Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. Humanitarian Act or Big Scam?
nan said:
nohero said:Lots of things are presented as "human rights abuse" to get people to support military action, while the real reason is economic enhancement for a few. Not saying this is the case, but news coverage is not always the last word on reality. The Magnitsky Act is an example of fake human rights defense, so it would not surprise me to see it used to punish fake human rights violations. So, I will check it out, but what exactly is your point here? Why are you bringing this up? Is it just because you were Googling "Magnitsky Act" and this is what came up?
nan said:I don't know the details on this so I can't say if it is a real human rights abuse, or just some politically motivated move.There's a link to the news coverage. I'd like to hear how it couldn't be considered a real human rights abuse.
I read it in this morning's paper. The way the Chinese government has been abusing its Muslim minority has one of the news items I've been following. I was pleased to see that there was an effort in the United States to address it. And I noticed that the Magnitsky Act was one of the tools that could be used.
If Jimmy Dore hasn't covered this, I can understand why you were unaware of the issue. It's still a genuine human rights abuse, even without his "Jimprimatur"
nohero said:
nan said:I read it in this morning's paper. The way the Chinese government has been abusing its Muslim minority has one of the news items I've been following. I was pleased to see that there was an effort in the United States to address it. And I noticed that the Magnitsky Act was one of the tools that could be used.
nohero said:Lots of things are presented as "human rights abuse" to get people to support military action, while the real reason is economic enhancement for a few. Not saying this is the case, but news coverage is not always the last word on reality. The Magnitsky Act is an example of fake human rights defense, so it would not surprise me to see it used to punish fake human rights violations. So, I will check it out, but what exactly is your point here? Why are you bringing this up? Is it just because you were Googling "Magnitsky Act" and this is what came up?
nan said:I don't know the details on this so I can't say if it is a real human rights abuse, or just some politically motivated move.There's a link to the news coverage. I'd like to hear how it couldn't be considered a real human rights abuse.
If Jimmy Dore hasn't covered this, I can understand why you were unaware of the issue. It's still a genuine human rights abuse, even without his "Jimprimatur"
Please show me the evidence that I only listen to Jimmy Dore? Otherwise an apology for the personal attack. TIA.
Lots of key details on Browder here, a timeline, and a good summary of the case:
Andrei Nekrasov's presentation at the 7th OffshoreAlert Conference in London, November 13, 2018
http://magnitskyact.com/offshorealertlondon
In his Magnitsky narrative Browder omits many facts of his eventful life in Russia, and the early noughties tax evasion case in particular. I think that's mainly because he can't claim a human rights high moral ground in tax evasion. While he does present himself as a one of the world's most prominent human rights activists. But the human rights element is one big red herring of Browder's narrative. Sergei Magnitsky, Browder's accountant, died in a Moscow jail, and tragic though that death was (and there's no evidence to support Browder's claim Magnitsky was beaten to death), it has nothing to do with the cause-effect chain in the financial plots Browder was a main protagonist of. The case should actually be called the Browder case, not the Magnitsky case - another red herring.
I am saying this as a consistent critic of Russia's human rights record, and of its corruption too. But while my criticism has been, for years, in my filmmaking and journalism, as well as in my activity in the Russian opposition organisations and parties, the motivation of Mr Browder's criticism is somewhat more intriguing. While the Russian Air Force was pummelling Chechnya and I was making films about human rights violations there, he was making super-profit and evading tax in the neighbouring Kalmykia. Yet he now attempts to claim that the Russian prosecution of his financial misdeeds was politically motivated. "Any time you challenge the regime they immediately put a stamp on you - tax evasion" - he claims. But have a look how Browder was challenging the regime, and that already after the authorities had started probing his tax evasion.
Here's a quick recap of what Browder's Magnitsky Case essentially is.
An honest U.S. born hedge fund manager goes to Russia in the 90s, makes a killing, and eventually corrupt officials, the brutal Russian police decide to fleece him. Thankfully the hedge fund manager, Mr Browder, has moved the money out of the country by then. But the corrupt cops have an idea, though Browder doesn't know what it is yet. The police raid his offices - with the objective to get hold of the original corporate documents of his companies. They then steal - secretly re-register - those companies: and these are the companies through which Browder has made his investments and profits in Russia. The Russian criminals then apply on Browder's behalf for a refund of taxes the companies have paid. And, still unbeknownst to Browder, they get $230 million back from the Russian treasury.
OK, what is true and what's false here? There's one fact no-one denies, neither Mr Browder nor the Russian authorities. Someone did steal $230 million in a tax refund fraud. Another undeniable fact is that the companies which had paid that tax in the first place were controlled by Browder (formally HSBC Management Guernsey was the trustee).
What Browder claims, however, is that he lost control over the companies first, - Russian criminals stole them that is, - and only then the refund was wired to the companies.
The three companies that received the refund fraud money are Parfenion, Makhaon and Rilend. I'll be calling them "The companies". I will also use "Browder organisation" or "Hermitage" as an abbreviation for a group of people that share a certain knowledge and interests fronted by the Magnitsky case brand.
So the story is basically divided into two chapters. First the "Theft of the Companies", second "The theft of the Money, on behalf of those Companies".
That is to say the Browder organisation did not lose control of the companies, and it was involved in the preparation of the tax refund. I can't prove they actually received the 230 million dollars because they operated through figureads and offshore structures, but I can prove that their story of the company theft is false, and false stories are not knowingly told without a reason. It is also of course hugely important that the false story has been used as a foundation for major laws and policies, and a moral banner in global politics.
An interview with Andre Nekrasov about his London Off Shore Alert Conference presentation. Jaimison Firestone also made a presentation, but dodged questions about Browder.
Nan,
Has this whopper from Browder been posted on this thread?
http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/
paulsurovell said:
Nan,
Has this whopper from Browder been posted on this thread?
http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/
sbenois said:
Can't you just ask Vladi if it's true?
Thought this guy, not Putin, was richest Russian.
paulsurovell said:
Nan,
Has this whopper from Browder been posted on this thread?
http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/
No, but that's typical of the type of stuff Browder says now. He used to be Putin's #1 fan until he got a new career by being his #1 enemy. Browder is an obvious fake and lots of evidence he is also a crook, and yet so many on MOL believe his fantastical Cold War 2.0 story. Imagine that.
Paul and nan care more about Browder then they do Putin - it truly is an RT initiative.
Paul and Nan - is Putin really that rich - or is that fake news also? Has there yet to be a negative article on RT about Putin?
This guy is robbing the country and controlling the media - and you 2 don't seem to be bothered by this one iota. Insanity!
Jamie,
Any and all complaints should be directed to:
Ask for the Accounts Payable Department
South_Mountaineer said:
It's not just Browder.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-putin-spends-his-mysterious-fortune-2017-6
Yes it is. That's just someone trying to "prove" Browder's wacko claim by conflating Putin's access to state facilities with Putin's wealth, and citing a bunch of things that unknown people "say."
jamie said:
Paul and nan care more about Browder then they do Putin - it truly is an RT initiative.
Paul and Nan - is Putin really that rich - or is that fake news also? Has there yet to be a negative article on RT about Putin?
This guy is robbing the country and controlling the media - and you 2 don't seem to be bothered by this one iota. Insanity!
Browder's laughable claim that Putin is worth $200 billion is an illustration that anyone can say anything negative about Putin -- no matter how ridiculous -- and it will be believed.
You're probably right that RT has never run anything negative about Putin and I assume that he largely controls Russian media. That bothers me, but not as much as how the MSM excludes dissenting voices and ideas.
But I don't assume that everything on RT is false. I rarely watch RT, but I know that Chris Hedges is a journalist of integrity as was Ed Schultz.
Is Putin "robbing the country?"
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:Browder's laughable claim that Putin is worth $200 billion is an illustration that anyone can say anything negative about Putin -- no matter how ridiculous -- and it will be believed.
Paul and nan care more about Browder then they do Putin - it truly is an RT initiative.
Paul and Nan - is Putin really that rich - or is that fake news also? Has there yet to be a negative article on RT about Putin?
This guy is robbing the country and controlling the media - and you 2 don't seem to be bothered by this one iota. Insanity!
You're probably right that RT has never run anything negative about Putin and I assume that he largely controls Russian media. That bothers me, but not as much as how the MSM excludes dissenting voices and ideas.
But I don't assume that everything on RT is false. I rarely watch RT, but I know that Chris Hedges is a journalist of integrity as was Ed Schultz.
Is Putin "robbing the country?"
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
Exactly. File this under, "don' have a leg to stand on." People buying into the idea that Putin is the richest person on earth don't seem to give a crap about the real richest people on earth affecting us.
As for RT, they may not have the best perspective on what goes on in Russia, but they offer in-depth perspective on what goes on in the US. For example, they had substantive interviews with people during the Occupy movements around the country. The mainstream media mostly focused on that as a joke. On MOL, I get the impression that many view RT in a fearful way, as though as though a single viewing would lead to brainwashing and amnesia. That's not how critical thinking works.
paulsurovell said:Is Putin "robbing the country?"
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
Stop with the whataboutisms already - geez. Your allegiance to Putin is heard loud and clear. Your bashing of the MSM over RT is super hypocritical. You probably agree with Trump that the media is the enemy.
I'm sick of you and nan repeating the RT agenda and anti-MSM buzzwords here - then saying - we're the problem because we don't agree with the propaganda. Some of it is ok, but that fringe reporters they are taking is for a purpose. The fact that you guys are blind to that is amazing. They are trying to legitimize their platform by having dissenting American views. And you guys are propping up their effort.
If you want to start a thread about our oligarchy robbing the country - then do IT! But you would rather defend Putin's wealth - when no one can confirm or deny what it is and no one can do any real reporting on what he does.
If the MSM is bad - then call them out - pick 5 stories a day they're getting wrong - start a thread about it. Tel us what news source (that isn't RT) we should be following.
Here's one news source I read - critique away: https://www.nytimes.com/
And feel free to post Bernie's views on American oligarchy.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:Yes it is. That's just someone trying to "prove" Browder's wacko claim by conflating Putin's access to state facilities with Putin's wealth, and citing a bunch of things that unknown people "say."
It's not just Browder.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-putin-spends-his-mysterious-fortune-2017-6
That's a false characterization of the article. Browder's mentioned, but the article collects from other sources. If you're calling Browder the inspiration for the author of the article, that's something you're coming up with. I only posted one of many articles that you find if you look for discussions of Putin's net worth. Most of us don't buy the story that Putin is a great guy who is getting smeared by Browder.
jamie said:
Paul and nan care more about Browder then they do Putin - it truly is an RT initiative.
Paul and Nan - is Putin really that rich - or is that fake news also? Has there yet to be a negative article on RT about Putin?
This guy is robbing the country and controlling the media - and you 2 don't seem to be bothered by this one iota. Insanity!
Browder's laughable claim that Putin is worth $200 billion is an illustration that anyone can say anything negative about Putin -- no matter how ridiculous -- and it will be believed.
You're probably right that RT has never run anything negative about Putin and I assume that he largely controls Russian media. That bothers me, but not as much as how the MSM excludes dissenting voices and ideas.
But I don't assume that everything on RT is false. I rarely watch RT, but I know that Chris Hedges is a journalist of integrity as was Ed Schultz.
Is Putin "robbing the country?"
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
South_Mountaineer said:
paulsurovell said:That's a false characterization of the article. Browder's mentioned, but the article collects from other sources. If you're calling Browder the inspiration for the author of the article, that's something you're coming up with. I only posted one of many articles that you find if you look for discussions of Putin's net worth. Most of us don't buy the story that Putin is a great guy who is getting smeared by Browder.
South_Mountaineer said:Yes it is. That's just someone trying to "prove" Browder's wacko claim by conflating Putin's access to state facilities with Putin's wealth, and citing a bunch of things that unknown people "say."
It's not just Browder.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-putin-spends-his-mysterious-fortune-2017-6
List the article's claims and the sources for those claims, and then we can talk about it. I'll bet you won't.
jamie said:
paulsurovell said:Is Putin "robbing the country?"Stop with the whataboutisms already - geez. Your allegiance to Putin is heard loud and clear. Your bashing of the MSM over RT is super hypocritical. You probably agree with Trump that the media is the enemy.
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
I'm sick of you and nan repeating the RT agenda and anti-MSM buzzwords here - then saying - we're the problem because we don't agree with the propaganda. Some of it is ok, but that fringe reporters they are taking is for a purpose. The fact that you guys are blind to that is amazing. They are trying to legitimize their platform by having dissenting American views. And you guys are propping up their effort.
If you want to start a thread about our oligarchy robbing the country - then do IT! But you would rather defend Putin's wealth - when no one can confirm or deny what it is and no one can do any real reporting on what he does.
If the MSM is bad - then call them out - pick 5 stories a day they're getting wrong - start a thread about it. Tel us what news source (that isn't RT) we should be following.
Here's one news source I read - critique away: https://www.nytimes.com/
And feel free to post Bernie's views on American oligarchy.
What you don't get is that you're being scammed by the same institutions and many of the same people who scammed this country in 2003. Putin is not a democrat and Russia is not a democracy as we know it. But he doesn't control Trump and he didn't sway the election and he's not the devil incarnate.
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:What you don't get is that you're being scammed by the same institutions and many of the same people who scammed this country in 2003. Putin is not a democrat and Russia is not a democracy as we know it. But he doesn't control Trump and he didn't sway the election and he's not the devil incarnate.
paulsurovell said:Is Putin "robbing the country?"Stop with the whataboutisms already - geez. Your allegiance to Putin is heard loud and clear. Your bashing of the MSM over RT is super hypocritical. You probably agree with Trump that the media is the enemy.
That's true if you mean is the oligarchy that Putin controls robbing the country?
But then we have ask whether our oligarchy is robbing our country.
Bernie talked about that.
I'm sick of you and nan repeating the RT agenda and anti-MSM buzzwords here - then saying - we're the problem because we don't agree with the propaganda. Some of it is ok, but that fringe reporters they are taking is for a purpose. The fact that you guys are blind to that is amazing. They are trying to legitimize their platform by having dissenting American views. And you guys are propping up their effort.
If you want to start a thread about our oligarchy robbing the country - then do IT! But you would rather defend Putin's wealth - when no one can confirm or deny what it is and no one can do any real reporting on what he does.
If the MSM is bad - then call them out - pick 5 stories a day they're getting wrong - start a thread about it. Tel us what news source (that isn't RT) we should be following.
Here's one news source I read - critique away: https://www.nytimes.com/
And feel free to post Bernie's views on American oligarchy.
now we're whataboutting 2003? Huh?
I know Paul, nan, Putin and RT distrust our IC immensely - but here's one of their reports as a reminder:
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
And before Paul says it - I'll include his response - whatabout WMDS!
paulsurovell
said:
South_Mountaineer said:List the article's claims and the sources for those claims, and then we can talk about it. I'll bet you won't.
paulsurovell said:That's a false characterization of the article. Browder's mentioned, but the article collects from other sources. If you're calling Browder the inspiration for the author of the article, that's something you're coming up with. I only posted one of many articles that you find if you look for discussions of Putin's net worth. Most of us don't buy the story that Putin is a great guy who is getting smeared by Browder.
South_Mountaineer said:Yes it is. That's just someone trying to "prove" Browder's wacko claim by conflating Putin's access to state facilities with Putin's wealth, and citing a bunch of things that unknown people "say."
It's not just Browder.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-putin-spends-his-mysterious-fortune-2017-6
The article is literally a list of claims and sources for those claims.
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted:
https://ria.ru/incidents/20181119/1533060762.html
Moscow accuses Browder of poisoning Magnitsky.
Nan - please post Lucy's response here.
This based on info from Oleg Lurie who is someone that Paul, nan & Lucy have a lot of faith in - as far as the truth with what happened in the prison. Absolutely unbelievable! This guy (Oleg) officially has zero credibility now.
And it also appears that a Russian may be leading Interpol shortly.
jamie said:
This based on info from Oleg Lurie who is someone that Paul, nan & Lucy have a lot of faith in - as far as the truth with what happened in the prison.
Jamie, I never heard of Oleg Lurie until I read this post.
jamie said:
Like Trump - ALL negative news in regards to Putin is Fake news.
Not negative news, just crazy news like -- Putin is the richest person in the world, that he controls Donald Trump, that he swayed the election and that he is responsible for divisions among Americans. But as Seymour Hersh said, Russiagate coverage is "Crazy Town."
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:Jamie, I never heard of Oleg Lurie until I read this post.
This based on info from Oleg Lurie who is someone that Paul, nan & Lucy have a lot of faith in - as far as the truth with what happened in the prison.
Sorry about that - I thought you were following the Browder story. If you were - you'd know Oleg.
I'll await nan's response. Looks like komisar hasn't posted anything about it on the scoop. She's a bit stuck at the $100 out of $5,000 on her gofundme page.
ridski said:
paulsurovellThe article is literally a list of claims and sources for those claims.
said:
South_Mountaineer said:List the article's claims and the sources for those claims, and then we can talk about it. I'll bet you won't.
paulsurovell said:That's a false characterization of the article. Browder's mentioned, but the article collects from other sources. If you're calling Browder the inspiration for the author of the article, that's something you're coming up with. I only posted one of many articles that you find if you look for discussions of Putin's net worth. Most of us don't buy the story that Putin is a great guy who is getting smeared by Browder.
South_Mountaineer said:Yes it is. That's just someone trying to "prove" Browder's wacko claim by conflating Putin's access to state facilities with Putin's wealth, and citing a bunch of things that unknown people "say."
It's not just Browder.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-putin-spends-his-mysterious-fortune-2017-6
Not really. Will document later.
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Lots of things are presented as "human rights abuse" to get people to support military action, while the real reason is economic enhancement for a few. Not saying this is the case, but news coverage is not always the last word on reality. The Magnitsky Act is an example of fake human rights defense, so it would not surprise me to see it used to punish fake human rights violations. So, I will check it out, but what exactly is your point here? Why are you bringing this up? Is it just because you were Googling "Magnitsky Act" and this is what came up?