Starting Fall 2016, state colleges in Mass require 4 years of math for admission
xavier67 said:
That is so wrong headed I don't know what to say.
Why is it wrong-headed?
Why should you have to take four years of math unless you want to major in math or a related major? What if you are going for an art degree? This is just one more way to make things difficult for no reason. Most people take four years of math to make their transcripts look better. Those that don't probably don't like math anyway and don't plan to do much of it in college.
It is ridiculous how schools push advanced academics when kids don't even have basic life skills and end up not even have the life skills to get a decent job and manage independent living.
people would benefit from lower levels of math..but more real world math classes...same with Language skills...the teach all the technicalities...and things most people find useless like Shakespeare...but spend very little time putting it to practical use....are they still pushing the 5 paragraph essay? There is no reason it can't be 4 paragraphs or even 6 or 8...in what real world are there always 3 points to make and only 3 points?
sac said:
xavier67 said:Why is it wrong-headed?
That is so wrong headed I don't know what to say.
There's been an increasing recognition of the need to reimagine (to borrow a term from tonight's Education Summit) secondary school education. Yet requiring 4 years of math for college admissions is going in the opposite direction. I can't think of a single good argument for requiring every high schooler to take calculus (or pre-calc) no matter their talent, interest, etc., in lieu of a course that will have more personal and academic resonance.
xavier67 said: I can't think of a single good argument for requiring every high schooler to take calculus (or pre-calc) no matter their talent, interest, etc., in lieu of a course that will have more personal and academic resonance.
They're not being required to take calculus. Algebra I, II, and geometry.
sac said:
xavier67 said:Why is it wrong-headed?
That is so wrong headed I don't know what to say.
I think that requirements such as this inevitably lead to a watering down of math courses. On the one hand, we have a country where we are telling people that to be anything, you have to go to college, notwithstanding that a soft degree from a low-grade college makes you competitive for jobs at McDonalds and not much else. On the other hand, we are increasingly establishing hurdles (e.g., 4 years of math) that students must clear to get into college. In this sort of situation, the hurdles will inevitably be watered down. So, it will be possible to have students who have completed 4 years of math while not really being any good at math.
RobB said:
xavier67 said: I can't think of a single good argument for requiring every high schooler to take calculus (or pre-calc) no matter their talent, interest, etc., in lieu of a course that will have more personal and academic resonance.They're not being required to take calculus. Algebra I, II, and geometry.
Perhaps. But the MA Edu website says applicants are required to have taken 4 years of math in HS, including during their senior year. Since most high schoolers take Algebra in 9th grade or earlier, wouldn't it mean taking Pre-Calc or Calc their senior year?
Only if they want to. My MA high school (many years ago) counted stats or accounting or the official "fill out that third required year" class; business math.
They told us it had to be a math department class. At CHS, accounting and personal finance are in the business department. Massachusetts high schools don't even require four years of math, although it is recommended.
statistics would count as a math class for 4th year if student did not want precalc- correct?
They said statistics counts (no pun intended) -as long as it's in the math department, which it is at CHS.
I will admit to being biased, since I was a math major, but nobody seems to be complaining about requirements for 4 years of English or however many years of foreign language, or whatever and I think you could make similar arguments against those or any other such admissions requirements.
There is a LOT of math illiteracy (innumeracy?) in our population, particularly with regards to statistics. That leads to poorly informed business, social and political policies and decisions in many cases. To me that is just as important as other forms of critical thinking, analysis, reading, writing, etc. for a well educated citizenry. Now, that doesn't mean that high school math curriculums are necessarily meeting those needs, but perhaps those need to be examined more carefully (as we "re-imagine" high school.)
Way back when I was in HS, taking AP calc my senior year (I don't know how it translates here but where I was I was a year advanced, I think we took things in different order) I hated it and wanted to drop math all together. Even back then my guidance counselor wouldn't let me because of where I was applying to college.
So, this doesn't necessarily surprise me, but I imagine schools will need to add different math courses to the department (such as personal finance) to round out the curriculum.
sac said:
I will admit to being biased, since I was a math major, but nobody seems to be complaining about requirements for 4 years of English or however many years of foreign language, or whatever and I think you could make similar arguments against those or any other such admissions requirements.
There is a LOT of math illiteracy (innumeracy?) in our population, particularly with regards to statistics. That leads to poorly informed business, social and political policies and decisions in many cases. To me that is just as important as other forms of critical thinking, analysis, reading, writing, etc. for a well educated citizenry. Now, that doesn't mean that high school math curriculums are necessarily meeting those needs, but perhaps those need to be examined more carefully (as we "re-imagine" high school.)
I agree with your larger point about the importance of math literacy, especially regarding statistics. But that education doesn't come close to requiring 4 years of high school math. This move by MA and other state university more than anything is about gate keeping, a narrow-minded gate keeping.
sarahkate said:
They told us it had to be a math department class. At CHS, accounting and personal finance are in the business department. Massachusetts high schools don't even require four years of math, although it is recommended.
We're moving back to Boston. In addition to the algebra, stats, trig, blah blah stuff, the local high school math department includes: intro to computer science, robotics, accounting, personal finance, critical thinking in math, and something called STEM capstone. For an out of state student I'm surprised there's no flexibility on something like accounting.
You don't have to take math your senior year? How is that even possible?
I believe that in New Jersey (and some/many other states), the high school graduation requirement is three years of Math. But the school advises that students should be aware that many colleges and universities require four, so this should not come as a huge surprise to anyone. As I recall, the same was true for one or two other subject areas at CHS, but I no longer recall which ones. (My youngest graduated in 2013.)
terp said:
You don't have to take math your senior year? How is that even possible?
This kinda ... a long time ago in a state just across a river I had to take 4 years of English, Math, Science, and Social Studies ... oh yeah and Religion to graduate High School. Didn't do Calc though pretty sure it went Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and Trigonometry and to be fare I couldn't explain what Trig was/is to save my life at this moment, pretty sure it was the one with the calculators and all the weird graphs.
We had 8 periods during the day and out of them 5 courses were required and 1 was lunch so you had 2 slots for electives or study halls.
I think with the advent of placement systems like ALECS and so on most reasonable schools should offer an out (for example what if your kid was home schooled, or particularly during the transition years, or for out-of-state students) like granting admission if they pass the ALECS assessment in the level of math knowledge desired by the school. I took placement exams and had to do half a semester of "College Algebra" (placed out on the mid-term) mostly because I was paying no attention in Trig most likely.
Anyway ... as has been noted Math is an important skill as important as English. It doesn't have to be Calculus and they should also allow for equivalent out-of-state non-Math department math class to count like robotics and so on.
In my opinion.
College is so expensive, and public high school isn't. I've read many articles where college administrators lament that their students are arriving in need of remediation in basic skills, just to get ready to start taking college courses. Maybe these requirements are the Massachusetts colleges saying, get these kids ready in high school, to start college. Don't make the families pay for noncredit remediation courses in college, just to get their kids to the starting line to start taking courses for college credit. Maybe the hope is that, down the line, this move will improve graduate-in-4-years rates at college. Which is a laudable goal, given how incredibly expensive college is.
Just wanted to give a heads up to families looking at college in the next couple of years. We visited several colleges this past week and were surprised to learn that public colleges and universities in Massachusetts will now require 4 years of math for admission, effective for students entering next fall. Even the admissions counselors admitted the state had not done a good job of getting the word out. My current senior and several friends had no clue about this and several are looking at UMass schools. Apparently, 4 years is also now required at state colleges in Maryland and Delaware plus it's coming soon in Connecticut. We knew not taking math as a senior would be an issue for certain programs and might limit the chances at extremely competitive colleges. But my kid was never looking at those kind of places and wanted to take classes in other areas of interest. We supported that, not realizing it would eliminate prospects at all Massachusetts public colleges. Massachusetts specifically requires that you take Mathematics (Algebra II minimum): 4 including math in the senior year of high school.
http://www.mass.edu/forstufam/admissions/admissionsstandards.asp
We were advised to look into adding math to the spring schedule and/or possibly take a community college or online class, apply anyway and take the chance that lots of kids will not meet the new requirements the first year in effect and of course, look at other schools. The schools in Mass were not our senior's top choices, but I imagine this will be a problem for many others.