Anti-vaxxers in Maplewood?

Jackson_Fusion said:

davidfrazer said:

I think pediatricians hold the key to squelching the anti-vax movement. What we need is an organized movement among pediatricians across the board to refuse to accept unvaccinated kids as patients. These families will then all be forced to seek out the few quacks who will see them and, eventually, infect each other. That should put a stop to it. Harsh? Perhaps, but these folks have already demonstrated that they will not listen to reason. Appeals to science and the public good already fails to move them. Coercion is the only other alternative.

Terribly unethical. Some pediatricians have opted to do so, of course, but only because they know another doctor will see the patient. The children are innocent in this, and no pediatrician (except lunatics like the aforementioned Wolfson) would send away a child who needs medical care which, in most cases, will be totally unrelated to a lack of vaccination, knowing the child will find no other care.

There is however a fair case to be made for protecting other patients. That's an issue separate from excluding the unvaccinated on principle, though the result may be the same.

We've seen whooping cough make a comeback but given the communicability of measles this very well could be the event that makes for some very ugly confrontations between government, professional organizations, and wrong headed parents.

It might not be ethical to refuse to treat a patient in immediate need but I see nothing unethical about refusing to regularly see a patient who is putting your other patients at risk.

nohero said:

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028.

Because vaccine.

Lets get rid of that vaccine and bring it back to .97.

Parents of small children should boycott pediatricians who will not pledge not to accept as patients unvaccinated children. The antivaxx parents are simply morons who probably do not know how to use a flush toilet. Public school systems should simply refuse to enroll the unvaccinated on public health grounds. The same parents who think it is perfectly fine to refuse to vaccinate are probably the first to cry poverty at the hospital when their unvaccinated offspring contract a preventable disease. Until residents of this country stop pandering to kooks we will end up footing the bill for them.

davidfrazer said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

davidfrazer said:

I think pediatricians hold the key to squelching the anti-vax movement. What we need is an organized movement among pediatricians across the board to refuse to accept unvaccinated kids as patients. These families will then all be forced to seek out the few quacks who will see them and, eventually, infect each other. That should put a stop to it. Harsh? Perhaps, but these folks have already demonstrated that they will not listen to reason. Appeals to science and the public good already fails to move them. Coercion is the only other alternative.

Terribly unethical. Some pediatricians have opted to do so, of course, but only because they know another doctor will see the patient. The children are innocent in this, and no pediatrician (except lunatics like the aforementioned Wolfson) would send away a child who needs medical care which, in most cases, will be totally unrelated to a lack of vaccination, knowing the child will find no other care.

There is however a fair case to be made for protecting other patients. That's an issue separate from excluding the unvaccinated on principle, though the result may be the same.

We've seen whooping cough make a comeback but given the communicability of measles this very well could be the event that makes for some very ugly confrontations between government, professional organizations, and wrong headed parents.

It might not be ethical to refuse to treat a patient in immediate need but I see nothing unethical about refusing to regularly see a patient who is putting your other patients at risk.

I'll assume you missed a paragraph in my post.

In any case- a choir arrived, and we are all preaching to it. Hopefully some lurking hearts are turned.

drummerboy said:

I know people make fun of my woo obsession, but it's all part and parcel to the same thing. You either believe in the science or you don't. You can't pick and choose.

Use of alternative medicine does not preclude medical science. Use of "woo" can be used in conjunction with "standard" medicine.

Yes it's called Integrative Medicine.

While I don't think we will ever get in front of this issue, as there will always be parents on the fringe who simply believe what they believe and will not be persuaded otherwise, and I don't think we can legally mandate the vaccinations, I think we have a right to know who IS and is NOT vaccinated. I think that's OUR right.

BG9 said:

nohero said:

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028.

Because vaccine.

Lets get rid of that vaccine and bring it back to .97.

I don't think anyone is arguing for that. But, considering the odds there sure does seem to be an awful lot of hand wringing going on. I mean, you drive your kids places in cars. Right?

boomie said:

While I don't think we will ever get in front of this issue, as there will always be parents on the fringe who simply believe what they believe and will not be persuaded otherwise, I think we have a right to know who IS and is NOT vaccinated. I think that's OUR right.

No. It's not. No matter how hysterical the mob may get, it does not have the right to infringe on the rights of others.

TylerDurden said:

BG9 said:

nohero said:

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028.

Because vaccine.

Lets get rid of that vaccine and bring it back to .97.

I don't think anyone is arguing for that. But, considering the odds there sure does seem to be an awful lot of hand wringing going on. I mean, you drive your kids places in cars. Right?

Ahhh, the old "nobody gets polio anymore!" troll. The classics are still the best.

TylerDurden said:

boomie said:

While I don't think we will ever get in front of this issue, as there will always be parents on the fringe who simply believe what they believe and will not be persuaded otherwise, I think we have a right to know who IS and is NOT vaccinated. I think that's OUR right.

No. It's not. No matter how hysterical the mob may get, it does not have the right to infringe on the rights of others.

Tell it to ebola tent lady and Mary Mallon.

RobB said:

TylerDurden said:

BG9 said:

nohero said:

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028.

Because vaccine.

Lets get rid of that vaccine and bring it back to .97.

I don't think anyone is arguing for that. But, considering the odds there sure does seem to be an awful lot of hand wringing going on. I mean, you drive your kids places in cars. Right?

Ahhh, the old "nobody gets polio anymore!" troll. The classics are still the best.

Who/What are you responding to?

You.

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

marylago said:

drummerboy said:

I know people make fun of my woo obsession, but it's all part and parcel to the same thing. You either believe in the science or you don't. You can't pick and choose.

Use of alternative medicine does not preclude medical science. Use of "woo" can be used in conjunction with "standard" medicine.

There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. There's medicine that's been proven to work and "medicine" that hasn't.

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

I think that kids should be barred from public school unless they are vaccinated or can provide a medical waiver.

I also think that drunk drivers should be locked up and headlights should be mandatory at night.

Wacky, wacky ***** over here in South Orange New Jersey. Freedom shall suffer our wrath.

RobB said:

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

I think that kids should be barred from public school unless they are vaccinated or can provide a medical waiver.

I also think that drunk drivers should be locked up and headlights should be mandatory at night.

Wacky, wacky ***** over here in South Orange New Jersey. Freedom shall suffer our wrath.

Interesting post. Interesting how you didn't answer my questions.

And Kaci Hickox was held for no good reason. She was asymptomatic and tested negative for Ebola.

LMAO. How do you people get out of bed in the morning?

davidfrazer said:

marylago said:

drummerboy said:

I know people make fun of my woo obsession, but it's all part and parcel to the same thing. You either believe in the science or you don't. You can't pick and choose.

Use of alternative medicine does not preclude medical science. Use of "woo" can be used in conjunction with "standard" medicine.

There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. There's medicine that's been proven to work and "medicine" that hasn't.

Some of the time.....

TylerDurden said:

RobB said:

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

I think that kids should be barred from public school unless they are vaccinated or can provide a medical waiver.

I also think that drunk drivers should be locked up and headlights should be mandatory at night.

Wacky, wacky ***** over here in South Orange New Jersey. Freedom shall suffer our wrath.

Interesting post. Interesting how you didn't answer my questions.

And Kaci Hickox was held for no good reason. She was asymptomatic and tested negative for Ebola.

LMAO. How do you people get out of bed in the morning?

You asked me what I think and I told you. If we're being honest, I don't know what you're talking about. Did someone suggest that parents should be required to hang an "unvaccinated" sign around their kids neck by penalty of law? I didn't see that - doesn't mean it didn't happen. I wouldn't sign that petition. I would sign one for the non-vaccinated kids in school thing I mentioned before.

Ebola tent lady absolutely shouldn't have been locked away - but she was. You said we can't limit freedom something something but that's clearly not the case. We can and have. Sometimes good (Mary) sometimes bad (tent lady) but it happens.

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

"Metaphysical"? That word makes no sense in that sentence.

I get it. The government should stay out of your *****. And I agree! But you're preaching weak form libertarianism. You've got the rights part figured out. The responsibilities to the rights of others you don't.

You are absolutely free to not vaccinate your kid. And your neighbors are absolutely free to not let their kids associate with your kid.

Of course, you can conceal your choice. Would you, knowing, for example, your kid could end up infecting an infant with whooping cough, or measles, or whatever happens to be circulating who goes with its mother to pick their sibling up at your kid's school? If the answer is "yes", well then, it's about being gutless and selfish, not about freedom and privacy.

Honestly, I am not losing any sleep over the plight of Ebola tent lady. Her inconvenience does not a tragedy make.

RobB said:

You asked me what I think and I told you. If we're being honest, I don't know what you're talking about. Did someone suggest that parents should be required to hang an "unvaccinated" sign around their kids neck by penalty of law? I didn't see that - doesn't mean it didn't happen. I wouldn't sign that petition. I would sign one for the non-vaccinated kids in school thing I mentioned before.

Ebola tent lady absolutely shouldn't have been locked away - but she was. You said we can't limit freedom something something but that's clearly not the case. We can and have. Sometimes good (Mary) sometimes bad (tent lady) but it happens.

Yes. Someone said it is our right to know. See below:

boomie said:

While I don't think we will ever get in front of this issue, as there will always be parents on the fringe who simply believe what they believe and will not be persuaded otherwise, and I don't think we can legally mandate the vaccinations, I think we have a right to know who IS and is NOT vaccinated. I think that's OUR right.

And I never said we can't limit freedom. I said we don't have the right to infringe on the rights of others. It's clearly impossible to have the right to infringe on the others rights. That doesn't mean that we can't infringe on the rights of others. We do that all the time.

The so=called childhood diseases are no joke. As an adult in my 70's, I had all of them--measles, mimps, chicken pox, german measles, whooping cough--in the bad old days before there were vaccinations against those diseases. I nearly died from the measles. A friend of mine had polio, and still, 69 years later, is experiencing the after effects of that disease, never mind the children who died of it or who were permanently disabled, or who lived out their lives in iron lungs. To say that it is childrens' right to get these diseases is the height of cruelty and ignorance. Such people should be horsewhipped.

Klinker said:

Honestly, I am not losing any sleep over the plight of Ebola tent lady. Her inconvenience does not a tragedy make.

I agree. It's not an issue until my rights are infringed upon. Infringe upon the rights of others? Have at it! AMIRITE?

Jackson_Fusion said:

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

"Metaphysical"? That word makes no sense in that sentence.

I get it. The government should stay out of your *****. And I agree! But you're preaching weak form libertarianism. You've got the rights part figured out. The responsibilities to the rights of others you don't.

You are absolutely free to not vaccinate your kid. And your neighbors are absolutely free to not let their kids associate with your kid.

Of course, you can conceal your choice. Would you, knowing, for example, your kid could end up infecting an infant with whooping cough, or measles, or whatever happens to be circulating who goes with its mother to pick their sibling up at your kid's school? If the answer is "yes", well then, it's about being gutless and selfish, not about freedom and privacy.

I've read this a number of times. I'm not sure what your point is. I generally do not knowingly put other people in danger. But, I don't get your point.

I will say this though. If you would give up rights to privacy to marginal threats to our lives such as the measles and terrorism, then you are gutless.

Life has risks. If you want to live life without risks then you will have no life.

TylerDurden said:

I will say this though. If you would give up rights to privacy to marginal threats to our lives such as the measles and terrorism, then you are gutless.

Life has risks. If you want to live life without risks then you will have no life.

There is no equivalency between childhood diseases about which a great deal is known and threats of terrorism. The benefits of vaccination programs are most definitely quantifiable and provide a rather specific basis for asking all people to get vaccinated.

Your last sentence, of course, is one of those platitudes that doesn't really help anybody make good public policy decisions.

Settle down. Some lady on a web forum said she had a right to know that people are unvaccinated. Some guy (me) thinks unvaccinated kids should be barred from public school. She and I are both losing the battle to the freedom camp. Rejoice! You've won the big game. What are you going to do now?

Show of hands: Who here among the reasonable anti-anti-vaxxers has encouraged their tweens and teens to finish three rounds of Gardasil?

j_r said:

Show of hands: Who here among the reasonable anti-anti-vaxxers has encouraged their tweens and teens to finish three rounds of Guardasil?

Why do you ask? Seems like a reasonable vaccine to me other than the fact that it encourages promiscuity.

TylerDurden said:

Klinker said:

Honestly, I am not losing any sleep over the plight of Ebola tent lady. Her inconvenience does not a tragedy make.

I agree. It's not an issue until my rights are infringed upon. Infringe upon the rights of others? Have at it! AMIRITE?

The right of states to enact quarantines was established in Article 1 of the Constitution and affirmed by the fricking MARSHALL COURT for Christs sake. Get over it.

TylerDurden said:

Klinker said:

Honestly, I am not losing any sleep over the plight of Ebola tent lady. Her inconvenience does not a tragedy make.

I agree. It's not an issue until my rights are infringed upon. Infringe upon the rights of others? Have at it! AMIRITE?

Jackson_Fusion said:

TylerDurden said:

You think its reasonable to start asking other parents if they get their kids vaccinated, due to 91 people in the country contracting measles?

Furthermore, you think based on this clearly metaphysical threat to our very way of life we should give up our privacy rights?

"Metaphysical"? That word makes no sense in that sentence.

I get it. The government should stay out of your *****. And I agree! But you're preaching weak form libertarianism. You've got the rights part figured out. The responsibilities to the rights of others you don't.

You are absolutely free to not vaccinate your kid. And your neighbors are absolutely free to not let their kids associate with your kid.

Of course, you can conceal your choice. Would you, knowing, for example, your kid could end up infecting an infant with whooping cough, or measles, or whatever happens to be circulating who goes with its mother to pick their sibling up at your kid's school? If the answer is "yes", well then, it's about being gutless and selfish, not about freedom and privacy.

I've read this a number of times. I'm not sure what your point is. I generally do not knowingly put other people in danger. But, I don't get your point.

I will say this though. If you would give up rights to privacy to marginal threats to our lives such as the measles and terrorism, then you are gutless.

Life has risks. If you want to live life without risks then you will have no life.

Unsurprising for a guy who threw out a word like he was Daymon Wayans in a in Living Color skit I suppose.

Boil down: you have a right to not vaccinate your kid. Others have a right to keep their kid away from you based on your decision. If you choose to hide a decision from which you have clearly decided their are no consequences from others, effectively making their decision for them, it's ridiculous for you to gnash your teeth and flail about how others are violating your freedom.

And dude.. you "generally" try not to knowingly put people in danger? Might want to tighten that one up.