Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela
millions have already voted with their feet to leave a nation mired in corruption and inequality
paulsurovell said:
Not from Venezuela -- from Ukraine
You might want to check the link. Clicking on your link just took me to a general International News page from ABC.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:You might want to check the link. Clicking on your link just took me to a general International News page from ABC.
Not from Venezuela -- from Ukraine
Thanks.
I fixed the link, it's an AP story, that ABC must have run and deleted or moved to an archive.
paulsurovell said:
millions have already voted with their feet to leave a nation mired in corruption and inequalityNot from Venezuela -- from Ukraine.
Edited to fix link.
Thanks for fixing the link. That makes the game more fair because we can see more than the sentence fragment* provided:
"As Ukrainians get ready for a presidential election on Sunday, millions have already voted with their feet to leave a nation mired in corruption and inequality, a nation where the separatist war in the east has dragged on for five years, killing 13,000 people and showing no signs of ending."
Oh, definitely Ukraine, even if the word "Ukrainian" wasn't in it. There's the "election", which isn't happening in Venezuela. And the "separatist war" for 5 years "killing 13,000 people".
The rest of the article discusses even more issues. Not sure there's much of a point to that one fragment, however.
* The "sentence fragment" technique borrowed from Barr.
[Edited to fix formatting]
Speaking of Ukraine, Putin meddling:
President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia signed a decree on Wednesday simplifying the citizenship process for people in separatist-held regions of Ukraine, issuing a challenge to Ukraine’s president-elect that threatens to intensify the five-year war in the country’s east.
The decree, published on the Kremlin’s website, said that some residents in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, eastern parts of Ukraine controlled by Russia-backed rebels, could have their applications for Russian citizenship considered for acceptance within three months.
The order to simplify the citizenship process was made for the “humanitarian goals” of defending the “rights and freedoms of a person and citizen, outlined by the universally accepted principles and norms of international law,” its text said.
…
More than 13,000 people have been killed in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, which began after a revolution ousted a president friendly to the Kremlin in 2014. That year, Russian forces seized Crimea from Ukraine and began aiding rebels in eastern Ukraine with arms and military units.
Peace talks have faltered, but some hope for them had returned with the election this week of Volodymyr Zelensky, an actor whom Mr. Poroshenko criticized as being too inexperienced to confront Mr. Putin.
In a statement, Mr. Zelensky’s office said that the decree did “not bring us closer to the main goal of stopping the war” and called Russia the “aggressor state,” according to The Associated Press.
US sanctions against Venezuela are inhumane and criminal. Why are "liberals" especially those who rage about alleged foreign "meddling" in our country embracing those sanctions?
Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela
April 2019, Mark Weisbrot and Jeffrey Sachs
This paper looks at some of the most important impacts of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the US government since August of 2017. It finds that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population.
The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They exacerbated Venezuela’s economic crisis and made it nearly impossible to stabilize the economy, contributing further to excess deaths. All of these impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans.
Even more severe and destructive than the broad economic sanctions of August 2017 were the sanctions imposed by executive order on January 28, 2019 and subsequent executive orders this year; and the recognition of a parallel government, which as shown below, created a whole new set of financial and trade sanctions that are even more constricting than the executive orders themselves.
We find that the sanctions have inflicted, and increasingly inflict, very serious harm to human life and health, including an estimated more than 40,000 deaths from 2017–2018; and that these sanctions would fit the definition of collective punishment of the civilian population as described in both the Geneva and Hague international conventions, to which the US is a signatory. They are also illegal under international law and treaties which the US has signed, and would appear to violate US law as well.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Thanks for fixing the link. That makes the game more fair because we can see more than the sentence fragment* provided:
millions have already voted with their feet to leave a nation mired in corruption and inequalityNot from Venezuela -- from Ukraine.
Edited to fix link.
"As Ukrainians get ready for a presidential election on Sunday, millions have already voted with their feet to leave a nation mired in corruption and inequality, a nation where the separatist war in the east has dragged on for five years, killing 13,000 people and showing no signs of ending."
Oh, definitely Ukraine, even if the word "Ukrainian" wasn't in it. There's the "election", which isn't happening in Venezuela. And the "separatist war" for 5 years "killing 13,000 people".
The rest of the article discusses even more issues. Not sure there's much of a point to that one fragment, however.
* The "sentence fragment" technique borrowed from Barr.
[Edited to fix formatting]
So we learn that beyond Honduras, Paraguay, Mexico et al, Ukraine is also a only country from which "millions have already voted with their feet to leave" so why do "liberals" use that to justify inhumane and criminal "meddling" (sanctions) only against Venezuela?
paulsurovell said:
US sanctions against Venezuela are inhumane and criminal. Why are "liberals" especially those who rage about alleged foreign "meddling" in our country embracing those sanctions?
http://cepr.net/publications/reports/economic-sanctions-as-collective-punishment-the-case-of-venezuela
Paul, that's an opinion piece, not a study. Of course, sanctions have an economic effect. But the opinion piece just makes assumptions, ignoring all of the other contributing factors. The authors attribute harms (such as the exodus of doctors) to the sanctions when such harms have been taking place for years. Even without the sanctions, people were in need of food, medicine, and basic public services that they weren't getting.
If Maduro were a right-winger, you'd be supporting demands that he agree to new elections. Instead, you support his "standing firm", and not giving in to the "Trump Bolton Abrams Coup" (or whatever you call it). Maduro was hurting his country and his people before, with or without the sanctions.
paulsurovell said:
So we learn that beyond Honduras, Paraguay, Mexico et al, Ukraine is also a only country from which "millions have already voted with their feet to leave" so why do "liberals" use that to justify inhumane and criminal "meddling" (sanctions) only against Venezuela?
I think you need to read the article you posted. The Ukrainians who "leave" are getting visas to work in nearby countries, send back money, and often return or go back-and-forth. The article also notes the fact of Crimea occupation by Russia and Russia's support of separatists in the East. The solution is not to sanction Ukraine, but to sanction Russia.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Paul, that's an opinion piece, not a study. Of course, sanctions have an economic effect. But the opinion piece just makes assumptions, ignoring all of the other contributing factors. The authors attribute harms (such as the exodus of doctors) to the sanctions when such harms have been taking place for years. Even without the sanctions, people were in need of food, medicine, and basic public services that they weren't getting.
US sanctions against Venezuela are inhumane and criminal. Why are "liberals" especially those who rage about alleged foreign "meddling" in our country embracing those sanctions?
http://cepr.net/publications/reports/economic-sanctions-as-collective-punishment-the-case-of-venezuela
If Maduro were a right-winger, you'd be supporting demands that he agree to new elections. Instead, you support his "standing firm", and not giving in to the "Trump Bolton Abrams Coup" (or whatever you call it). Maduro was hurting his country and his people before, with or without the sanctions.
It's a summary of a study that is linked on the first two words of the post.
Here's the full study:
http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf
But it won't make any difference to you because you're on the Trump-Bolton-Pence-Abrams-Pompeo train. And you -- like them -- don't give a whit about the human impact of the sanctions.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:I think you need to read the article you posted. The Ukrainians who "leave" are getting visas to work in nearby countries, send back money, and often return or go back-and-forth. The article also notes the fact of Crimea occupation by Russia and Russia's support of separatists in the East. The solution is not to sanction Ukraine, but to sanction Russia.
So we learn that beyond Honduras, Paraguay, Mexico et al, Ukraine is also a only country from which "millions have already voted with their feet to leave" so why do "liberals" use that to justify inhumane and criminal "meddling" (sanctions) only against Venezuela?
They're leaving in the millions. Just like Venezuelans.
The President of Brazil -- the strongest supporter of Venezuelan sanctions outside of the Trump-Bolton-Pence-Abrams-Pompeo-Democratic leadership foreign "meddling" cabal.
His latest:
You left out all the other nations that support sanctions.
https://qz.com/1532754/which-countries-support-venezuelan-president-maduro-over-guaido/
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:They're leaving in the millions. Just like Venezuelans.
paulsurovell said:I think you need to read the article you posted. The Ukrainians who "leave" are getting visas to work in nearby countries, send back money, and often return or go back-and-forth. The article also notes the fact of Crimea occupation by Russia and Russia's support of separatists in the East. The solution is not to sanction Ukraine, but to sanction Russia.
So we learn that beyond Honduras, Paraguay, Mexico et al, Ukraine is also a only country from which "millions have already voted with their feet to leave" so why do "liberals" use that to justify inhumane and criminal "meddling" (sanctions) only against Venezuela?
I think you need to read the article you posted, which shows it's not "just like Venezuela".
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:It's a summary of a study that is linked on the first two words of the post.
Paul, that's an opinion piece, not a study. Of course, sanctions have an economic effect. But the opinion piece just makes assumptions, ignoring all of the other contributing factors. The authors attribute harms (such as the exodus of doctors) to the sanctions when such harms have been taking place for years. Even without the sanctions, people were in need of food, medicine, and basic public services that they weren't getting.
If Maduro were a right-winger, you'd be supporting demands that he agree to new elections. Instead, you support his "standing firm", and not giving in to the "Trump Bolton Abrams Coup" (or whatever you call it). Maduro was hurting his country and his people before, with or without the sanctions.
Here's the full study:
http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf
But it won't make any difference to you because you're on the Trump-Bolton-Pence-Abrams-Pompeo train. And you -- like them -- don't give a whit about the human impact of the sanctions.
My comment was about the http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf document linked. The example of the exodus of doctors that I mentioned is in that document, not the post from your original link. And it is not a "study", it mentions other studies and makes unsupported cause-and-effect conclusions. In particular, it ignores the significance of other, pre-existing facts which produced the situation. [Edited to add] As mentioned in my post you quoted, which I won't re-type here.
I wish the regional supporters of new elections were deferred to by the U.S. government. I wish they set up a trust fund of Venezuelan revenues to direct to humanitarian aid so that more money doesn't go into the pockets of the corrupt government officials, instead of just curtailing the industry. I wish Maduro didn't have countries such as Russia telling him to hold on (instead of telling him there's a comfortable place reserved for him where he can run away with however much he can carry, just so he goes away).
One can't "give a whit about the human impact" and at the same time denigrate the elected officials in the National Assembly who not only DO "give a whit", but actually acted in the face of massive hardship in and migration from their country.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:My comment was about the http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf document linked. The example of the exodus of doctors that I mentioned is in that document, not the post from your original link. And it is not a "study", it mentions other studies and makes unsupported cause-and-effect conclusions. In particular, it ignores the significance of other, pre-existing facts which produced the situation. [Edited to add] As mentioned in my post you quoted, which I won't re-type here.
nohero said:It's a summary of a study that is linked on the first two words of the post.
Paul, that's an opinion piece, not a study. Of course, sanctions have an economic effect. But the opinion piece just makes assumptions, ignoring all of the other contributing factors. The authors attribute harms (such as the exodus of doctors) to the sanctions when such harms have been taking place for years. Even without the sanctions, people were in need of food, medicine, and basic public services that they weren't getting.
If Maduro were a right-winger, you'd be supporting demands that he agree to new elections. Instead, you support his "standing firm", and not giving in to the "Trump Bolton Abrams Coup" (or whatever you call it). Maduro was hurting his country and his people before, with or without the sanctions.
Here's the full study:
http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf
But it won't make any difference to you because you're on the Trump-Bolton-Pence-Abrams-Pompeo train. And you -- like them -- don't give a whit about the human impact of the sanctions.
I wish the regional supporters of new elections were deferred to by the U.S. government. I wish they set up a trust fund of Venezuelan revenues to direct to humanitarian aid so that more money doesn't go into the pockets of the corrupt government officials, instead of just curtailing the industry. I wish Maduro didn't have countries such as Russia telling him to hold on (instead of telling him there's a comfortable place reserved for him where he can run away with however much he can carry, just so he goes away).
One can't "give a whit about the human impact" and at the same time denigrate the elected officials in the National Assembly who not only DO "give a whit", but actually acted in the face of massive hardship in and migration from their country.
You can't intellectualize, rationalize or obfuscate the simple fact -- you support the inhumane and criminal sanctions that are killing Venezuelans on behalf of an attempted coup d'etat by Donald Trump.
These are American heroes who are blocking Trump, Bolton et al from taking over the Venezuelan embassy in Washington DC. Has this story appeared in the mainstream media?
You may be the world’s laziest Googler.
America’s largest-circulation daily, feeding to the nation’s largest newspaper chain:
America’s largest wire service:
DaveSchmidt said:
You may be the world’s laziest Googler.
I just asked a question.
DaveSchmidt said: America’s largest-circulation daily, feeding to the nation’s largest newspaper chain:Did you stop your search at USA Today, or did you find that -- with one exception -- the story is being censored by the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC and all other organs of the mainstream media?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/24/activists-occupy-venezuelan-embassy-confrontation-over-trump-policy/3565968002/
America’s largest wire service:
https://www.apnews.com/9e9ae7888ee74c39af8b55b78ebed03
Again, just asking a question.
And wire services don't really count unless they are re-published/re-broadcast by a journal, network or cable station.
Two national MSM sources were sufficient to answer your previous question. (No, I’m not going to chase down for you how many Gannett papers or AP subscribers picked up the stories.)
If you want to criticize the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for deciding not to publish (a.k.a. censor) reports, be my guest. That’d be easier for me to ignore than your slothful questions of fact.
DaveSchmidt said:
Two national MSM sources were sufficient to answer your previous question. (No, I’m not going to chase down for you how many Gannett papers or AP subscribers picked up the stories.)
If you want to criticize the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for deciding not to publish (a.k.a. censor) reports, be my guest. That’d be easier for me to ignore than your slothful questions of fact.
That's right. And your answer is compelling evidence that NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC etc. are censoring the Venezuelan embassy story. And its pretty obvious why: because it undermines their anti-Maduro narrative, which defiles their purported missions -- "All the news that's fit to print," "Democracy dies in the darkness," "The most trusted name in news," etc.
My answer is evidence only of my habit of letting your opinions about MSM narratives stand on their own, without comment.
Message for Trump's boy Guaido from the Venezuelan embassy in DC:
DaveSchmidt said:
Two national MSM sources were sufficient to answer your previous question. (No, I’m not going to chase down for you how many Gannett papers or AP subscribers picked up the stories.)
If you want to criticize the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for deciding not to publish (a.k.a. censor) reports, be my guest. That’d be easier for me to ignore than your slothful questions of fact.
I found it on the NY Times online without much trouble. I assume that, even as a local story, the WaPo gave it some attention.
paulsurovell said:
Message for Trump's boy Guaido from the Venezuelan embassy in DC:
Yes, those five white women, holding signs in English, spending some time in a Georgetown residence will surely send a message to that Latin American "boy".
paulsurovell said:
You can't intellectualize, rationalize or obfuscate the simple fact -- you support the inhumane and criminal sanctions that are killing Venezuelans on behalf of an attempted coup d'etat by Donald Trump.nohero said:
I wish the regional supporters of new elections were deferred to by the U.S. government. I wish they set up a trust fund of Venezuelan revenues to direct to humanitarian aid so that more money doesn't go into the pockets of the corrupt government officials, instead of just curtailing the industry. I wish Maduro didn't have countries such as Russia telling him to hold on (instead of telling him there's a comfortable place reserved for him where he can run away with however much he can carry, just so he goes away).
One can't "give a whit about the human impact" and at the same time denigrate the elected officials in the National Assembly who not only DO "give a whit", but actually acted in the face of massive hardship in and migration from their country.Click to Read More
I guess you don't need me, you can just assign positions to other posters and then onanistically demonstrate your superior views.
nohero said:
DaveSchmidt said:I found it on the NY Times online without much trouble. I assume that, even as a local story, the WaPo gave it some attention.
Two national MSM sources were sufficient to answer your previous question. (No, I’m not going to chase down for you how many Gannett papers or AP subscribers picked up the stories.)
If you want to criticize the NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for deciding not to publish (a.k.a. censor) reports, be my guest. That’d be easier for me to ignore than your slothful questions of fact.
What was the search you did to find the article?
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:I guess you don't need me, you can just assign positions to other posters and then onanistically demonstrate your superior views.
You can't intellectualize, rationalize or obfuscate the simple fact -- you support the inhumane and criminal sanctions that are killing Venezuelans on behalf of an attempted coup d'etat by Donald Trump.nohero said:
I wish the regional supporters of new elections were deferred to by the U.S. government. I wish they set up a trust fund of Venezuelan revenues to direct to humanitarian aid so that more money doesn't go into the pockets of the corrupt government officials, instead of just curtailing the industry. I wish Maduro didn't have countries such as Russia telling him to hold on (instead of telling him there's a comfortable place reserved for him where he can run away with however much he can carry, just so he goes away).
One can't "give a whit about the human impact" and at the same time denigrate the elected officials in the National Assembly who not only DO "give a whit", but actually acted in the face of massive hardship in and migration from their country.Click to Read More
You can take all the space you want to explain why you don't support Trump's sanctions and attempted coup. If you're against the sanctions and Trump's attempted coup, why don't you just tell us?
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This was published shortly after Guaido declared himself president of Venezuela. The author was the National Intelligence Officer for Latin American Affairs from 2001-2004.
https://aulablog.net/2019/01/17/venezuela-is-guaido-the-knight-in-shining-armor/