Officer Byrd and Ashli Babbitt

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only sane person around.

I've been bothered by the Babbitt shooting since the get go, and got more bothered as I repeatedly watched the videos of the shooting. The few times I have tried to engage on the subject (not here) I feel like I've descended into a liberal version of MAGA-land.

But after Byrd's interview where he claimed to have saved "countless lives", and having yet to see any push back on that ridiculous statement, I've determined that the entire liberal world has lost their mind. 

drummerboy said:

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only sane person around.

I've been bothered by the Babbitt shooting since the get go, and got more bothered as I repeatedly watched the videos of the shooting. The few times I have tried to engage on the subject (not here) I feel like I've descended into a liberal version of MAGA-land.

But after Byrd's interview where he claimed to have saved "countless lives", and having yet to see any push back on that ridiculous statement, I've determined that the entire liberal world has lost their mind. 

 Tucker Carlson said last night that Babbitt was executed by Byrd 3 times on his show.

Let me rephrase that. 3 times on last night's show, Carlson said Byrd executed Babbitt.

ridski said:

 Tucker Carlson said last night that Babbitt was executed by Byrd 3 times on his show.

Let me rephrase that. 3 times on last night's show, Carlson said Byrd executed Babbitt.

Tucker and the rest of them want their viewers to think that it happened like this.

ridski said:

drummerboy said:

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only sane person around.

I've been bothered by the Babbitt shooting since the get go, and got more bothered as I repeatedly watched the videos of the shooting. The few times I have tried to engage on the subject (not here) I feel like I've descended into a liberal version of MAGA-land.

But after Byrd's interview where he claimed to have saved "countless lives", and having yet to see any push back on that ridiculous statement, I've determined that the entire liberal world has lost their mind. 

 Tucker Carlson said last night that Babbitt was executed by Byrd 3 times on his show.

Let me rephrase that. 3 times on last night's show, Carlson said Byrd executed Babbitt.

your point is what? Because Carlson is demagoging (sp?) the issue I have to deny what my eyes and ears tell me? At best, her death was questionable. At best.

drummerboy said:

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only sane person around.

I've been bothered by the Babbitt shooting since the get go, and got more bothered as I repeatedly watched the videos of the shooting. The few times I have tried to engage on the subject (not here) I feel like I've descended into a liberal version of MAGA-land.

But after Byrd's interview where he claimed to have saved "countless lives", and having yet to see any push back on that ridiculous statement, I've determined that the entire liberal world has lost their mind. 

She was the leading edge of an invading army.  They were going after Members of Congress.  They beat law enforcement officers with poles; they sprayed bear spray.  These were not tourists looking to visit the seat of democracy.  Think of her as the first drop of water breaking through a dam.

I think it was justifiable use of force. Cops were crazy outnumbered. All kinds of psychos on the grounds, some of whom were armed with who knows what. Utter chaos. Serious, serious ramifications if someone got to our elected officials. And this batbleep-crazy woman is climbing through a broken window to get into the chamber? 

I don’t know that she personally had malicious intent to harm anyone, but there are risks associated with committing criminally reckless acts. Cops carry and are authorized to use deadly force for a reason. 

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this but at the time I was surprised that more of the rioters were not shot. 

drummerboy said:

your point is what? Because Carlson is demagoging (sp?) the issue I have to deny what my eyes and ears tell me? At best, her death was questionable. At best.

 My point being that the right is calling this an execution.

Echoed by Rep. Paul Gosar. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/16/paul-gosar-capitol-riot-babbitt/

You see that thing where I said Carlson is calling it an "execution" over and over? That's my point right there. They're saying she was executed. They're not saying it was justifiable, or questionable. They're saying she was executed. Downright executed.

Executed. 

That's my point.

This is a short piece which has diagrams of the scene, descriptions of what's on relevant videos, and a video compiled from different views when the incident took place.

It looks like a violent mob (which had reached that point by beating officers) trying to break down the last door between them and the members of Congress and guests.

Video shows fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol - The Washington Post

STANV said:

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this but at the time I was surprised that more of the rioters were not shot. 

Exactly.

drummerboy said:

your point is what? Because Carlson is demagoging (sp?) the issue I have to deny what my eyes and ears tell me? At best, her death was questionable. At best.

 What are you seeing and hearing? I admit I haven't watched the video or otherwise looked at the incident in any detail, so I'm asking from genuine curiosity, not as any kind of challenge.

ridski said:

drummerboy said:

your point is what? Because Carlson is demagoging (sp?) the issue I have to deny what my eyes and ears tell me? At best, her death was questionable. At best.

 My point being that the right is calling this an execution.

Echoed by Rep. Paul Gosar. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/16/paul-gosar-capitol-riot-babbitt/

You see that thing where I said Carlson is calling it an "execution" over and over? That's my point right there. They're saying she was executed. They're not saying it was justifiable, or questionable. They're saying she was executed. Downright executed.

Executed. 

That's my point.

 I don't care what they say. Why should I?

nohero said:

This is a short piece which has diagrams of the scene, descriptions of what's on relevant videos, and a video compiled from different views when the incident took place.

It looks like a violent mob (which had reached that point by beating officers) trying to break down the last door between them and the members of Congress and guests.

Video shows fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol - The Washington Post

STANV said:

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this but at the time I was surprised that more of the rioters were not shot. 

Exactly.

That's part of my argument, actually. The mere fact that she was the only one shot raises questions about whether she should have been.

I am convinced that if there was a similar scenario, but liberals' sympathies lay with the mob, they'd be screaming about an unjustified killing. Just as they justifiably do with other cop killings.

Trying to climb through a broken window is not a capital offense.

the law is that a police officer in that circumstance was justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believed the crowd at the door posed a threat of bodily injury or death to himself or others around him.

Babbitt herself may have been unarmed and not intending to harm anyone, but it seems reasonable to me that the mob she was at the head of certainly had serious bodily injury on their minds (if not worse).

It's a shame that anyone was killed, but it's hard for me, with the benefit of hindsight to say the officer didn't have a reasonable concern for his own and others' physical safety.

PVW said:

drummerboy said:

your point is what? Because Carlson is demagoging (sp?) the issue I have to deny what my eyes and ears tell me? At best, her death was questionable. At best.

 What are you seeing and hearing? I admit I haven't watched the video or otherwise looked at the incident in any detail, so I'm asking from genuine curiosity, not as any kind of challenge.

I just don't think that she posed the kind of threat that required deadly force. She was on a landing where a small mob had gathered, where a couple of guys were trying to break the windows on the separating doors, which were locked. There were actually at least two cops on the landing, who basically did nothing.  At some point, it looks like one of the the windows broke through, and Babbitt appeared to make a move towards it. (People say she was already climbing through the window when she was shot, but it doesn't look that way to me.) At that point, Byrd, who was kind of off to the side - in the video, all you can see is his hand and his gun - shot her. Literally within seconds, a tactical team showed up, and the mob broke up.

I don't know if the cops (or whatever they were) on the landing, inside the doors, were armed.

At the very least, Byrd should have fired warning shots to show he meant business.

I realize it was a very hectic and tense couple of minutes, but I think Byrd panicked. And his claim to have saved "countless lives" is the baldest of rationalizations.

Here's a couple of videos, two angles. The WAPO one is the best, but I can't seem to find another site that has it, so you might get paywalled.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/01/08/ashli-babbitt-shooting-video-capitol/

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/capitol-shooting-that-led-to-ashli-babbitt-s-death-captured-on-video-99180613572

drummerboy said:

nohero said:

This is a short piece which has diagrams of the scene, descriptions of what's on relevant videos, and a video compiled from different views when the incident took place.

It looks like a violent mob (which had reached that point by beating officers) trying to break down the last door between them and the members of Congress and guests.

Video shows fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol - The Washington Post

STANV said:

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this but at the time I was surprised that more of the rioters were not shot. 

Exactly.

That's part of my argument, actually. The mere fact that she was the only one shot raises questions about whether she should have been.

I am convinced that if there was a similar scenario, but liberals' sympathies lay with the mob, they'd be screaming about an unjustified killing. Just as they justifiably do with other cop killings.

Trying to climb through a broken window is not a capital offense.

 So your argument is that the fact of only one shot doesn't show restraint, but it shows reckless use of force? I don't buy that.

Analogizing to "other cop killings" is buying into the MAGA narrative, since it's most definitely not like those "other cop killings". 

And based on your comment about the circumstances, you don't seem to have read the article, with the diagram and the video, which I provided.

If she was allowed to get through that glass, the other lunatics behind her would have piled in. The door was barricaded with furniture because members of Congress were in that room. The police officer had a small open hole which her torso was framed in, and he fired. He couldn’t aim for her legs. 
If he hadn’t shot her he would have had to shoot many more who would have followed her. The whole thing is a senseless loss of life… including the officers that died that day. It immediately stopped people from jumping in the window. That’s the objective. Stop them by any means necessary. 

Jaytee said:

If she was allowed to get through that glass, the other lunatics behind her would have piled in. The door was barricaded with furniture because members of Congress were in that room. The police officer had a small open hole which her torso was framed in, and he fired. He couldn’t aim for her legs. 
If he hadn’t shot her he would have had to shoot many more who would have followed her. The whole thing is a senseless loss of life… including the officers that died that day. It immediately stopped people from jumping in the window. That’s the objective. Stop them by any means necessary. 

As it happens, that's largely incorrect. As I stated, a tactical force team arrived within a few seconds of her being shot and the mob dispersed. Granted, her getting shot probably factored into them disbursing too, but I'm sure the heavily armed SWAT team helped an awful lot.

It would be interesting to know if Byrd knew if the SWAT team was on the way.

nohero said:

drummerboy said:

nohero said:

This is a short piece which has diagrams of the scene, descriptions of what's on relevant videos, and a video compiled from different views when the incident took place.

It looks like a violent mob (which had reached that point by beating officers) trying to break down the last door between them and the members of Congress and guests.

Video shows fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol - The Washington Post

STANV said:

I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this but at the time I was surprised that more of the rioters were not shot. 

Exactly.

That's part of my argument, actually. The mere fact that she was the only one shot raises questions about whether she should have been.

I am convinced that if there was a similar scenario, but liberals' sympathies lay with the mob, they'd be screaming about an unjustified killing. Just as they justifiably do with other cop killings.

Trying to climb through a broken window is not a capital offense.

 So your argument is that the fact of only one shot doesn't show restraint, but it shows reckless use of force? I don't buy that.

Analogizing to "other cop killings" is buying into the MAGA narrative, since it's most definitely not like those "other cop killings". 

And based on your comment about the circumstances, you don't seem to have read the article, with the diagram and the video, which I provided.

 I read the article. What do you think is in there that I missed?

and hell, if he was going to shoot someone, why didn't he shoot the a$$holes that were trying to break down the door? Instead, he waited for them to break through, and then shot some random woman?

Maybe it was technically within the law. But this is not a case of good police work.

also, with due respect to WAPO, are you telling me the shot below shows Babbitt trying to get through the window? (read the caption) All I see is her hat.

drummerboy said:

I just don't think that she posed the kind of threat that required deadly force. She was on a landing where a small mob had gathered, where a couple of guys were trying to break the windows on the separating doors, which were locked. There were actually at least two cops on the landing, who basically did nothing.  At some point, it looks like one of the the windows broke through, and Babbitt appeared to make a move towards it. (People say she was already climbing through the window when she was shot, but it doesn't look that way to me.) At that point, Byrd, who was kind of off to the side - in the video, all you can see is his hand and his gun - shot her. Literally within seconds, a tactical team showed up, and the mob broke up.

I don't know if the cops (or whatever they were) on the landing, inside the doors, were armed.

At the very least, Byrd should have fired warning shots to show he meant business.

I realize it was a very hectic and tense couple of minutes, but I think Byrd panicked. And his claim to have saved "countless lives" is the baldest of rationalizations.

Here's a couple of videos, two angles. The WAPO one is the best, but I can't seem to find another site that has it, so you might get paywalled.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2021/01/08/ashli-babbitt-shooting-video-capitol/

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/capitol-shooting-that-led-to-ashli-babbitt-s-death-captured-on-video-99180613572

 Thanks for the links. And no worries on the paywall -- WaPo is one of the news sources I pay for.

What i saw in the video is a Byrd's gun out and clearly visible on the other side of the door and people bashing the windows on the near side of the door. It looked to me that despite the visible presence of the gun, people were still trying to force their way in. If I were on a jury, I'd likely find the shooting justified.

That said, I appreciate your raising an alternative point of view on this. I think there are far too many guns in this country, including among the police, and I don't think anyone, not even (especially?) the police should get the benefit of the doubt in a shooting as the default position. From what I've seen, I still think this particular shooting was justified, but it's definitely legitimate and important to ask the questions.

drummerboy said:

also, with due respect to WAPO, are you telling me the shot below shows Babbitt trying to get through the window? (read the caption) All I see is her hat.

28:30: https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html

If you start around 27:15, you'll see and hear more context, including: "When a team of heavily armed police now arrives, the three officers [who had been standing in front of the door, guns holstered] step aside." They, at least, knew SWAT was coming. But that allows the rioters to surge forward, and Babbitt "vaults into the window."

Also, watching the video and reading the article, what a stupid deadly thing Trumpism is.

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

also, with due respect to WAPO, are you telling me the shot below shows Babbitt trying to get through the window? (read the caption) All I see is her hat.

28:30: https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html

If you start around 27:15, you'll see and hear more context, including: "When a team of heavily armed police now arrives, the three officers [who had been standing in front of the door, guns holstered] step aside." They, at least, knew SWAT was coming. But that allows the rioters to surge forward, and Babbitt "vaults into the window."

That's quite a different view than the other videos I'd seen. Yes, she was clearly going through the window at that point.

Was Babbitt armed?  How would Byrd or other officers have known if the invaders had sidearms?  I put 90% of Babbitt's death on Trump and his goons.  The rest on Babbitt.

dave said:

Was Babbitt armed?  How would Byrd or other officers have known if the invaders had sidearms?  ...

yeah, no argument there. But you can't shoot people because you think they might be armed.

drummerboy said:

dave said:

Was Babbitt armed?  How would Byrd or other officers have known if the invaders had sidearms?  ...

yeah, no argument there. But you can't shoot people because you think they might be armed.

If a mob of people are trying to break into your house to do who knows what, and you have a weapon that would stop them, would you use it or would you wait to see if they had firearms, too?

I wonder if things would have gone better, or worse, if the SWAT team had arrived earlier. Would the crowd have dispersed, or would more people have been shot? The energy of the mob in those clips is pretty intense; I'm not 100% sure the mere presence of heavily armed police would have been enough to break the momentum. But then I wonder, would a warning shot, as DB suggested, have done it? Once Babbitt is down you can see the crowd shift from a mob back into individuals as some go in and try to assist her. That's the trick with a mob it seems -- force that transition -- but was there a way short of actually shooting someone to accomplish that here?

Steve said:

drummerboy said:

dave said:

Was Babbitt armed?  How would Byrd or other officers have known if the invaders had sidearms?  ...

yeah, no argument there. But you can't shoot people because you think they might be armed.

If a mob of people are trying to break into your house to do who knows what, and you have a weapon that would stop them, would you use it or would you wait to see if they had firearms, too?

 good point

I am loathe to link to The Hill, much less Jonathan Turley, but he kind of makes some sense here

https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/569827-justified-shooting-or-fair-game-shooter-of-ashlii-babbitt-makes-shocking?rl=1