Anti-vaxxers in Maplewood?

annemarie said:

I hate the fact that I'm scared to put them on a plane for vacation in a few weeks.

And today's news points out that a measles shedding college student traveled through Penn Station on Amtrak. So now Bard College is running vaccination clinics...

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ny-measles-patient-boarded-amtrak-train-penn-station/story?id=28619871

I'm looking at this year's SOMSD registration package and there are three exemptions: 1) physician's certificate stating the immunization are contraindicated, 2) parent/guardian letter to request religious exemption, or 3) physician's statement that immunization are in progress. I'm disappointed that it's so easy. A freaking letter that allows these parents to endanger all these kids, especially the ones that fall in the first category? Ugh.

That Penn and Teller clip is awesome. How do you even refute that?

Which religions have edicts against vaccines?

@muppet your story really frightens me. Public school is one thing- at least by that age most kids are old enough to have received all of their vaccines so most have protection. But in a preschool- especially one that also is a daycare with infants- it's unacceptable to me that exemptions are offered. If you choose not to vaccinate, you do NOT get to choose to send your kids to a private daycare where there are babies. Absolutely not okay.

Klinker said:

Which religions have edicts against vaccines?

I haven't time to read it all but here's a person's account of what he's found regarding religion and vaccinations.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/religions-state-vaccines/

tjohn said:

MOL_Rat said:

Your right to practice your religion ends at the tip of your disease-infested, non-vaccinated rugrat.

There should be no, none, zero, nada religious exemptions for public health concerns that don't also carry a requirement to school your kids separately, disclose their non-vax status, etc. As others have said- it's shameful, selfish, and totally unsupported by widely accepted science, facts, and law.

Don't like it? Move to a wide open state far away and stay away from the rational herds here.

I'm hoping we get some 'defenders' posting up. I have my shouting-down trousers on.

I don't get the impression that the genuinely religious people are the problem. A bigger problem is supposedly rational people going overboard on the view that they should reject all things not natural or supposedly rational people still believing that there is a link between vaccines and autism.

It's not ultra religious. It is tree hugging homeopathic anti-science people. Often upper class. There are huge areas of non vaccinated people on affluent areas of Southern and Northern California.

cdub said:

Afa, would you mind posting the name of the lactation consultant or at least PMing me with their name if you don't feel comfortable publicly posting it? I recently found out I'm pregnant with my first (yay!) and I want to make sure I'm not using a consultant who is against vaccinations.

I'm hoping the current measles outbreak will be a big wake-up call for people who are considering not vaccinating their children.

Congrats. And thanks.

According to the article posted by Bikefixed, it seems the only religious folk we have to worry about are those who belong to the Dutch Reformed Church and those who follow the "I'm-An-Ignorant-Ass" faith.

Anti vaxxers are 100% wrong.

Now that that is out of the way....

Most people don't respond well to mocking or ridicule. Ignorant, "wrong and strong" types perhaps moreso. Unless the coercion is physical (and it never will, nor should it, be) it's a poor tool.

Of course, they haven't, to this point, responded to reason either. One positive- these are people who obviously care deeply about their children. They care less, of course, for the families of others, but how is that different from anyone else?

Appealing to their self interest, primarily, and perhaps a broader sense of decency, secondarily, seems more likely to garner results than smashing them.

That said, if one of them snuck the perimeter into public place and came anywhere near an infant child of mine they probably wouldn't get my best argument as a response.

There are definitely anti-vaxxers amongst us. I used to be approached by neighbors, hopefully they have updated their ideas. I doubt it though. Trying to get through to someone that self absorbed is difficult. We didn't keep in close contact with those folks though. The school exemptions are easy to get. Here's hoping for the best. The concept that we need to take care of everyone with things like vaccinations will come back, once many, many more children die.

Before I had kids, I thought that I'd stretch the vaccine schedule a bit to not overwhelm their systems (or something...). But the minute I had my first kid, I wanted her protected. I've never questioned the doctor's schedule. I'm lucky that my kids have been healthy so far, and I'm not going to leave them open to something that is totally preventable.

PeggyC said:

According to the article posted by Bikefixed, it seems the only religious folk we have to worry about are those who belong to the Dutch Reformed Church and those who follow the "I'm-An-Ignorant-Ass" faith.

Most Amish don't vaccinate. When you visit Amish country you should realize you're inserting yourself into the un-vaccinated population pool.

The problem is the religious exemption. The self-absorbed tree hugging homeopathic anti-science people use that exemption.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/30/amid-measles-outbreak-anti-vaccine-doctor-revels-in-his-notoriety/

My sympathy for anti vaccine parents does not extend to Wakefield and the clown in this article. Right for the fame in the case of the latter and in for the lawsuit money for the former. As medical professionals of course they know better. Sociopathic.

"My dad was a cardiologist and you are a bad mother" guy is a total cartoon.

There are some children who legitimately experience side effects (not autism) and that is incredibly sad. Like anything, there are small risks. Most of us decide the risk of NOT getting vaccinated is greater.

But I put kids who are unable to get vaccinated in the category of people who are counting on the rest of us to vaccinate.

Jackson_Fusion said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/30/amid-measles-outbreak-anti-vaccine-doctor-revels-in-his-notoriety/

My sympathy for anti vaccine parents does not extend to Wakefield and the clown in this article. Right for the fame in the case of the latter and in for the lawsuit money for the former. As medical professionals of course they know better. Sociopathic.

"My dad was a cardiologist and you are a bad mother" guy is a total cartoon.

Really stupid comment by Wolfson in the above story

Amid this outbreak, Wolfson actively urges people to avoid vaccines. “We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it,” he told the Arizona Republic. “We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system.” He added: “I’m a big fan of what’s called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years…. That’s the best way to protect.”

He left out a few. Be consistent and add some others to his list which the so-called chemicals (vaccines) prevented - Polio, TB and Smallpox.


Another Dr wrote about Wolfson

“I’ll be sending a copy of your highly irresponsible and reckless comments to the Arizona Medical Board for review,” one said. “As a pediatrician who has seen unvaccinated children die from vaccine preventable diseases and also seen whooping cough go through my practice area in 2013 thanks to declining vaccination rates, you do not deserve to hold a license to practice medicine in AZ.”

Wolfson does deserve to lose his license but I doubt that will occur. Very low standards have become the norm.

I think pediatricians hold the key to squelching the anti-vax movement. What we need is an organized movement among pediatricians across the board to refuse to accept unvaccinated kids as patients. These families will then all be forced to seek out the few quacks who will see them and, eventually, infect each other. That should put a stop to it. Harsh? Perhaps, but these folks have already demonstrated that they will not listen to reason. Appeals to science and the public good already fails to move them. Coercion is the only other alternative.

I don't get the whole paleo thing at all. It's not like life expectancies were very good back then.

Jackson_Fusion said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/30/amid-measles-outbreak-anti-vaccine-doctor-revels-in-his-notoriety/

My sympathy for anti vaccine parents does not extend to Wakefield and the clown in this article. Right for the fame in the case of the latter and in for the lawsuit money for the former. As medical professionals of course they know better. Sociopathic.

"My dad was a cardiologist and you are a bad mother" guy is a total cartoon.

More from this doc. Stupid piled on top of stupid. How'd he make it through med school?

Amid this outbreak, Wolfson actively urges people to avoid vaccines. “We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it,” he told the Arizona Republic. “We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system.” He added: “I’m a big fan of what’s called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years…. That’s the best way to protect.”

Almost lost a Facebook friend over vax this week. I decided to agree to disagree, but the resistance of these people to reason is remarkable.

eta: oops. dup post.

sac said:

I don't get the whole paleo thing at all. It's not like life expectancies were very good back then.

I don't think there is any science behind it whereas there is plenty of science behind diets such as Mediterranean diets.

I know people make fun of my woo obsession, but it's all part and parcel to the same thing. You either believe in the science or you don't. You can't pick and choose.

davidfrazer said:

I think pediatricians hold the key to squelching the anti-vax movement. What we need is an organized movement among pediatricians across the board to refuse to accept unvaccinated kids as patients. These families will then all be forced to seek out the few quacks who will see them and, eventually, infect each other. That should put a stop to it. Harsh? Perhaps, but these folks have already demonstrated that they will not listen to reason. Appeals to science and the public good already fails to move them. Coercion is the only other alternative.

Terribly unethical. Some pediatricians have opted to do so, of course, but only because they know another doctor will see the patient. The children are innocent in this, and no pediatrician (except lunatics like the aforementioned Wolfson) would send away a child who needs medical care which, in most cases, will be totally unrelated to a lack of vaccination, knowing the child will find no other care.

There is however a fair case to be made for protecting other patients. That's an issue separate from excluding the unvaccinated on principle, though the result may be the same.

We've seen whooping cough make a comeback but given the communicability of measles this very well could be the event that makes for some very ugly confrontations between government, professional organizations, and wrong headed parents.

We have one cousin-in-law who works in health care and refuses flu vaccination. She spends her entire winter wearing masks at work, and I spend mine holding my tongue, since it just wouldn't help.

Yeah, but they* obviously didn't die off as we're descended from them.


*the ones who lived

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028. The odds of the measels turning into a serious health issue is about 1 in 1000 once you've contracted ithe disease.

Does that include dead Americans?

I don't think you can get it if you're dead.

Jackson_Fusion said:

davidfrazer said:

I think pediatricians hold the key to squelching the anti-vax movement. What we need is an organized movement among pediatricians across the board to refuse to accept unvaccinated kids as patients. These families will then all be forced to seek out the few quacks who will see them and, eventually, infect each other. That should put a stop to it. Harsh? Perhaps, but these folks have already demonstrated that they will not listen to reason. Appeals to science and the public good already fails to move them. Coercion is the only other alternative.

Terribly unethical. Some pediatricians have opted to do so, of course, but only because they know another doctor will see the patient. The children are innocent in this, and no pediatrician (except lunatics like the aforementioned Wolfson) would send away a child who needs medical care which, in most cases, will be totally unrelated to a lack of vaccination, knowing the child will find no other care.

I'm not sure if its unethical.

An important requirement, a must, with pediatrics is a course of vaccinations. If the parents refuse to follow the specified treatments, the Dr has the right to tell the parents that they need to find someone else.

Same as with an Oncologist. If you refuse the Dr's treatment for cancer, the Dr has the right to inform the you that because you refuse to follow his treatment and advice, he can no longer can have you as his patient. Or with any other specialty.

Actually, that would be the ethical thing to do. Its not ethical to hang onto patients who refuse treatment.

If the children who cannot get a pediatrician have an issue, they can always go to a Minute or Urgent care clinic.

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028. The odds of the measels turning into a serious health issue is about 1 in 1000 once you've contracted ithe disease.

1 in 1000 will be dead.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/faqs-dis-vac-risks.htm

Woot said:

cdub said:

Afa, would you mind posting the name of the lactation consultant or at least PMing me with their name if you don't feel comfortable publicly posting it? I recently found out I'm pregnant with my first (yay!) and I want to make sure I'm not using a consultant who is against vaccinations.

I'm hoping the current measles outbreak will be a big wake-up call for people who are considering not vaccinating their children.

Congrats. And thanks.

I don't think tree hugging (which I support) has anything to do with antivaxxing (which I oppose).

TylerDurden said:

Odds of being an american who has contracted measels =.00000028.

Because vaccine.