Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. Humanitarian Act or Big Scam?
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:He got a good review from a reporter there (of course, the reporter's tweet was descended on by the anti-Browder people)
Evidently, Bill Browder finally got asked a somewhat challenging question in front of the European Parliament and he lost it.
https://twitter.com/LucyKomisar/status/1090291882142433281
It looks like they took the video down, so I am working on getting a link.
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090294932760346625
"In the @Europarl_EN press room this evening, @Billbrowder continues his call on the #EU to put together an equivalent #Magnitsk Act like the US has, to impose sanctions over human rights violations."
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090295564208619520
"The idea is to freeze assets and ban visas of individuals who are known to have committed human rights abuses when courts or judicial systems may be unwilling or unable to do so. #MagnitskyAct"
No mention of the question about the film though. Also, these people put on this list don't even have any way to prove their case. There is no trial, just someone like Bill Browder's word. Just because Browder says you commit human rights abuse, does not mean it's true.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:South_Mountaineer beat you to it, and it shows just how wrong Komisar’s tweet is. Makes a guy Question More her reliability.
Evidently, Bill Browder finally got asked a somewhat challenging question in front of the European Parliament and he lost it.
https://twitter.com/LucyKomisar/status/1090291882142433281
It looks like they took the video down, so I am working on getting a link.
Why because he's better with technology than she is so he is right? No logic.
nan said:Why because he's better with technology than she is so he is right? No logic.
Because the video footage gives the lie to what Komisar wrote.
South_Mountaineer said:
I think this is your question and answer. I don't think he "lost it".
The guy asking the question appears to be Nicholas Bay, who is also the general secretary of Marine Le Pen's National Front.
Not a good group, but everything he says about Browder is true. If something is true, it's true no matter who says it. Where did you get the video from? Browder's comments about Andre Nekersov were repulsive and of course he won't debate him because he would lose. He has never produced evidence to support his claims.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:Because the video footage gives the lie to what Komisar wrote.
Why because he's better with technology than she is so he is right? No logic.
I don't think so. And she was not trying to hide it--she sent me the video I agree with what she said. How do you think she is shown to be lying?
nan said:
I don't think so. And she was not trying to hide it--she sent me the video I agree with what she said. How do you think she is shown to be lying?
No explosion in anger. No losing it. Does this really need to be spelled out?
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:No explosion in anger. No losing it. Does this really need to be spelled out?
I don't think so. And she was not trying to hide it--she sent me the video I agree with what she said. How do you think she is shown to be lying?
Did you hear what he was sputtering about Andre Nekersov and gesticulating and accusing him of working for the FSB over and over and then saying he turned to the FSB bcause he was broke? Isn't that libel? If he has evidence to prove Nekersov's film is fake than why has he not produced it? Instead he just gets his lawyer to shut the film down.
Sputtering and gesticulating? I guess it does have to be spelled out, but not by me.
sputtering - gesticulating? nice smear on his testimony - you're catching on comrade! When you don't like what he said - criticize How he said it.
Is it true the Andrei was working for Berezovsky? Was all of his Anti-Putin films in coordination with him?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)
DaveSchmidt said:
Sputtering and gesticulating? I guess it does have to be spelled out, but not by me.
OK, whatever. Just remember, Bill Browder goes around with a story that he can't support with evidence and only the right-wing extreme guy questions him on that.
Edited to add: Lucy Komisar gave some more information on twitter. She said: "None are investigators. All politicians. They repeat Browder's fabrications. Before event, I sent all briefing paper with linked documents exposing BB lies. All ignored it except Nicolas Bay who I assume got his info directly from Nekrasov. This committee has anti-Russia agenda."
South_Mountaineer said:
Guess it was this event.
Seems right--Lucy Komisar said they were an "Anti-Russian" group and that would explain it.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:He got a good review from a reporter there (of course, the reporter's tweet was descended on by the anti-Browder people)
Evidently, Bill Browder finally got asked a somewhat challenging question in front of the European Parliament and he lost it.
https://twitter.com/LucyKomisar/status/1090291882142433281
It looks like they took the video down, so I am working on getting a link.
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090294932760346625
"In the @Europarl_EN press room this evening, @Billbrowder continues his call on the #EU to put together an equivalent #Magnitsk Act like the US has, to impose sanctions over human rights violations."
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090295564208619520
"The idea is to freeze assets and ban visas of individuals who are known to have committed human rights abuses when courts or judicial systems may be unwilling or unable to do so. #MagnitskyAct"
Not surprised Jake Parrock takes Browder at face value. He's not exactly a Seymour Hersch kind of guy. Very likable though and adorable.
jamie said:
sputtering - gesticulating? nice smear on his testimony - you're catching on comrade! When you don't like what he said - criticize How he said it.
Is it true the Andrei was working for Berezovsky? Was all of his Anti-Putin films in coordination with him?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)
I'm sure Andre will have plenty to say about this. I will post his response to Browder's accusations.
Maybe, in the meantime, you can get me the evidence to show Andre Nekersov is an FSB agent. Cause Browder did not present any. If Nekersov is so fake, why does Browder not show the evidence instead of just launching into personal attacks. You run MOL so you know how the personal attack thing goes when someone loses the argument.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:Seems right--Lucy Komisar said they were an "Anti-Russian" group and that would explain it.
Guess it was this event.
In the Anna Politkovskaya Press Room.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:In the Anna Politkovskaya Press Room.
South_Mountaineer said:Seems right--Lucy Komisar said they were an "Anti-Russian" group and that would explain it.
Guess it was this event.
Check out the remarks starting at 10:44:
nan said:
Check out the remarks starting at 10:44:
No. I’m done with your alternative reality in this thread.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:No. I’m done with your alternative reality in this thread.
Check out the remarks starting at 10:44:
The remarks starting at 10:44 mention FACTS.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:Not a good group, but everything he says about Browder is true. If something is true, it's true no matter who says it. Where did you get the video from? Browder's comments about Andre Nekersov were repulsive and of course he won't debate him because he would lose. He has never produced evidence to support his claims.
I think this is your question and answer. I don't think he "lost it".
The guy asking the question appears to be Nicholas Bay, who is also the general secretary of Marine Le Pen's National Front.
The video is on YouTube -- no sophisticated computer skills required to find it using any search engine to look for any posts with "Browder" and "European" from the last day.
And the National Front is not just "not a good group". They have received major financial support, to keep them afloat from (drum roll please) - Russia! (cymbal clash). So the guy who asks Browder if he'd debate Nekersov is a high-ranking official of the racist French political party which Russia supports. Instead of searching for "dirt" on a reporter who tweeted about the event, maybe learn more about who is part of the anti-Browder campaign.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:Not surprised Jake Parrock takes Browder at face value. He's not exactly a Seymour Hersch kind of guy. Very likable though and adorable.
nan said:He got a good review from a reporter there (of course, the reporter's tweet was descended on by the anti-Browder people)
Evidently, Bill Browder finally got asked a somewhat challenging question in front of the European Parliament and he lost it.
https://twitter.com/LucyKomisar/status/1090291882142433281
It looks like they took the video down, so I am working on getting a link.
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090294932760346625
"In the @Europarl_EN press room this evening, @Billbrowder continues his call on the #EU to put together an equivalent #Magnitsk Act like the US has, to impose sanctions over human rights violations."
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1090295564208619520
"The idea is to freeze assets and ban visas of individuals who are known to have committed human rights abuses when courts or judicial systems may be unwilling or unable to do so. #MagnitskyAct"
If he was relying on Lucy Komisar, who was deliberately deceptive about how Browder answered the hostile question, then he'd be a terrible reporter.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:The video is on YouTube -- no sophisticated computer skills required to find it using any search engine to look for any posts with "Browder" and "European" from the last day.
South_Mountaineer said:Not a good group, but everything he says about Browder is true. If something is true, it's true no matter who says it. Where did you get the video from? Browder's comments about Andre Nekersov were repulsive and of course he won't debate him because he would lose. He has never produced evidence to support his claims.
I think this is your question and answer. I don't think he "lost it".
The guy asking the question appears to be Nicholas Bay, who is also the general secretary of Marine Le Pen's National Front.
And the National Front is not just "not a good group". They have received major financial support, to keep them afloat from (drum roll please) - Russia! (cymbal clash). So the guy who asks Browder if he'd debate Nekersov is a high-ranking official of the racist French political party which Russia supports. Instead of searching for "dirt" on a reporter who tweeted about the event, maybe learn more about who is part of the anti-Browder campaign.
I found it on YouTube, thanks! Lucy Komisar gave them all information on Browder before the meeting. They should have checked that out. The guy's position may have made it easier to speak out against Browder, but Browder is still still peddling a fake story and should not be allowed to get away with what he does. No one produced any evidence to verify Browder's fairy tale. Of course Browder won't debate Nekersov (who he calls an FSB agent with no evidence) because he can't.
There are plenty of people in the "anti-Browder campaign" from all different perspectives, just like there are plenty of people in the pro-Browder campaign from the same. This is not a right-wing thing as you seem to portray.
jamie said:
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
nan said:
jamie said:When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
Have you ever thought for a minute that people don't want to be on public record accusing Putin of such a crime? There's is a certain amount of conditioning in Russia that you don't do this. The wall may have come down, but the ideology and the people in power are still very much intact.
Why is it - you and the fringe keep having to make excuses for why people are dead? Makes you wonder.
Just because it's driving me crazy and for no other reason, and I hate to be this person but: It's Nekrasov, not Nekersov.
nan said:
jamie said:When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
Can I cite the Committee to Protect Journalists, or are you going to have some source that says they're nefarious too?
https://cpj.org/data/people/anna-politkovskaya/
Politkovskaya, 48, a journalist renowned for her critical coverage of the Chechen conflict, was found slain in her apartment building in Moscow, according to international news reports. The Interfax news agency, citing police, said Politkovskaya had been shot and that a pistol and four bullet casings had been found.
Politkovskaya, special correspondent for the independent Moscow newspaper Novaya Gazeta, was well known for her investigative reports on human rights abuses by the Russian military in Chechnya. In seven years covering the second Chechen war, Politkovskaya's reporting repeatedly drew the wrath of Russian authorities. She was threatened, jailed, forced into exile, and poisoned during her career, CPJ research shows.
The journalists she worked with and her family believe it was the government, not just the people convicted, that's responsible.
Politkovskaya's former colleagues at Novaya Gazeta said Pavlyuchenkov knew much more about the murder than he had revealed. They said the investigating authorities were aware of this but had not pressed him to speak. They said the official investigation was lacking in other ways as well: They said it had become clear a number of officers with the police's elite secret department and the Federal Security Service (FSB) played roles in the murder, but none of the officers were brought to justice.
Karinna Moskalenko, one of the Politkovskaya family lawyers, said she was skeptical about the 2014 verdicts and sentencing. "The life terms given to two secondary culprits in the murder," Moskalenko told CPJ, "are an attempt to avert the international attention away from the case, and from the fact that Anna Politkovskaya's killing remains unsolved."
jamie said:
nan said:Have you ever thought for a minute that people don't want to be on public record accusing Putin of such a crime? There's is a certain amount of conditioning in Russia that you don't do this. The wall may have come down, but the ideology and the people in power are still very much intact.
jamie said:When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
Why is it - you and the fringe keep having to make excuses for why people are dead? Makes you wonder.
There are lots of theories and few facts, and as Stephen Cohen points out, there is no evidence that Putin ordered the killing of any of these journalists, so we should base our judgement on verifiable facts. If you go down the wrong way of a one-way street you might get killed. You take medication not prescribed you might die. AND Especially, if you pursue foreign policies based on fiction, you are likely to get in war. Cohen also mentions that more journalists were killed under Yeltsin than Putin. Never hear you complain about Yeltsin and he, supported by the US, is a big part of the reason the oligarchs, such as Bill Browder, came to power in the first place.
ridski said:
Just because it's driving me crazy and for no other reason, and I hate to be this person but: It's Nekrasov, not Nekersov.
Point taken. I'm not a good speller. Don't know why you feel the need to mention that you don't want to be him, since I assume you don't want to be most people. But, anyway, we now have an interview with NEKRASOV on his reaction to Browder accusing him of being an FSB agent on Fault Lines Radio and they seem to have some difficulty pronouncing his name.
https://www.pscp.tv/w/1kvKpEkBmAbGE?t=1097
-- or--
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:Can I cite the Committee to Protect Journalists, or are you going to have some source that says they're nefarious too?
jamie said:When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
https://cpj.org/data/people/anna-politkovskaya/
Politkovskaya, 48, a journalist renowned for her critical coverage of the Chechen conflict, was found slain in her apartment building in Moscow, according to international news reports. The Interfax news agency, citing police, said Politkovskaya had been shot and that a pistol and four bullet casings had been found.Politkovskaya, special correspondent for the independent Moscow newspaper Novaya Gazeta, was well known for her investigative reports on human rights abuses by the Russian military in Chechnya. In seven years covering the second Chechen war, Politkovskaya's reporting repeatedly drew the wrath of Russian authorities. She was threatened, jailed, forced into exile, and poisoned during her career, CPJ research shows.The journalists she worked with and her family believe it was the government, not just the people convicted, that's responsible.
Politkovskaya's former colleagues at Novaya Gazeta said Pavlyuchenkov knew much more about the murder than he had revealed. They said the investigating authorities were aware of this but had not pressed him to speak. They said the official investigation was lacking in other ways as well: They said it had become clear a number of officers with the police's elite secret department and the Federal Security Service (FSB) played roles in the murder, but none of the officers were brought to justice.Karinna Moskalenko, one of the Politkovskaya family lawyers, said she was skeptical about the 2014 verdicts and sentencing. "The life terms given to two secondary culprits in the murder," Moskalenko told CPJ, "are an attempt to avert the international attention away from the case, and from the fact that Anna Politkovskaya's killing remains unsolved."
Cohen, who was her neighbor, said her family and colleagues did not believe it was Putin. We just don't know.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:Cohen, who was her neighbor, said her family and colleagues did not believe it was Putin. We just don't know.
nan said:Can I cite the Committee to Protect Journalists, or are you going to have some source that says they're nefarious too?
jamie said:When it comes to the journalist DaveSchmidt mentions, he said he does not think it was Putin and neither does her former colleagues nor family.
Stephen's reaction when he asks himself if Putin ordered the killings.
https://cpj.org/data/people/anna-politkovskaya/
Politkovskaya, 48, a journalist renowned for her critical coverage of the Chechen conflict, was found slain in her apartment building in Moscow, according to international news reports. The Interfax news agency, citing police, said Politkovskaya had been shot and that a pistol and four bullet casings had been found.Politkovskaya, special correspondent for the independent Moscow newspaper Novaya Gazeta, was well known for her investigative reports on human rights abuses by the Russian military in Chechnya. In seven years covering the second Chechen war, Politkovskaya's reporting repeatedly drew the wrath of Russian authorities. She was threatened, jailed, forced into exile, and poisoned during her career, CPJ research shows.The journalists she worked with and her family believe it was the government, not just the people convicted, that's responsible.
Politkovskaya's former colleagues at Novaya Gazeta said Pavlyuchenkov knew much more about the murder than he had revealed. They said the investigating authorities were aware of this but had not pressed him to speak. They said the official investigation was lacking in other ways as well: They said it had become clear a number of officers with the police's elite secret department and the Federal Security Service (FSB) played roles in the murder, but none of the officers were brought to justice.Karinna Moskalenko, one of the Politkovskaya family lawyers, said she was skeptical about the 2014 verdicts and sentencing. "The life terms given to two secondary culprits in the murder," Moskalenko told CPJ, "are an attempt to avert the international attention away from the case, and from the fact that Anna Politkovskaya's killing remains unsolved."
If Cohen means that Putin wasn't the gunman, he's right.
Otherwise, he can't speak for her family and colleagues, who do believe the government was responsible.
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South_Mountaineer beat you to it, and it shows just how wrong Komisar’s tweet is. Makes a guy Question More her reliability.