Retroactive fence permits (and mea culpa) archived
Jul 9, 2008 at 12:59pm
Is this a fence on a corner property? If not, and assuming that it is on your property, not the neighbors, I don't think would have a major problem. If it is a corner fence, get out the Sawzall.
It is not on a corner property, and the neighbors seem quite content with it.
grauer - sorry, not kinda 'getting' what you're asking. So, something exists on your property........ what does having a permit for it now get you? ...Are you extending/adding to it? Are you embarking on some other type of property modification that'll force knowledge of said fence? Are you selling and want to have all property issues crossed t's & dotted i's before you offer it for sale? Not trying to pry, but..... not seeing toward what 'end result' this needs to be 'resolved'.
Jeff:
One issue might be the location of the fence. OP mentions that it is along the property line but does not mention whether a survey was conducted to ensure the entire fence was placed on the OP's side of the property line. This is an issue which could raise its ugly head at any time in the future and might be best resolved now.
One issue might be the location of the fence. OP mentions that it is along the property line but does not mention whether a survey was conducted to ensure the entire fence was placed on the OP's side of the property line. This is an issue which could raise its ugly head at any time in the future and might be best resolved now.
joan... well, ok, sure, getting that resolved would be important,,,, but then that's not quite a permit or involving-the-town-type issue exactly. That's more a neighbor and property line issue. A town doesn't solve/rule on those topics. Acquiring a permit -now- for a fence involving a property line dispute won't validate an encroachment (at least, I sure don't think it would...). Why don't we see what Grauer explains.
Although my question doesn't really have anything to do with the circumstances, we are considering selling our property, and will have to represent in the disclosures that all work was done with a permit. So we can't necessarily make that representation at this time. Although our neighbors may not have an issue with the fence, potential buyers may demand that the fence be removed/replaced if it is encroaching.
Back to my question: What would we can expect if we go to the Township now with this information. Will they impose a fine? Demand that a new survey be performed? Require us to rip out the fence? Just wondering if anyone has encountered this situation(or knows someone who encountered this) in a home sale or other after-the-fact scenario.
Thanks in advance.
Back to my question: What would we can expect if we go to the Township now with this information. Will they impose a fine? Demand that a new survey be performed? Require us to rip out the fence? Just wondering if anyone has encountered this situation(or knows someone who encountered this) in a home sale or other after-the-fact scenario.
Thanks in advance.
P.S. We have not done a survey, so we do not know whether the fence is actually encroaching.
If you tell them that you didn't know about the rules, you might not get a fine. However, part of the permit/inspection process is to make sure that the post holes are to code (depth) and the finished side is facing your neighbors. I don't know how they would inspect post hole depth without digging it up and if the finished side is facing the wrong way, you'd probably have to fix it.
Maybe someone who has installed a fence and gone through the process can tell you what was required to pass. Did they have to have a survey, etc.? We did when we put in central A/C to show the property line.
Once you know the code, you can assess how your installation measures up and the risk you want to take in asking the town to look at it.
When we bought our house 11 years ago, after home inspection, we asked for the permit work for the deck and only then was it disclosed that there was no permit. We didn't make a big deal about it; it was just a negotiating point to get bigger things fixed. The town considered it "grandfathered" and it wasn't a problem once we closed.
Times were different then, so I don't know whether the town would be as lenient. I'd call and ask at what point in a home sale the town does their inspection and how they determine whether changes are to code or when they were made. For example, if the former owners installed the fence and the town OKed the CO when you bought it, you can't be forced to make changes now. Unless, I guess, something is egregiously dangerous.
Actually, there have been so many issues with fences lately that Maplewood is likely to take a strong stance on ensuring you are to code. But that's just my guess.
Maybe someone who has installed a fence and gone through the process can tell you what was required to pass. Did they have to have a survey, etc.? We did when we put in central A/C to show the property line.
Once you know the code, you can assess how your installation measures up and the risk you want to take in asking the town to look at it.
When we bought our house 11 years ago, after home inspection, we asked for the permit work for the deck and only then was it disclosed that there was no permit. We didn't make a big deal about it; it was just a negotiating point to get bigger things fixed. The town considered it "grandfathered" and it wasn't a problem once we closed.
Times were different then, so I don't know whether the town would be as lenient. I'd call and ask at what point in a home sale the town does their inspection and how they determine whether changes are to code or when they were made. For example, if the former owners installed the fence and the town OKed the CO when you bought it, you can't be forced to make changes now. Unless, I guess, something is egregiously dangerous.
Actually, there have been so many issues with fences lately that Maplewood is likely to take a strong stance on ensuring you are to code. But that's just my guess.
When we replaced an exsisting fence a few years back(and not getting the 6ft one we wanted to hide the trash behind us)we had to present a copy of the survey in order for them to process the permit.
grauer, well, imo, you're making a mountain out of molehill. I don't think the town need be involved at all, nor [again imo] does one HAVE to 'represent in the disclosures that all work was done with a permit' unless you choose to..... it's a home sale, and if someone wants to buy it, a fence is gonna be the least of the negotiation hurdles on establishing the price. Personally, I'd be more questioning why your neighbors aren't worried about a possible encroachment onto their property. But sounds as if you'd best just go to the town, at least about crossing the t's. GT's deck example is probably the town's view of the fence anyway [grnafathered; no impact on consumation of a sale) & it'd be coin toss that they'll hold you to current ordinances. If you are gearing to sell, getting a survey is always prudent.
Thanks for your responses. The survey will reveal if there is anything to be concerned about.
Every time I see this thread title, I read it as "Radioactive fence permits" :rolling:
Hi, I'm late to chime in, but I do not see problems here.
1. Forget a survey, no one is having a problem.
2. Draw up your property, add a fence, describe it and file for a new permit.
No need to go in explaining anything.
If approved, good. If not approved, learn why and figure out how to solve that.
If approved, wait 2 weeks and call for final.
Done.
Later,
George
1. Forget a survey, no one is having a problem.
2. Draw up your property, add a fence, describe it and file for a new permit.
No need to go in explaining anything.
If approved, good. If not approved, learn why and figure out how to solve that.
If approved, wait 2 weeks and call for final.
Done.
Later,
George
Wouldn't you have gotten a survey when you bought your house? I don't understand how you'd expect to get a permit without a survey. How would you expect them to agree to approve a hand-made drawing that wasn't certified by a professional? If the measurements are wrong, then they'd be approving a fence on someone else's property.
Bee,
You are over thinking this process. I have pulled 12-14 fence permits. The Township approves your plans to the code. They do not certify placement.
When they inspect, they check how high the fence is, which side is out and the property setbacks to the code.
End of process.
Hand drawn plans with straight line and correct measurement are all that are required from a home owner. This is not a project needing an architect.
Later,
George
You are over thinking this process. I have pulled 12-14 fence permits. The Township approves your plans to the code. They do not certify placement.
When they inspect, they check how high the fence is, which side is out and the property setbacks to the code.
End of process.
Hand drawn plans with straight line and correct measurement are all that are required from a home owner. This is not a project needing an architect.
Later,
George
Posted By: BeeWouldn't you have gotten a survey when you bought your house? I don't understand how you'd expect to get a permit without a survey. How would you expect them to agree to approve a hand-made drawing that wasn't certified by a professional? If the measurements are wrong, then they'd be approving a fence on someone else's property.Property owners can submit their own drawings. You are not required to have a professional do a drawing for DIY projects just because they require a permit.
Wow. I'm surprised. When we did C/A, we had to show the survey and they measured the property line. While it works out for neighbors who get along, it seems stupid that the town doesn't require that you prove no property line issues.
If I put up a fence and the town OKed it based on my drawing, then the neighbor disputed the line and we ended up in a legal situation, I would think that the town would be named somewhere in a lawsuit. Especially since they require the survey and check the line for other projects requiring permits.
Seems like a legal liability to the taxpayers. I had neighbors who went through a nasty situation on this very issue.
If I put up a fence and the town OKed it based on my drawing, then the neighbor disputed the line and we ended up in a legal situation, I would think that the town would be named somewhere in a lawsuit. Especially since they require the survey and check the line for other projects requiring permits.
Seems like a legal liability to the taxpayers. I had neighbors who went through a nasty situation on this very issue.
True confessions. Our first MW house had a 50X175 lot. One of our next door neighbors (long since moved) had bipolar. For several years we lived w a constant verbal barrage whenever we went out to our back yard. If all was quiet and we attempted to read the newspaper early 7ish on a Sunday morning our neighbor would be out to talk about whatever ( sales at Macy's and summer fur storage being 2 recurring themes). We were dog sitting for Wade, a very agile Jack Russell Terrier who once jumped over our 4 foot fence to visit w our neighbor . Neighbor screamed, Wade jumped back in to our yard. I assured neighbor that was the last time she would be threatened by Wade. Next week illegal 6 ft stockade fence installed. Blueberry pie to neighbor, we regain use of our back yard, Wade goes back to Summit. Years later house sold "Great back yard" never an issue. You might enjoy what you have and leave well enough alone.
greenetree,
If you put up a fence based on an OK'd drawing, and, later issues developed, the Township is not involved.
The Township would only approve a plan based on the plan and the measurements of offsets presented in that plan. Now you go and stick the fence in another persons yard, you have a civil matter for lawyers to resolve in civil court. The Township has nothing to do with that.
Are taxpayers liable. No.
Recently, South Orange approved a very expensive set of plans for a $30,000.00 commercial exhaust system. The system was built and installed.
A commercial neighbor did not like the result and complained to the Township that it was wrong and was not to code.
The South Orange came out, agreed that the plan was not to code, and told the builder to remove it and submit a new set of plans.
The contractor went over to town hall and pointed out that he built the system to an "Approved set of Plans", stamped and signed by the South Orange building department.
The comment was, sorry, we made a mistake. The system has to be removed and reengineered and re-installed.
The contractor spent $8,000.00 to re-do the system, and when he asked about the Township paying for the mistake, the answer is no, the Township represents the people of South Orange and there is a State law that stops law suits for such errors.
Contractor eats it.
Hey, the cost of business.
Later,
George
If you put up a fence based on an OK'd drawing, and, later issues developed, the Township is not involved.
The Township would only approve a plan based on the plan and the measurements of offsets presented in that plan. Now you go and stick the fence in another persons yard, you have a civil matter for lawyers to resolve in civil court. The Township has nothing to do with that.
Are taxpayers liable. No.
Recently, South Orange approved a very expensive set of plans for a $30,000.00 commercial exhaust system. The system was built and installed.
A commercial neighbor did not like the result and complained to the Township that it was wrong and was not to code.
The South Orange came out, agreed that the plan was not to code, and told the builder to remove it and submit a new set of plans.
The contractor went over to town hall and pointed out that he built the system to an "Approved set of Plans", stamped and signed by the South Orange building department.
The comment was, sorry, we made a mistake. The system has to be removed and reengineered and re-installed.
The contractor spent $8,000.00 to re-do the system, and when he asked about the Township paying for the mistake, the answer is no, the Township represents the people of South Orange and there is a State law that stops law suits for such errors.
Contractor eats it.
Hey, the cost of business.
Later,
George
George - that's interesting. I didn't know about it. As a taxpayer, I'm relieved. As the customer or Pro, I'd be pissed as hell.
In terms of the deck drawings, it just seems stupid not to require a stamped survey for fences on property lines when all other projects involving property coverage issue do. If you have a neighbor who watches the construction of legal structure on a property line, placed in good faith and belief that it is correct by the homeowner, says nothing and then challenges the property line when it is completed, it makes for very bad vibes.
Too bad the town isn't more focused on that than whether the water in my shower is too hot. Especially since, after inspection, I can alter the regulator if I am so inclined. I can't easily move a fence.
In terms of the deck drawings, it just seems stupid not to require a stamped survey for fences on property lines when all other projects involving property coverage issue do. If you have a neighbor who watches the construction of legal structure on a property line, placed in good faith and belief that it is correct by the homeowner, says nothing and then challenges the property line when it is completed, it makes for very bad vibes.
Too bad the town isn't more focused on that than whether the water in my shower is too hot. Especially since, after inspection, I can alter the regulator if I am so inclined. I can't easily move a fence.
You too hot shower is a saftey issue. Children, elderly and old farts like me get scalded way too often. By having a proper valve installed, no one is hurt now or later.
A fence placement issue. No one is hurt and the lawyers make a bundle.
Deck drawings are not fence drawings. Different issues involved.
Later,
George
A fence placement issue. No one is hurt and the lawyers make a bundle.
Deck drawings are not fence drawings. Different issues involved.
Later,
George
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Comments welcome - Flaming and finger wagging, not-so-much.