A question for theists

drummerboy said:

What is God and why do you believe it/him/her/they exists?


Took me a long time to come up with that.

It only took me about ten years while in Catholic school…and I never really got an answer from any of the priests or nuns. Punishment for questioning this was writing pages from the Bible until my middle finger hurt. 
I cannot imagine a loving father sitting on a throne, with a humongous book in front of him jotting down our names and shortcomings… and why would this loving father just let loose animals on this planet so they can rip each other apart when hungry. And the thought of him keeping a torture chamber with an eternal supply of natural gas to burn the wicked souls for eternity…makes me wonder just how crazy and sadistic the whole thing is. 
I use the analogy of electricity… we must have a negative wire and a positive wire to actually put the light on. We’re all searching for the switch, because we’re all out of touch with the universe… the animals already have the switch built in. We are lost on this here ball.

Jaytee said:

It only took me about ten years while in Catholic school…and I never really got an answer from any of the priests or nuns. Punishment for questioning this was writing pages from the Bible until my middle finger hurt. 
I cannot imagine a loving father sitting on a throne, with a humongous book in front of him jotting down our names and shortcomings… and why would this loving father just let loose animals on this planet so they can rip each other apart when hungry. And the thought of him keeping a torture chamber with an eternal supply of natural gas to burn the wicked souls for eternity…makes me wonder just how crazy and sadistic the whole thing is. 
I use the analogy of electricity… we must have a negative wire and a positive wire to actually put the light on. We’re all searching for the switch, because we’re all out of touch with the universe… the animals already have the switch built in. We are lost on this here ba

My breaking point, after being a very religious child was about the same point, freshman year in high school when I questioned what the Church did to help during the Holocaust, and what it was doing during the civil rights movement.

When I told my mother I no longer wanted to attend Church and gave my reasons. she understood, agreed I could skip Mass but I couldn't switch to public school. She felt that school offered a better education. It was a miserable four years. No rulers but they insisted I cut my hair. A declaration of war.

A continuing enigma for me is why an omniscient, perfect god would create imperfect beings and then angrily punish them for their failures or lack of faith in it/him/her.  It reeks of vanity and insecurity - human imperfections.

I was raised Catholic.  My mother converted to Catholicism in order to marry my Dad in the church. She enforced church attendance for many years, probably a bit out of resentment at being forced to convert when my father was not particularly devout. I received Communion and was confirmed. I was an altar boy for a year or so. I got two Catholic "medals" from the Boys Scouts. After Confirmation my mother stopped the enforcement and I stopped the attendance. Mom eventually divorced my Dad and remarried a secular Jewish man.

I agree with all of the points made by others above and believe that religion is merely a crutch for those who need something to cling to in order to explain the many horrors in the world in which we live and to help cope when events are beyond our control. 

"Jesus take the Wheel," and all. All horseshit.

I still find myself "praying" on occasion when circumstance are beyond my control and have high stakes - particularly when it comes to issues with friends and family.  

Old habits die hard, I guess.
  

I am sure something exists.  The key question for me is what is that something?  An additional question I grapple with, to use modern terms, is to what extent is this something interactive?  

joan_crystal said:

I am sure something exists.  The key question for me is what is that something?  An additional question I grapple with, to use modern terms, is to what extent is this something interactive?  

Yes, it is difficult to accept/understand how we just "appeared" here without some sore of intelligent creator.

I wouldn't call myself a theist, but I also don't feel the atheist label fits well either. Like many here, I can't really accept the idea of an all-powerful being that allows at best, and actively doles out at worst, pain and suffering (the topic of theodicy in theological terms) -- and certainly not the idea of eternal torment (the problem of hell). For me, the solution is to drop the idea of god being all-powerful. Maybe for some people that's not a god at all, but then that becomes more about their definitions than mine.

I grew up Catholic, and while I don't accept the gospels as being literally true, the idea of a being of ultimate power giving that power up to suffer and die alongside humanity is, I find, a powerful and moving story. Its in that solidarity with humanity -- with the whole mortal world, actually -- that I find godliness.

God, for me, is the one that bears witness. Everything in the universe, and even the universe itself, will end. If there's any meaning to the universe, then that meaning must lie in these brief mortal moments, and their being observed and remembered. Our friends and family live in our interactions with them, and those who have passed continue to exist in our memories of them. When we are all gone, when everything is gone, god is that which remembers all of it.

It's a very existential view of "god" I suppose, but ultimately just an attempt at a less sappy version of "god is love" I think.

I’m agnostic.

I do believe that organized religion has done immeasurable harm during the history of mankind. However, I have no issue with individuals who are religious, spiritual, faithful, and so on.

Maybe God is whatever the individual believes it is. 

jimmurphy said:

I agree with all of the points made by others above and believe that religion is merely a crutch for those who need something to cling to in order to explain the many horrors in the world in which we live and to help cope when events are beyond our control.

“Crutch” is a loaded term: It can be a useful implement that does someone a world of good, or it can be a reflexive fallback. Either way, it suggests a lack of something.

The God believers I know best have given me a more affirmative outlook: I admire faith and imagination. I admire humility and grace. If religion is how an individual puts them all together, without harm to others, it doesn’t dim my admiration.

DaveSchmidt said:

“Crutch” is a loaded term: It can be a useful implement that does someone a world of good, or it can be a reflexive fallback. Either way, it suggests a lack of something.

The God believers I know best have given me a more affirmative outlook: I admire faith and imagination. I admire humility and grace. If religion is how an individual puts them all together, without harm to others, it doesn’t dim my admiration.

You are right.  Insensitive of me.  I'm sorry.

I often describe religion as a hobby, like scrapbooking or stamp collecting or reading novels. This doesn't trivialize religion so much as show that it's a choice that many make but there's no reason to give, say, tax breaks and political power to something like scrapbooking. You like religion, I like collecting third-world music CDs. I don't tell people that they can't have an abortion because I happen to like Mighty Sparrow. (You should like Sparrow, too.) 

The_Soulful_Mr_T said:

I often describe religion as a hobby, like scrapbooking or stamp collecting or reading novels. This doesn't trivialize religion so much as show that it's a choice that many make but there's no reason to give, say, tax breaks and political power to something like scrapbooking. You like religion, I like collecting third-world music CDs. I don't tell people that they can't have an abortion because I happen to like Mighty Sparrow. (You should like Sparrow, too.) 

Some of us like salt fish… 

drummerboy said:

What is God and why do you believe it/him/her/they exists?


Took me a long time to come up with that.

Would probably take longer for an answer. I'll confess that belief in God was a given in my family growing up. As years went by, it still makes sense to me. As this thread shows, others' experiences can be different. I know/have known people who "went the other way", deciding that belief in God made sense to them even if that wasn't how they grew up. 

Defining God is difficult, and it's usually by partial descriptions ("I Am Who Am" in Exodus doesn't provide much detail, for example). One starting point is to say that God is the source of everything we see and know, but how that comes about isn't easily explained, either. Figuring that out or explaining that is what Theology is.

Of course this isn't much of a response, but any response (imho) would just be the start of a description, not a conclusive one.

jimmurphy said:

I was raised Catholic.  My mother converted to Catholicism in order to marry my Dad in the church. She enforced church attendance for many years, probably a bit out of resentment at being forced to convert when my father was not particularly devout. 

My story exactly ... it ends slightly differently in that after we were all grown my mom started attending Methodist services. My dad eventually came with her and he really liked the pastor so he went there for a while, then for various reasons they both gave it up,

PVW's post also resonates with me:

I grew up Catholic, and while I don't accept the gospels as being literally true, the idea of a being of ultimate power giving that power up to suffer and die alongside humanity is, I find, a powerful and moving story. Its in that solidarity with humanity -- with the whole mortal world, actually -- that I find godliness.

I also find this story very moving and wish I could believe it to be true. But I can't.  

Not just about a deity, I think the idea of an afterlife is silly / wishful thinking. What we've got here is all there is so we should do the best we can with it. Heaven is what we have here on this beautiful, flawed planet and it is all around us when we take time to look. Not just "the beauty of nature" and that kind of thing, but I mean ALL of it. Like a cup of coffee, a hug, a joke, my dog's butt when he's happy, gabbing with friends, music. 

Not really theist,  but there is one thing I firmly believe in despite all evidence- the innate goodness of all people. it can be very hard to sustain that belief on a day to day basis but without it I am not sure I could face the world.

The_Soulful_Mr_T said:

I often describe religion as a hobby, like scrapbooking or stamp collecting or reading novels. This doesn't trivialize religion so much as show that it's a choice that many make but there's no reason to give, say, tax breaks and political power to something like scrapbooking. You like religion, I like collecting third-world music CDs. I don't tell people that they can't have an abortion because I happen to like Mighty Sparrow. (You should like Sparrow, too.) 

my vote for best post in this thread

HatsOff said:

What we've got here is all there is so we should do the best we can with it. Heaven is what we have here on this beautiful, flawed planet and it is all around us when we take time to look. Not just "the beauty of nature" and that kind of thing, but I mean ALL of it. Like a cup of coffee, a hug, a joke, my dog's butt when he's happy, gabbing with friends, music. 

Not really theist, but there is one thing I firmly believe in despite all evidence- the innate goodness of all people. it can be very hard to sustain that belief on a day to day basis but without it I am not sure I could face the world.

If this is religion, and it includes respecting and loving all people, no matter what, count me in. 

Sorry this looks long. 
Born into a family of Holocaust survivors with shocking back stories of having to invent second personhoods/identities, hiding, concentration camps and emigration to the furthest point of the globe where they could try to escape the ever-present horrors….  My parents were low-key Conservative Jewish.  (As a lot of you know)  

They believed we should all be helpful to others, respectful, kind; remember where we came from (the whole family history) and that we should learn something new every day.  They sent me to a Methodist school for 13 years, and an ultra orthodox Jewish college (after school, 3 x each week) to learn Hebrew, ancient Hebrew, history, traditions, philosophy, Jewish civil law, etc. 
Pretty balanced, eh? I had to attend the Methodist religious studies, and church services too.  I was always stunned at the mistranslations of Jewish holy books that Christianity relied on, and the stubborn misunderstanding of Jewish customs.   And then I got an Honours degree in Philosophy…

The thing that was stressed by my rabbinic teachers is that ‘Gd’ is that name we give to what we don’t yet know or understand.  Like: what was the Big Bang, if there was nothing before?? Where did those elements come from, to bump into each other (how did they do that??) then explode?  And how did matter, and life come from that?  I.e. Gd as First Cause, out of necessity. 
Mum taught me that belief in Gd is like looking at a sparkling diamond:  there’s always more to see, and all beliefs are delicate carvings on each facet.  Just another way to understand what we don’t yet know. 

I also believe in guardian angels. 

HatsOff said:

I also find this story very moving and wish I could believe it to be true. But I can't.  

Not just about a deity, I think the idea of an afterlife is silly / wishful thinking. What we've got here is all there is so we should do the best we can with it. Heaven is what we have here on this beautiful, flawed planet and it is all around us when we take time to look. Not just "the beauty of nature" and that kind of thing, but I mean ALL of it. Like a cup of coffee, a hug, a joke, my dog's butt when he's happy, gabbing with friends, music. 

Not really theist,  but there is one thing I firmly believe in despite all evidence- the innate goodness of all people. it can be very hard to sustain that belief on a day to day basis but without it I am not sure I could face the world.

In my tradition, afterlife is the way in which we live on in the memories of those who knew us when we were alive.  

I'll respond to some of these posts later, but for now here's my little bio:

I grew up catholic. went to church regularly. got let out of school every Wednesday afternoon for catechism class.(did everyone call it relig?) was communionized. confirmationized. I attended public school but every other kid in my neighborhood went to catholic school*. and then, at around 7th grade, I just decided that believing in god didn't make much sense. I couldn't justify it to myself. So that was the end of that and the start of this.

*interesting thing about this. I had never quite understood why no one was going to the local public elementary, which was just a couple of minutes away by walking. the families were no more religious than mine, we were all working class. anyway, I only figured it out like 20 years ago. they almost certainly avoided public school because my hometown, New Rochelle, NY had been recently ordered to desegregate its schools as a result of losing this case:

Taylor v. Board of Education of City School District of New Rochelle, 195 F. Supp. 231 (S.D.N.Y. 1961), was a decision by the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, which ruled that the Board of Education in New Rochelle, NY had created a segregated school system through racially discriminatory policies that confined all black children to Lincoln School, while allowing white families to transfer their children to all-white schools. Considered the first school segregation case in the north, the ruling was appealed to the Supreme Court where it was upheld, leading to the razing of Lincoln School and the institution of city-wide busing for elementary school students to ensure racial diversity across the district.

DaveSchmidt said:

“Crutch” is a loaded term: It can be a useful implement that does someone a world of good, or it can be a reflexive fallback. Either way, it suggests a lack of something.

The God believers I know best have given me a more affirmative outlook: I admire faith and imagination. I admire humility and grace. If religion is how an individual puts them all together, without harm to others, it doesn’t dim my admiration.

there is nothing that religion provides that can't be provided as well or better than other institutions or world views could, without the downside of having to partition part of your brain into believing something for little or no valid reasons. to say nothing of avoiding the intolerance that religion tends to breed. to say nothing of the fact that the very act of worship based on faith is a step towards an authoritarian mind set. the political bent of the most orthodox of theists is not a coincidence.

all in all, it's a net negative.

and this was an interesting phrase : "I admire faith and imagination." To me, these two things are opposites. Is that what you meant? Probably not. Imagination is when you set your mind free. Faith is when you shut down your mind and give in. And what is there to admire in the act of religious faith?

This brings to mind what William Craig (famous Christian apologist, for those out of that loop) said a couple of years ago, where he basically said "stop thinking and just believe". Which at least was more honest than most of what he says. The exact quote was "Far from raising the bar or the epistemic standard that Christianity must meet to be believed, I lower it"

You can see the full context in this video:

drummerboy said:

there is nothing that religion provides that can't be provided as well or better than other institutions or world views could, without the downside of having to partition part of your brain into believing something for little or no valid reasons. to say nothing of avoiding the intolerance that religion tends to breed. to say nothing of the fact that the very act of worship based on faith is a step towards an authoritarian mind set. the political bent of the most orthodox of theists is not a coincidence.

PVW said:

drummerboy said:

there is nothing that religion provides that can't be provided as well or better than other institutions or world views could, without the downside of having to partition part of your brain into believing something for little or no valid reasons. to say nothing of avoiding the intolerance that religion tends to breed. to say nothing of the fact that the very act of worship based on faith is a step towards an authoritarian mind set. the political bent of the most orthodox of theists is not a coincidence.

I think that's a pretty US-centric perspective, and present-day focused as well. The MAGA base is heavily self-identified as religious, but it's also overwhelmingly white people freaking out over losing their presumption to cultural and political supremacy. One might argue that this indicates a profound moral failure of Christianity (I'd agree), but your argument seems to be that Christianity caused this, which I don't agree with. After all, throughout American history, the fight against authoritarianism was often very strongly rooted in profoundly religious communities, and if you watch who's out there on the front lines today fighting the good fight there are plenty of religious people there.

Religion is a cultural expression. In societies that are religious, you'll find authoritarians who speak in religious terms. In societies that are secular, you'll find authoritarians who speak in secular terms. It's a mistake, I think to approach religion as an explicitly-bought into set of beliefs because most people just practice whatever they were born into. If being religious really lead to authoritarianism, Christianity should be a pretty poor vehicle for it since it's founded around someone who literally chose to die rather than exercise his inherent power to rule. 

no. I am not in any way saying that "Christianity caused this". Not even close. I'm talking about personality types. The authoritarian personality type is strongly related to religious faith. It's pretty well documented. Which is why I said "authoritarian mind set".

Tangent question - If there was God, how do we know that he still exist and did not die? Or that maybe he was replaced by a different god who plays Seduku all day and doesn't' give a hoot what happens here on Erf?

I wonder what an individual would believe if they were not introduced into an organized religion. 

Women in particular, how would they answer the question if they had not been raised in a patriarchal faith?

It can be difficult for a woman to envision herself achieving power, if she believes, according to her faith that she is less than a man.

It/he/she/they might exist.  Did you ever get like 4 green lights in a row?  How about no traffic at one of the tunnels?

Morganna said:

I wonder what an individual would believe if they were not introduced into an organized religion. 

Women in particular, how would they answer the question if they had not been raised in a patriarchal faith?

It can be difficult for a woman to envision herself achieving power, if she believes, according to her faith that she is less than a man.

Have you seen that movie called “the gods must be crazy” ? That might answer your first question. I’m thinking paganism pre dated organized religion, yet women are still punished for practicing it. How many women can relate with Mary Magdalene? Even though there’s nothing in the bible describing her as a prostitute, people still believe she was. But somehow she was possessed by demons…

upthecreek said:

It/he/she/they might exist.  Did you ever get like 4 green lights in a row?  How about no traffic at one of the tunnels?

the devil made me forget my paddle…

Jaytee said:

Have you seen that movie called “the gods must be crazy” ? That might answer your first question. I’m thinking paganism pre dated organized religion, yet women are still punished for practicing it. How many women can relate with Mary Magdalene? Even though there’s nothing in the bible describing her as a prostitute, people still believe she was. But somehow she was possessed by demons…

That one takes me back to "Mondo Carne". To go back to "The Gods...." You gotta be pretty old.

Morganna said:

I wonder what an individual would believe if they were not introduced into an organized religion. 

Women in particular, how would they answer the question if they had not been raised in a patriarchal faith?

It can be difficult for a woman to envision herself achieving power, if she believes, according to her faith that she is less than a man.

So many of the comments here are equating organized religion with Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.  There are other options and not all of them are patriarchal.  

Jaytee said:

Have you seen that movie called “the gods must be crazy” ? That might answer your first question. I’m thinking paganism pre dated organized religion, yet women are still punished for practicing it. How many women can relate with Mary Magdalene? Even though there’s nothing in the bible describing her as a prostitute, people still believe she was. But somehow she was possessed by demons…

I remember that movie title, might be worth searching for it!

As for Mary Magdalene I liked the theories presented in The Da Vinci Code.