Third-party voters are like anti-vaxers

They are making a selfish, individual choice and relying on the herd to protect themselves instead of contributing to the outcome for the entire country. And if a critical mass doesn't vaccinate / votes third-party, the outcome will go awry. Think before you vote third-party.

I think that's reallly mean and unfair. People have a right to vote for whomever they want. Lessor evil voting has not resulted in better candidate choice. I am terrified that Donald Trump will win, just like everyone else. I'm probably going to vote for Clinton, who I despise. But, I respect those who have a larger view and stronger backbones and will to vote for Jill Stein.

Stein herself said she thinks Cliinton is worse than Trump because she is adamant about a no-fly zone in Syria and that might well lead to war with Russia and nuclear disaster. Trump wants to be cozy with the Russians (too cozy). I think she makes a good point, although It's not like we can feel better about him dealing with other countries like Wisconsin. I'm not sure he knows that is not another country. What if he bombs New Jersey just to get rid of Chris Chistie when he's done with him?

nan said:

Stein herself said she thinks Cliinton is worse than Trump because she is adamant about a no-fly zone in Syria and that might well lead to war with Russia and nuclear disaster.

That is certainly a valid concern about HRC.

she wants a no fly zone, but I have not heard her say she wants to unilaterally impose one. If she can negotiate one she will be helping to solve problems.

That's probably going too far. I'd say third party voters are the Jill Stein of the anti-vaccination movement. Not really committed to doing harm but certainly not helping.

At the start of Yom Kippur services yesterday, we were urged to vote our values in the November presidential election. We were told that the sin of omission in abstaining from voting simply wasn't an alternative this year. No candidate was named specifically; but, it seemed pretty obvious which candidate was being supported. The message I got from the four speakers presenting this opening plea was that one should vote for one of the candidates who stood a real chance of getting elected. For me this means voting for a candidate whose name appears on the ballot in enough states with enough electoral college votes to be statistically able to win the election. It also means voting for someone with a strong enough following in those states in which the candidate is on the ballot to have a real chance of carrying enough of those states to win the election. I don't believe Stein is in a position now or will be in a position by Election Day to fit that definition. Please don't cast a protest vote either. Stakes are too high this year.

nan said:

I think that's reallly mean and unfair.

To the anti-vaxers or the third-party voters?

nan said:

People have a right to vote for whomever they want.

I'm not advocating taking away that right. I'm only pointing out the foolishness of the action. We're not picking a spouse. This is not an individual matter. It's a collective matter that will have a very real outcome for individuals, the country, and the world.

Thank god we have people that know what's best for everyone else. We truly are a herd.

Comparing third-party voters to anti-vaxers is one of the dumbest analogies I've ever heard.

Terp - where is that photo from? I'd like to turn it into an inspirational poster. Awesome.

Its a David Wojnarowicz photo. I think he was a jersey kid. It's not a live photo. I think it is a photo of a diorama.

Thanks. It's on my desk now, "Beware GroupThink"

What's wrong guys? It hurt your feelings when someone tells you you're making a poor decision?

RobB said:

What's wrong guys? It hurt your feelings when someone tells you you're making a poor decision?

Na. I just don't like to run with the crowd when they are up to no good. I love how people can be self-righteous about the fact that they are voting for someone who advocates shooting down of Russian planes.I certainly don't like being told that I am selfish when I refuse to add credibility to what I perceive as evil.

These are discussion boards, yes? Are you're feelings hurt because I've interrupted another one of your collective circle jerks? But at least we can agree I am doing "no-harm".

Is that the new Democracy? Do as you are told or your are a narcissist?

It was funny because Jill Stein isn't anti-vaccine, but thinks there are "big questions" about vaccines.

I voted for Gary "what's Aleppo" Johnson in 2012 and will again. I couldn't do that if I lived in Florida but I don't (thank Christ). As far as my feelings go, I couldn't possibly give fewer ***** than I do right now.

terp said:

Its a David Wojnarowicz photo. I think he was a jersey kid. It's not a live photo. I think it is a photo of a diorama.

In defense of the buffalo, they were driven over cliffs by hunters back in the day. They aren't lemmings.

tjohn said:

terp said:

Its a David Wojnarowicz photo. I think he was a jersey kid. It's not a live photo. I think it is a photo of a diorama.

In defense of the buffalo, they were driven over cliffs by hunters back in the day. They aren't lemmings.

In defense of lemmings, they were driven over the cliff by Disney production staff. They aren't Gary Johnson voters.

I have heard a couple of interviews with Jill Stein and with Gary Johnson, neither one impressed me. The thought of either being president would have been absurd prior to a Trump candidacy. If they faced any scrutiny it would be clear that both are woefully unprepared for the job.

nan said:

I think that's reallly mean and unfair.

That's a strange characterization of a disagreement.

Well said...

joan_crystal said:

At the start of Yom Kippur services yesterday, we were urged to vote our values in the November presidential election. We were told that the sin of omission in abstaining from voting simply wasn't an alternative this year. No candidate was named specifically; but, it seemed pretty obvious which candidate was being supported. The message I got from the four speakers presenting this opening plea was that one should vote for one of the candidates who stood a real chance of getting elected. For me this means voting for a candidate whose name appears on the ballot in enough states with enough electoral college votes to be statistically able to win the election. It also means voting for someone with a strong enough following in those states in which the candidate is on the ballot to have a real chance of carrying enough of those states to win the election. I don't believe Stein is in a position now or will be in a position by Election Day to fit that definition. Please don't cast a protest vote either. Stakes are too high this year.

It seems that protest votes are attempts to be heard as individuals. That makes plenty of sense to me. The impulse to have your own voice only makes sense. But voting is a collective act, made more so when the number of voters is huge. Votes for 3rd party candidates end up as a number, such as 7% of the popular vote. At that point, what is the message, and who will receive it seriously?

Furthermore 7% of the popular vote amounts to 0% of the electoral vote. The electoral system is infuriating, which makes it a bad mouthpiece for protest votes.

You can look at it the other way. If my vote actually mattered, I'd have no choice but to vote for HRC. It's a no-brainer. Living in one of the states guaranteed to go one way or the other gives you an opportunity to make a little noise.

I would argue that voting third-party (or fourth party) is the self-righteous action. The voter is doing it to demonstrate moral superiority, not to get that candidate into the White House. Either DJT or HRC will be our next president. If you don't vote for one of them, you are letting other people decide for you.

RobB said:

You can look at it the other way. If my vote actually mattered, I'd have no choice but to vote for HRC. It's a no-brainer. Living in one of the states guaranteed to go one way or the other gives you an opportunity to make a little noise.

Except nobody will hear it. Nobody cares. And you are proving my point. You are relying on the herd to protect you. If there were a low vaccination rate around here, you'd have no choice but to get vaccinated.

No little kids with leukemia are going to get whooping cough if I vote for Gary Johnson.

If I vote for Jill Stein, on the other hand - no promises.

The real question is how does this affect down ticket races. If a Republican votes third party, they are likely still voting Republican on the rest of the ticket. I assume the same of Democrats. I'd prefer that Republicans stay home.

RobB said:

No little kids with leukemia are going to get whooping cough if I vote for Gary Johnson.

If I vote for Jill Stein, on the other hand - no promises.

To play out the analogy, the consequence could be that your non-preferred candidate could win. See: Florida, 2000.

shoshannah said:

RobB said:
No little kids with leukemia are going to get whooping cough if I vote for Gary Johnson.

If I vote for Jill Stein, on the other hand - no promises.

To play out the analogy, the consequence could be that your non-preferred candidate could win. See: Florida, 2000.

Again, I don't live in Florida. Hillary will carry Massachusetts by 20 points.

As far as downticket races go, I'll vote straight D for Congressional races and straight R (or Communist, if no R is available) at the state level.

Shoshannah,

What would you say to a conservative who considers Trump to be a menace to decency but who disagrees with every single policy that Hillary Clinton espouses (and finds liberals to be condescending to boot)?

What if someone is a laissez-faire extremist and hates all government regulation of the economy and personal lives?

What would you say to someone who seeks a total reorganization of the American economy and foreign policy and sees Hillary as another Wall Street, pro-war president?

Would you admit any personal circumstance when it makes sense to vote for a third party candidate, like McMullin, Johnson, or Stein?