Amazon just pulled out of N.Y.C.

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

Sure there are.  Do they have the resources?  Will they demand accommodations similar to Amazon? 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

 Let’s agree to wait and watch this transaction.  Disney buys a building from a church that owned it since the revolution.  What are will the tax implications be?  What will the church do with that money?

Red_Barchetta said:
 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

Sure there are.  Do they have the resources?  Will they demand accommodations similar to Amazon? 

Even Amazon isn't demanding accommodations similar to Amazon to move jobs to NY.

Amazon to take office space in 5 Manhattan West at Hudson Yards

ml1 said:

yahooyahoo said:

Poor little Jeff didn't get his way so he took his toys and went home.  Amazon didn't like getting bullied after they bullied multiple cities for corporate welfare.
 
this seems to be a very accurate description of what played out.

On Wednesday, Mr. Cuomo had even brokered a meeting between Amazon executives and union leaders who had been resistant to the deal — including from the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store union and the Teamsters.  

“Amazon and the governor and everybody agreed yesterday on a way to move forward,” said Stuart Appelbaum of the retail union, who was part of the meeting. “Shame on them. The arrogance of saying ‘do it my way or not at all.”’  
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

A more accurate description is that managers at Amazon concluded that they didn't need this b.s. and that it was just a distraction.  Arguably, they should have been more sensitive to the community impacts and overall optics.  And maybe they learned some lessons from this.  Time will tell.

Red_Barchetta said:
 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

Sure there are.  Do they have the resources?  Will they demand accommodations similar to Amazon? 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

 Let’s agree to wait and watch this transaction.  Disney buys a building from a church that owned it since the revolution.  What are will the tax implications be?  What will the church do with that money?

 ETA:  The Disney purchase is a relocation from their current site in NYC.  

tjohn said:

Arguably, they should have been more sensitive to the community impacts and overall optics.  And maybe they learned some lessons from this.  Time will tell.

 Yes.  After the initial knee-jerk blaming of progressives, some business journalists are taking another look at Amazon's 500 pound gorilla tactics in NY:

Amazon put two years and untold amounts of staff time and money into negotiating with New York to save about $3 billion on a new campus in one of America's most dynamic cities. It bypassed legislative bodies to avoid getting bogged down in local politics. And it kept the whole process secret, allowing the company, the mayor, and the governor to present the agreement as a fait accompli.  
All those carefully laid plans vaporized when Amazon declared the Long Island City project dead Thursday morning.  Where did Amazon go wrong?  
After staging a highly public auction that drew bids from hundreds of cities, the company attempted to craft uncrackable deals with its chosen cities that would avoid community input until most of the details were worked out. In New York, that may have ultimately led to the agreement's demise

How Amazon blew its chance in New York

Red_Barchetta said:

Red_Barchetta said:
 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

Sure there are.  Do they have the resources?  Will they demand accommodations similar to Amazon? 

ml1 said:
there are plenty of other tech companies that want to move to NYC, big and small. There is only one NYC. 

 Let’s agree to wait and watch this transaction.  Disney buys a building from a church that owned it since the revolution.  What are will the tax implications be?  What will the church do with that money?

 ETA:  The Disney purchase is a relocation from their current site in NYC.  

 Indeed it is.  I wasn't clear about that earlier.  I meant to cite Disney as an example of a business reaffirming its commitment to doing business in NYC, not as a company moving there.  I thought it was obvious that Disney is already there, but I didn't make the point I was trying to make.

Klinker said:

Robert_Casotto said:
AOC’s rap name should be Ghostface Jobkillah.

 Your rap name should be Racist Whitetroll.

 In that I’m not white, that’s doubly defamatory.  

ml1 said:

bub said:
Not commenting on merits of the Amazon deal. I don't even feel competent to do so.  But I'm quite skeptical of this "hey its New Yawk everyone wants to be there anyway" rationalization.  The fortunes of cities (and everything and everyone else) rise and fall, with good and bad decision making having a lot to do with it.  The NYC of the 60s did not envision the broke decaying NYC of the 70s.  Conversely, those of us who came of age in the NYC of the 70s did not have the slightest glimmer of the massive renewal and gentrification waves to come in subsequent decades.  Things change.  

 certainly.  But the broader context is that NYC is and has been a destination for tech firms for quite some time.  The decline of the 60s and 70s was because of broader trends in manufacturing and shipping that meant those businesses were not just leaving NY, but leaving the U.S.
Unless the technology sector itself declines, it's not likely that companies are going to abandon NY because Amazon walked away.  It has one of the largest technology talent pools in the world.  Amazon walked because they didn't want to make any concessions to labor or to the residents of Queens.  That's not the kind of corporate neighbor that other tech companies should be aspiring to be and expect to just walk into NYC without facing objections.

Amazon doesn't need tax breaks to move to NYC.  They clearly value the talent pool in the area and NYC.  The bottom line is that they wanted to keep as much of their money as possible.  It's all about greed.

yahooyahoo said:
Amazon doesn't need tax breaks to move to NYC.  They clearly value the talent pool in the area and NYC.  The bottom line is that they wanted to keep as much of their money as possible.  It's all about greed.

 If it was just greed they would have gone to Newark, getting a 7 billion deal instead of 3. The labor pool would have been the same.

ml1 said:
25,000 jobs is a blip in NYC.   There are over 4 million people employed in NYC.  And plenty of other tech companies are expanding there.  There is a really good argument that of all the contenders, NYC was the least justified in giving Amazon a tax break.  There are already a long list of good business reasons for Amazon to locate there, just as Google has done.
That said, a city like Newark has a lot more to gain from Amazon locating there.  The tax breaks NJ was giving can be justified as an investment in a city that really needs the stimulus Amazon would bring.  NYC, not so much.

 It might be a blip for you. Not for those looking for those jobs.

ml1 said:

newstead77 said: Simple moral of this story - if you make it too difficult for a business to do business (political opposition, onerous taxes etc.) they will just go elsewhere.

 and the reverse is true too. If you try to bully the residents of a city into handing you a lot of goodies and offering nothing to the neighborhood in return, they'll tell you to take a hike. NY really doesn't need HQ2. 

 Really? The neighborhood residents, those actually live there, differ.

Sen. Mike Gianaris and Councilman Jimmy Van Bramer cloaked their opposition to the deal, at least at first, in principled objections to the size of tax subsidies. But the truth is they were unpersuadable.

Why else would they ramp up their opposition even after polls showed their constituents in strong support of the headquarters?

Why else would Gianaris reject Amazon's three invitations to meet? Why else would Van Bramer refuse to take part in a panel designed to shape community benefits?

Why else would the two turn a deaf ear to the public housing residents they claimed to value? Thursday, the presidents of four nearby developments excoriated the men: "They never asked what we, the people of NYCHA, actually wanted...and did not meet with us or even listen to us."

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-edit-of-mice-and-men-20190215-story.html

BG9 said:

yahooyahoo said:
Amazon doesn't need tax breaks to move to NYC.  They clearly value the talent pool in the area and NYC.  The bottom line is that they wanted to keep as much of their money as possible.  It's all about greed.

 If it was just greed they would have gone to Newark, getting a 7 billion deal instead of 3. The labor pool would have been the same.

As much as we would like to think so, picking Newark is not the same as picking NYC.

yahooyahoo said:

BG9 said:

yahooyahoo said:
Amazon doesn't need tax breaks to move to NYC.  They clearly value the talent pool in the area and NYC.  The bottom line is that they wanted to keep as much of their money as possible.  It's all about greed.

 If it was just greed they would have gone to Newark, getting a 7 billion deal instead of 3. The labor pool would have been the same.

As much as we would like to think so, picking Newark is not the same as picking NYC.

 Why is picking Newark not the same as Queens?

BG9 said:

Why is picking Newark not the same as Queens?

You’re a young tech whiz with an Amazon-wants-you résumé. Would you prefer to both live and work in the Bright Lights Big City, or would you rather add an NJT or PATH link to your daily life?

DaveSchmidt said:

BG9 said:

Why is picking Newark not the same as Queens?

You’re a young tech whiz with an Amazon-wants-you résumé. Would you prefer to both live and work in the Bright Lights Big City, or would you rather add an NJT or PATH link to your daily life?

I know some NYC residents working at a Chase headquarters and also at a large brokerage in NJ at Journal Square. They don't find their path commute inconvenient. They prefer that over the subway. But then they are now mostly going "against the traffic." 

Many of those Chase people worked at 4 NY Plaza. A few of them even moved to NJ.

I'm sure Maplewood with other NJ communities can supply tech whizzes. Or do you believe NJ's tech pool is lacking? A hinterland?

BG9 said:

I'm sure Maplewood with other NJ communities can supply tech whizzes. Or do you believe NJ's tech pool is lacking? A hinterland?

Only a hunch, but I suspect the appeal of NYC as an off-hours playground to Amazon’s current leaders and the future workers they aim to recruit (as few off hours as there may be) is greater than, yes, the comparative hinterland of North Jersey.

Since Amazon has retreated from NYC, you could argue that it’s fairer now to compare Newark with Nashville or the other Amazon locations where those jobs will be spread instead. But that would sidestep the original NYC-Newark comparison.

Corporate, community, educational, political and labor groups wrote a letter asking that Amazon change its mind.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/640-amazon-ad-nyt/23be553f1bef2065302d/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

I wonder if this is just a tactic by Amazon to squeeze further concessions out of NY State and NYC?

yahooyahoo said:
I wonder if this is just a tactic by Amazon to squeeze further concessions out of NY State and NYC?

How would Amazon get these people to be used for a tactic? They're not stupid.

For example, I can educational institutions signing on. Yearly there will be thousands of internships and jobs for their graduates. 

The signors:

Plinio Ayala
President & CEO, Per Scholas, Inc.

Ajay Banga
President & CEO, Mastercard

Rob Basch
President, Hunters Point Parks Conservancy

Eric Benaim
CEO, ModernSpaces

Neil Blumenthal
Co-Founder & Co-CEO, Warby Parker

Seth Bornstein
Executive Director,
Queens Economic
Development Corporation

Josh Bowen
Owner, John Brown Smokehouse

Charles Boyce
President and CEO,
Boyce Technologies, Inc.

Gianna P. Cerbone
Owner & Chef, Manducatis

Rustica VIG; President,
Queens Council on the Arts and Board Member, LIC YMCA

Kenneth I. Chenault
Chairman & Managing Director, General Catalyst Partners

Mark A.Christie
President, Hunters Point Community Development Corporation

Mario Cilento
President, NYS, AFL-CIO

Claudia Coger
Tenant Association President, Astoria Houses

Michael L. Corbat
Chief Executive Officer, Citigroup Inc.

Hon. David Dinkins
Former Mayor, City of New York

Danny Donahue
President, Civil Service Employees Association

Donna Drimer
President, Matted LIC

Hazel Dukes
President, NAACP New York State Conference

Catherine Engelbert
Chief Executive Officer, Deloitte

Hector J. Figueroa
President, 32BJ SEIU

William E. Ford
Chief Executive Officer, General Atlantic LLC

James P. Gorman
Chairman & CEO, Morgan Stanley

Thomas Grech
President & CEO, Queens Chamber of Commerce

Rev. Dr. Johnnie Green
Mount Neboh Baptist Church & President of MPAC
(Mobilizing Pastors & Communities)

George Gresham
President, 1199 SEIU

Andrew Hamilton
President, New York University
Christopher Hanway
Executive Director, Jacob A. Riis Neighborhood Settlement

Robin Hayes
President & CEO, JetBlue Airways Corporation

Jukay Hsu
Founder & CEO, Pursuit

Hon. Hakeem Jeffries
Congressman, U.S. House of Representatives

Marion Jeffries
President , NAACPAstoria/LIC Branch

Kristina Johnson
Chancellor, State University of NewYork

Jelena Kovacevic
Dean, Tandon School of Engineering, New York University

Gary LaBarbera
President, Building & Construction Trades Council of Greater New York

Mary Beth Labate
President, Commission on Independent Colleges and Universities

Kevin S. Law
President & CEO, Long Island Association

Joey Levin
Chief Executive Officer, IAC

Anthony Lopez
Executive Director, Zone 126

Elizabeth Lusskin
President, Long Island City Partnership

Hon. Carolyn Maloney
Congresswoman, U.S. House of Representative

Rev. Corwin Mason
Community Church of Astoria CAC

Felix Matos Rodriguez
Chancellor Designee, The City University of New York

Bill McDermott
Chief Executive Officer, SAP

Hon. Gregory Meeks
Congressman, U.S. House of Representatives
Gail Mellow
President, LaGuardia Community College

Marc Morial
Chief Executive Officer, National Urban League

Anne Cotton Morris
Tenant Association President, Woodside Houses

Michael Mulgrew
President, United Federation of Teachers

Deanna M.Mulligan
President & CEO, The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America

Hon. Catherine Nolan
Assemblywoman, New York State Assembly

Jon Oringer
Founder & CEO, Shutterstock, Inc

.
CharlesE.Phillips, Jr.
Chief Executive Officer, Infor

Rev. Gilbert Pickett
Mount Horeb Baptist Church

Martha Pollack
President, Cornell University

Miriam Porto
Owner, Madera Cuban Grill & Steakhouse and R40 Argentinian Restaurant

Frank “Turtle” Raffaele
Founder, COFFEED

Hon. Max Rose
Congressman, U.S. House of Representatives
Steven Rubenstein
Chairman, Association for a Better New York

Robert Rubin
FormerSecretary, U.S. Treasury

William C. Rudin
Co-Chairman & CEO, Rudin Management Company, Inc.

Kevin P. Ryan
Chairman & Founder, Zola, Workframe, Nomad Health, MongoDB,Inc.

Kris Schrey

President, Long Island City Parents Group

Carlo Scissura
President & CEO, NewYork Building Congress

April Simpson
Tenant Association President Queensbridge Houses

David M. Solomon
Chairman & CEO, Goldman Sachs & Co.

Rob Speyer
President & CEO, Tishman Speyer

Douglas C. Steiner
Chairman, Steiner Studios

Alan Suna
Chief Executive Officer, Silvercup Studios

Steven R. Swartz
President & CEO, Hearst

Bishop Mitchell Taylor
Senior Pastor, Center of Hope International & Co-Founder, Urban Upbound

Dennis Walcott
President & CEO, Queens Library

George H. Walker
Chairman & CEO, Neuberger Berman Group LLC

Peter T. Ward
President, New York Hotel Trades Council

Carol Wilkins
Tenant Association President Ravenswood Houses

Fred Wilson
Managing Partner & Chairman, CSNYC; Co-Chair Tech:NYC; & Partner, Union Square Ventures

Tom Wright
President, Regional Plan Association

Kathryn S. Wylde
President & CEO, Partnership for New York City

Rev. Patrick Henry Young
First Baptist Church of East Elmhurst CAC

BG9 said:

yahooyahoo said:
I wonder if this is just a tactic by Amazon to squeeze further concessions out of NY State and NYC?

How would Amazon get these people to be used for a tactic? They're not stupid.
For example, I can educational institutions signing on. Yearly there will be thousands of internships and jobs for their graduates. 
The signors:

I was referring to Amazon walking away from the deal. Is this a negotiation tactic to try and gain additional concessions?

I'm not referring to the open letter to Amazon. 

yahooyahoo said:
I wonder if this is just a tactic by Amazon to squeeze further concessions out of NY State and NYC?

No, it's not. This was spearheaded by Cuomo and the letter is signed by a wide range of interest groups - union leaders, colleges, local officials, business owners- it's across the board. I don't think it will persuade Amazon to reconsider, but it's worth a shot.  

eta - Cross-posted with yahooyahoo. No, I don't think Amazon's tactic in walking away was to get more concessions. 

Relevant article up at the NYT:

Amazon’s Hard Bargain Extends Far Beyond New York

Some excerpts:

Virtually all of America’s largest businesses drive a hard bargain with governments, angling for benefits and financial incentives. Amazon, though, often plays politics with a distinctive message: Give us what we want, or we’ll leave and take our jobs elsewhere.

The tactics help Amazon squeeze as much as possible out of politicians.

...

New York’s experience with Amazon also exposed the company’s limited experience with building community relationships. The company did not hire any local employees or lobbyists to connect with New York residents in advance of announcing the deal. Until recent years, almost no one at the company worked full-time in community or government relations, though it now has more than 100 lobbyists registered in statehouses to push its priorities.

That lack of a significant on-the-ground strategy helped doom the deal in New York, and it is causing headaches elsewhere.

...

Amazon grew from start-up to behemoth in Seattle, devouring new towers and buildable land. Nevertheless, the company kept its distance from local lawmakers. In 2009, the mayor and governor threw a groundbreaking ceremony for new Amazon buildings. No Amazon executives attended
...
In recent years, Amazon made some gestures of civic responsibility, including in 2017, when it committed to build a shelter for homeless families in a new tower. That year, Amazon also hired its first employee to build a team focused on philanthropy. More than a dozen people now work on that effort.
But it didn’t speak up on policy issues, including ways to address the skyrocketing housing prices in the area. That changed in 2018, when the City Council debated a tax on large employers, which was meant to pay for homeless services and affordable housing.
Amazon stood up in opposition, telling a newspaper columnist that it would halt plans to build one new tower and reconsider its lease on a second. The threat sent shock waves through the city.