the left, who march in support of those statues.

Jackson_Fusion said:

PVW said:

Bringing up Pol Pot and Mao is rather disingenuous. The neo-nazis were there to protest the removal of Confederate statues. In this country, it is the right which has been the most violent and deadly, to the point of plunging the country into civil war, and via terrorism to maintain their racial ideology after the war. 

If we were in Cambodia or China, we'd be having a different conversation, but given that we're in an American context, it's dishonest to the point of insult to pretend that there's any equivalence between the white-supremacist right and those who oppose them.

Uh.... the right "plunged us into civil war"?

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_org_democratic.html


"Siri (Alexa?) what party did Jefferson Davis belong to?"

"What party created and used the KKK as their enforcers?"

http://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan


It was the Democratic Party that filibustered anti lynching laws. 

Carry on. 

By the same logic, Jackie Robinson played for the Los Angeles Dodgers.

PVW said:

Jackson_Fusion said:




By "after the civil war" I assume you mean a century.

In any case, unless the answer is "all conservative policies are racist because racism" there is little to be said here. Democrats created the KKK yeah but, the left around the world has the champ title in body count yeah but, leftist regimes even today are piling up bodies yeah but...

If I had my way after a fair trial this savage would get a needle and an unmarked grave. 

Other kinds of terrorists get to march in glory through NYC. Or maybe happy birthday wishes from the Women's March.

I think I know which side forgives and accepts violence, thanks. 

In 2017, it's the GOP that hosts CSA sympathizers, and the white supremacists marching in Charlottesville expressed support for Donald Trump, not Clinton. 

There are no statues of Mao or Pol Pot standing in honor in American cities, but there are statues honoring the leaders of armed treason in defense of slavery, and it is the contemporary right, not the left, who march in support of those statues.

There are terrorists marching to glory today. Why would anyone put a statue of a foreign leader up in any case?

The confederate flag, if it meant anything to people who are NOT racial troglodytes, was abdicate to the racists. If they loved their flag so much they should have fought to preserve it in the meaning they meant for it rather than let it morph fully into a symbol of ignorance. 

Similarly the statues- it's over. Pull them down. In fact, I think many of the people represented in those statues would, were they alive, agree with them coming down, never mind going up in the first place. Does that make them good people? Depends. Some were- if you spend any time reading their histories you would see that. Some were opportunists, some were venomous racists. No matter. It's the same as Germans who pretend Rommel was "the good general" or that the wermarcht somehow had clean hands. He wasn't and they don't. Same here. We can recognize that no one is fully good or bad while NOT putting them up in bronze.

I have no problem or hesitation in declaring that to be the case. I wonder how many on the left would do the same about those held as heroes by some in their ranks. 

When I see the bastard in the car marching up the avenue in NYC to the acclaim of elected officials I'll start worrying deeply about the right. 

Funny- when a Bernie campaign member shot up elected officials, the right fell all over itself declaring it had nothing to do with Bernie or his people. Some nazi ******* drives a car into a crowd- 100% on the right's head. 

From the late 19th Century to the late 20th both the Republican and Democratic Parties had "Left" and "Right" wings. That changed for the Democratic Party as the result of the Civil Rights Acts under the Johnson Administration. The "Right" of the Democratic Party migrated to the Republican Party. The change of the Republican Party was slightly more gradual.

Jackson_Fusion said:



 
Funny- when a Bernie campaign member shot up elected officials, the right fell all over itself declaring it had nothing to do with Bernie or his people. Some nazi ******* drives a car into a crowd- 100% on the right's head. 

Really?

LOST said:

Jackson_Fusion said:



 
Funny- when a Bernie campaign member shot up elected officials, the right fell all over itself declaring it had nothing to do with Bernie or his people. Some nazi ******* drives a car into a crowd- 100% on the right's head. 

Really?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/republicans-divided-over-trumps-call-unity-after-steve-scalise-shooting-625932%3famp=1

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4818371/paul-ryan-steve-scalise-shooting-congress-speech-transcript/%3fsource=dam

Really!

Compare/contrast

https://twitter.com/nancypelosi/status/896494890300747777

Oh, Nancy...

Jackson_Fusion said:

LOST said:

Jackson_Fusion said:



 
Funny- when a Bernie campaign member shot up elected officials, the right fell all over itself declaring it had nothing to do with Bernie or his people. Some nazi ******* drives a car into a crowd- 100% on the right's head. 

Really?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/republicans-divided-over-trumps-call-unity-after-steve-scalise-shooting-625932%3famp=1


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4818371/paul-ryan-steve-scalise-shooting-congress-speech-transcript/%3fsource=dam





Really!

Compare/contrast

https://twitter.com/nancypelosi/status/896494890300747777


Oh, Nancy...

Is White Supremacy not an affront to American values? I'm missing something in your argument here.

LOST said:

From the late 19th Century to the late 20th both the Republican and Democratic Parties had "Left" and "Right" wings. That changed for the Democratic Party as the result of the Civil Rights Acts under the Johnson Administration. The "Right" of the Democratic Party migrated to the Republican Party. The change of the Republican Party was slightly more gradual.








I do not know what "terrorists" have marched in NYC but a few years ago a former Irish Republican Party leader was Grand Marshall of the St. Patrick's Day Parade. It was very controversial.

Oscar Lopez Rivera

ridski said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

LOST said:

Jackson_Fusion said:



 
Funny- when a Bernie campaign member shot up elected officials, the right fell all over itself declaring it had nothing to do with Bernie or his people. Some nazi ******* drives a car into a crowd- 100% on the right's head. 

Really?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/republicans-divided-over-trumps-call-unity-after-steve-scalise-shooting-625932%3famp=1


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4818371/paul-ryan-steve-scalise-shooting-congress-speech-transcript/%3fsource=dam





Really!

Compare/contrast

https://twitter.com/nancypelosi/status/896494890300747777


Oh, Nancy...

Is White Supremacy not an affront to American values? I'm missing something in your argument here.

You are- the "repeat after me" part. It's right there in the tweet, go look amigo!