DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)
yahooyahoo said:
nan said:I agree that poverty is a huge problem in the U.S. but where do you get half the people are below the poverty level?
Years of voting lesser evil and what do we have? We live in the richest country in the world and half the people are below the poverty level and so many live paycheck to paycheck.
Same place that sees the party made it possible for millions of people to have health insurance and the party that is trying its hardest to deny health care access to millions as being equivalent.
yahooyahoo said:
nan said:I agree that poverty is a huge problem in the U.S. but where do you get half the people are below the poverty level?
Years of voting lesser evil and what do we have? We live in the richest country in the world and half the people are below the poverty level and so many live paycheck to paycheck.
can't wait to see the response to this one.
additional reading about poverty statistics
https://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/9337041/supplemental-poverty-measure
A series of comments from July:
nan said:
cramer said:Cramer - Here is a rebuttal of the Ballotpedia.org check: Yes, Half of Americans Are In or Near Poverty: Here's More Evidence https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/10/16/yes-half-americans-are-or-near-poverty-heres-more-evidencenan - I had to check that out. It seems that Jill Stein made that claim. Fact Check did a lengthy analysis and found this not to be true. "Where does this leave us with Stein’s claim that “one in two Americans remain in or near poverty”? We found it to be untrue according to most conventional measures and definitions of near poverty. The official Census Bureau measure got us nowhere near 50 percent of the population when combined with any of the commonly used definitions of near poverty. Moreover, if we combined the SPM with the commonly-used definition of near poverty as between 100 and 150 percent of the poverty line, it comes out to only 32 percent of the population, or roughly one in three Americans." https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Does_half_of_the_U.S._live_%22in_or_near_poverty%22%3F
nan said:
Bernie’s popularity is easily explained when you look at his policies and see what is going on in the country. We have the richest country in the world and half the people are below the poverty level
DaveSchmidt said:
A series of comments from July:
nan said:
cramer said:Cramer - Here is a rebuttal of the Ballotpedia.org check: Yes, Half of Americans Are In or Near Poverty: Here's More Evidence https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/10/16/yes-half-americans-are-or-near-poverty-heres-more-evidencenan - I had to check that out. It seems that Jill Stein made that claim. Fact Check did a lengthy analysis and found this not to be true. "Where does this leave us with Stein’s claim that “one in two Americans remain in or near poverty”? We found it to be untrue according to most conventional measures and definitions of near poverty. The official Census Bureau measure got us nowhere near 50 percent of the population when combined with any of the commonly used definitions of near poverty. Moreover, if we combined the SPM with the commonly-used definition of near poverty as between 100 and 150 percent of the poverty line, it comes out to only 32 percent of the population, or roughly one in three Americans." https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Does_half_of_the_U.S._live_%22in_or_near_poverty%22%3F
nan said:
Bernie’s popularity is easily explained when you look at his policies and see what is going on in the country. We have the richest country in the world and half the people are below the poverty level
So as long as we get to pick our definitions, we can make any assertion true?
I'm with Cramer. Also, according to Robert Reich, 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/29/us-economy-workers-paycheck-robert-reich
Even the cited article from Common Dreams says half of Americans are in or near poverty, which is different from the claim that half are below the poverty level. I don't think it's nitpicky to insist on a bit more accuracy.
nan said:
I'm with Cramer.
Read the July exchange again. You’re not with cramer.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:Read the July exchange again. You’re not with cramer.
I'm with Cramer.
Ok, I'm with whomever says we have a significant wealth inequality problem in this country and lots of poor people and people who are barely getting by. Lots of insecurity. This will be a critical issue in the 2020 election. A believable candidate who can propose solutions for wealth inequality and for making the rich pay their fair share will get more people excited and motivated to vote.
nan said:Ok, I'm with whomever says we have a significant wealth inequality problem in this country and lots of poor people and people who are barely getting by. Lots of insecurity. This will be a critical issue in the 2020 election. A believable candidate who can propose solutions for wealth inequality and for making the rich pay their fair share will get more people excited and motivated to vote.
There’s plenty of room to say those things without contending that half of Americans are living in poverty.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:Ok, I'm with whomever says we have a significant wealth inequality problem in this country and lots of poor people and people who are barely getting by. Lots of insecurity. This will be a critical issue in the 2020 election. A believable candidate who can propose solutions for wealth inequality and for making the rich pay their fair share will get more people excited and motivated to vote.
nan said:Read the July exchange again. You’re not with cramer.
I'm with Cramer.
I'd argue that details like whether half of Americans are below the poverty line, half of Americans are at or near the poverty line, or the real poverty rate is 13.9% (2016 numbers, via Census, via Vox article DB posted) make a difference. Maybe not on the stump -- Trump's had a lot of political success by bulldozing through such concerns, after all -- but in terms of actually enacting policy -- Trump has very little to show for two years of having his party control all three branches.
To wit -- in other threads, you've conflated the fact that high numbers of Americans support the idea of "medicare for all" with the assertion that a plan along that advanced by Sanders has strong support. The latter does not flow from the former, and the Democratic candidate running for president in 2020 on a platform of medicare for all better do some research to find out what, precisely, voters actually do support lest they blithely assume 70% of Americans are already on board and so no further work to build up support is needed.
nan said:
Ok, I'm with whomever says we have a significant wealth inequality problem in this country and lots of poor people and people who are barely getting by. Lots of insecurity. This will be a critical issue in the 2020 election. A believable candidate who can propose solutions for wealth inequality and for making the rich pay their fair share will get more people excited and motivated to vote.
If people get the wrong information about what the problem, it's harder for politicians with those real solutions to the real problem to "get more people excited".
Let's go back to this: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/10/16/yes-half-americans-are-or-near-poverty-heres-more-evidence
Some of you can convince yourselves that the poverty rate is only 13% and living wage jobs plentiful everything is fine and a centrist Democrat that skateboards and takes oil money or similar will get us back on track, but you are all living in a fantasy world. We are surrounded by poverty and suffering and it's all over the country, and in parts looking like a third world (https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-un-poverty-environmental-racism-743601) and so many don't have access to healthcare and the average lifespan is falling and suicide and overdoses and it's a huge mess. People are at the end of their ropes. MOL is a tiny island and one person here arguing that poverty is not a problem lives in the biggest house in my neighborhood, so maybe they are not getting the scope. I don't know but anyone who thinks wealth inequality and poverty is not a MAJOR problem in this country is delusional.
And if you don't believe me on Medicare for All, then listen to Robert Friggin' Reich, one of your own: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/robert-reich-the-time-has-come-for-medicare-for-all/
nan said:
Some of you can convince yourselves that the poverty rate is only 13% and living wage jobs plentiful everything is fine and a centrist Democrat that skateboards and takes oil money or similar will get us back on track, but you are all living in a fantasy world. We are surrounded by poverty and suffering and it's all over the country, and in parts looking like a third world (https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-un-poverty-environmental-racism-743601) and so many don't have access to healthcare and the average lifespan is falling and suicide and overdoses and it's a huge mess. People are at the end of their ropes. MOL is a tiny island and one person here arguing that poverty is not a problem lives in the biggest house in my neighborhood, so maybe they are not getting the scope. I don't know but anyone who thinks wealth inequality and poverty is not a MAJOR problem in this country is delusional.
The fantasy world, it seems to me, is one where somebody can read the previous posts and conclude that the commenters think living-wage jobs are plentiful, and everything’s fine, and wealth inequality and poverty are not major problems.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:The fantasy world, it seems to me, is one where somebody can read the previous posts and conclude that the commenters think living-wage jobs are plentiful, and everything’s fine, and wealth inequality and poverty are not major problems.
Some of you can convince yourselves that the poverty rate is only 13% and living wage jobs plentiful everything is fine and a centrist Democrat that skateboards and takes oil money or similar will get us back on track, but you are all living in a fantasy world. We are surrounded by poverty and suffering and it's all over the country, and in parts looking like a third world (https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-un-poverty-environmental-racism-743601) and so many don't have access to healthcare and the average lifespan is falling and suicide and overdoses and it's a huge mess. People are at the end of their ropes. MOL is a tiny island and one person here arguing that poverty is not a problem lives in the biggest house in my neighborhood, so maybe they are not getting the scope. I don't know but anyone who thinks wealth inequality and poverty is not a MAJOR problem in this country is delusional.
OK, well then do you agree that wealth inequality and poverty are major problems? Let's take a pole.
nan said:
OK, well then do you agree that wealth inequality and poverty are major problems? Let's take a pole.
Sorry, I don’t do polls. And I prefer keeping my opinion out of political threads.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:Sorry, I don’t do polls. And I prefer keeping my opinion out of political threads.
OK, well then do you agree that wealth inequality and poverty are major problems? Let's take a pole.
Did you notice you were on a neighborhood message board created so people could share their opinions? This is not Meet the Press.
nan said:
Did you notice you were on a neighborhood message board created so people could share their opinions? This is not Meet the Press.
Did you notice what didn’t appear on my list of reasons, when you asked just the other day, for being on MOL? This is not Force the Notion.
I can say with certainty that half of Americans live on less than the median annual US income. I would like one of the major parties to do something to fix that.
mrincredible said:
I can say with certainty that half of Americans live on less than the median annual US income. I would like one of the major parties to do something to fix that.
Can you back up this claim please? I do think we need to have a goal of 100% of Americans earning above the median income.
mrincredible said:
I can say with certainty that half of Americans live on less than the median annual US income. I would like one of the major parties to do something to fix that.
Math has an inherently liberal bias.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:Sorry, I don’t do polls. And I prefer keeping my opinion out of political threads.
OK, well then do you agree that wealth inequality and poverty are major problems? Let's take a pole.
I think Ms. Nan meant to take the Festivus Pole and air your grievances about wealth inequality and poverty.
tjohn said:
mrincredible said:Can you back up this claim please? I do think we need to have a goal of 100% of Americans earning above the median income.
I can say with certainty that half of Americans live on less than the median annual US income. I would like one of the major parties to do something to fix that.
A bunch of you sound like you agree with the Trump administration, and that includes nohero.
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/proof-poverty-in-the-u-s-is-getting-exponentially-worse/
A White House report recently proclaimed that the “War on Poverty is largely over and a success.” United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley said it was “ridiculous for the United Nations to examine poverty in America.”
Well-positioned Americans must talk like this, of course, because admitting the debilitating state of poverty inAmerica might provoke feelings of guilt for 35 years of oppressive economic policies. Wealthier people need to take an honest look at the facts. They need to face reality as it sadly exists in America today.
Any of you trying to gaslight me on the poverty in this country just sound like the people described in the last paragraph. So let's face the reality, shall we?
1 in 7 Americans is Part of the World’s Poorest 10%
According to the Credit Suisse 2018 Global Wealth Databook, 34 million American adults are among the WORLD’S POOREST 10%. How is that possible? In a word, debt. In more excruciating words: stifling, misery-inducing, deadly amounts of debt for the poorest Americans. And it goes beyond dollars to the “deaths of despair” caused by the stresses of inferior health care coverage, stagnating incomes, and out-of-control inequality.
Numerous sources report on the rising debt for the poor half of America, especially for the lowest income group, and largely because of health care and education costs. Since 2008 consumer debt has risen almost 50 percent. The percentage of families with more debt than savings is higher now than at any time since 1962.
It could be argued that Scandinavian countries face the same degrees of debt as Americans. But far less of the debt is for health and education costs. And the Scandinavian safety net is renowned for its generous provisions for all citizens.
Half of Us are In or Near Poverty
$1 in expenses twenty years ago is now $1.25. $1 in earnings twenty years ago is now still $1.
More and more Americans are facing financial difficulty. Estimates of adults living from paycheck to paycheck range from half to 60 percent to 78 percent. Any sign of a recession would be devastating for most of us.
It’s estimated that a typical U.S. household needs about $60,000 annually to meet all expenses. That’s only manageable if two adults are working full-time for $15 per hour. Beyond that, little cushion exists. No American adult in the bottom 40% has more than $31,124 in total wealth, including house and car and savings (Table 3-4).
Booming Economy, Low Unemployment, and Other Deceptions
While 1 in 7 Americans is part of the world’s poorest 10%, nearly 3 in 7 Americans are part of the world’s richest 10%. The economy is booming for THEM. Yet the Wall Street Journal has the arrogance to claim that “Americans traditionally left behind…are reaping the benefits..”
How about the “jobs for everyone” fantasy? The official unemployment rate, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) itself, is based on employees “who did any work for pay or profit during the survey reference week.” The BLS workforce includes contingent and alternative employment arrangements that make up about 10% of the workforce. It includes part-time workers (even one hour a week!), who make up about 16% of the workforce. And, inexplicably, it fails to count as unemployed those who have given up looking for work — 4% more Americans than in the year 2000.
Many of today’s ‘gig’ jobs don’t pay a living wage, and most have no retirement or health benefits, no job security, no government regulations backing them, and usually a longer work day, with many people putting in 10- to 12-hour days for $13 per hour or less. According to a New York Times report, “41.7 million laborers — nearly a third of the American work force — earn less than $12 an hour, and almost none of their employers offer health insurance.”
Safety Net Failures
While it’s true that the U.S. spends a greater percentage of its GDP on social safety net programs than developing countries, Americans generally have to face much higher costs for housing, heating, transportation, child care, and other basic expenses.
Beyond this, there are significant shortcomings in American social protections, as pointed out by the UN. These include the “shockingly high number of children living in poverty” and the “reliance on criminalization to conceal the underlying poverty problem.” Furthermore, with the call for work requirements comes the realization that the job market for the poorest Americans is “extraordinarily limited.”
Poverty: Not Just a Number
Poverty is living without health care, and choosing the life-threatening alternative of opioid painkillers. Poverty is the stress of overwhelming debt; the steady decline of jobs that pay enough to support a family; the inability to afford a move to a desired neighborhood; the deadening impact of inequality on physical and mental well-being.
The United Nations describes America as a nation near the bottom of the developed world in safety net support and economic mobility, with its citizens living “shorter and sicker lives compared to those living in all other rich democracies,” with the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world, the world’s highest incarceration rate, and the highest obesity levels. Low-income Americans are often surrounded by food deserts, with insufficient access to clean water and sanitation, and with the pollution levels of third-world countries. The poorest among us are even susceptible — unbelievably — to rare tropical diseases and once-eradicated scourges like hookworm.
The extreme levels of American poverty and inequality are ripping apart once-interdependent communities with mental health and homelessness problems, and with a surge in drug and alcohol and suicide “deaths of despair.”
Part of the definition of poverty is “the state of being inferior in quality.” As one of the most unequal nations in the entire world, America is also, in many ways, one of the most poverty-stricken
This is why people hated Obama and Hillary Clinton and voted for the fake Progressive, Trump. And if the DNC puts another establishment, neoliberal nominee in 2020 they will lose or they will be in for one term only followed by a an even worse Trump/fascist. Or, if we are lucky, they will all put on a yellow vest and riot until the government pays attention.
Meanwhile, back with the candidates--
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:I read the article and thought it was just the usual NYTs smear Bernie BS. The Bernie base is not going for anyone who does not support Medicare for All and some other things. Tulsi Gabbard is the probably the only real challenger to Bernie.
nan said:I'm just going by what 2016 Bernie supporters say in that article. You could read it, and while you're at it note what it says about Sherrod Brown also.
How is Beto a threat to Bernie? They have little if anything in common. Bernie supporters would not switch to Beto, a standard issue corporate Dem. Candidates like Beto are why people support Bernie.
Looks like some other candidate may have snagged one of Bernie's Iowa assets. "Warren has also nabbed Brendan Summers, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders' Iowa caucus director in 2016, according to a source familiar with the matter. Summers will help Warren on both Iowa and national efforts, the source said, and has already been involved in planning her visit to Iowa this weekend, when she will hold events in Council Bluffs, Sioux City, Storm Lake and Des Moines."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/politics/warren-iowa-hire-sanders/index.html
basil said:
Could this become a problem for him?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-alumni-request-meeting-to-address-sexual-violence-on-2016-campaign_us_5c2a2adae4b0407e9084c768
Don't know. Looks like a hit piece to me, and I'm sure there is more to come because the New York Times is not going to support a Progressive. He had a meeting to address this the other day--not mentioned in the article--naturally.
https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1080606280241373184
nan said:
basil said:Don't know. Looks like a hit piece to me, and I'm sure there is more to come because the New York Times is not going to support a Progressive. He had a meeting to address this the other day--not mentioned in the article--naturally.
Could this become a problem for him?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-alumni-request-meeting-to-address-sexual-violence-on-2016-campaign_us_5c2a2adae4b0407e9084c768
https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1080606280241373184
Could be a hit piece, could not be a hit piece, but as usual you seem to have made up your mind already ahead of any facts. That's the problem with absolutism.
basil said:
nan said:Could be a hit piece, could not be a hit piece, but as usual you seem to have made up your mind already ahead of any facts. That's the problem with absolutism.
basil said:Don't know. Looks like a hit piece to me, and I'm sure there is more to come because the New York Times is not going to support a Progressive. He had a meeting to address this the other day--not mentioned in the article--naturally.
Could this become a problem for him?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-alumni-request-meeting-to-address-sexual-violence-on-2016-campaign_us_5c2a2adae4b0407e9084c768
https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1080606280241373184
Totally a hit piece, just like your little nasty remark. I see what is happening with Jeremy Corbyn over in the UK and that is probably the check list for the Bernie haters.
Meanwhile, many Democrats (led by Pelosi) are getting ready to vote for PAYGO tomorrow, as another assault on Progressive legislation. When are you going to stop voting for people that don't want you to have nice things?
https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1080576585802096640
Filed under "The Democrats would rather lose to Trump than let a Progressive win" DNC strategists (Third Way) met in July to figure out how to smear Bernie and it looks like they are starting to put their plan in action.
Undaunted Democratic Centrists Ready to Fight Trump and Bernie at Same Time
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/07/democratic-centrists-ready-to-fight-trump-and-bernie.html
But in Ohio, more than 200 centrist lawmakers, operatives, and donors — including some former Hillary Clinton aides and backers — flew in from 20 of the country’s most politically relevant states to listen to a lot of speeches and panels and try to figure out how, exactly, their embattled faction could escape electoral isolation and spearhead a blue triumph in 2020. Third Way had spent the last two years conducting research and testing messages, and now — emerging from hours of strategy and policy sessions, polling-data slideshows, and Silicon Valley–style discussion about how best to influence the party’s disruptors — they were here to make clear to the insurgent progressive left that the center now intends to stand up and fight back, and that it has Sanders in its sights just as squarely as Donald Trump.
“Right now in the Democratic Party, there is only one option on the table: Sanders-style socialism. That’s the main option on the table. We’re doing this now because the party’s got to have a choice,” Jon Cowan, president of the think tank co-hosting the proceedings, with New York City real-estate executive Winston Fisher, told me. “It’s going to matter a hell of a lot in 2020, and so while 2020 may feel a ways off, in our mind it isn’t. And the ideas primary starts now. So we’re actually doing this for a very straightforward reason: to stand up and launch a serious, compelling economic alternative to Sanderism.”
So far it looks like their "serious, compelling economic alternative to Sanderism" is trying to make him look like a sexist jerk.
I agree that poverty is a huge problem in the U.S. but where do you get half the people are below the poverty level?