Oh Look. The World Police to the Rescue.

BG9

We’re going to guarantee the freedom of navigation through the straits,” Pompeo said on “Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace.” “This is an international challenge. This is important to the entire globe. The United States is going to make sure that we take all actions necessary, diplomatic and otherwise, to achieve that outcome.”

Aren't we the wonderful? We the, world police, the guaranteers of freedom.

“We have confidence that Iran instigated this attack,” he said. “I can’t share any more of the intelligence.

Oh, he can't share? What a shame. Just as we couldn't share when Colin Powell was propped before the U.N. telling all, trust us, Saddam Hussein has WMD's.


And now unusual comments from our allies. Will this be the new normal? America isolated?

Sunday, Japan’s Kyodo News Agency said “a source close to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe” told the agency that Pompeo’s evidence did not amount to “definite proof” that Iran carried out the attack.

Even if it's the United States that makes the assertion, we cannot simply say we believe it,” a source close to the prime minister told the Kyodo news agency about Pompeo’s previous statements.

Germany’s foreign minister has also questioned the utility of a video released by the Pentagon purporting to show Iranians in a small patrol boat removing an unexploded mine from one of the tankers, saying it is insufficient as evidence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/saudi-crown-prince-blames-iran-for-tanker-attacks-as-tensions-soar/2019/06/16/7eeb43ca-900c-11e9-b162-8f6f41ec3c04_story.html


Morganna

This has a familiar ring to it.


yahooyahoo

The Trump administration is a clown show.


RealityForAll

Is anyone suggesting these attacks on oil tankers are really false flag incidents?


If so, who is  creating these false flag incidents?


ml1
RealityForAll said:
Is anyone suggesting these attacks on oil tankers are really false flag incidents?


If so, who is  creating these false flag incidents?

There are other countries in the region who would love for the U.S. to bomb the crap out of Iran.  The problem we have is that U.S. history is rife with examples where we were lied into wars.  And now we have a president who lies almost every time he opens his mouth.  How is any sane person expected to unquestioningly believe Iran is behind these attacks?


tjohn

Assuming Iran did execute the attacks and assume we bomb Iran and cause enormous damage to military and infrastructure targets and assume that Russia arms Iran with high quality air defense systems.  Can somebody explain to me how this puts us in a better position before Deranged Donnie started picking a fight with Iran?


BG9
RealityForAll said:
Is anyone suggesting these attacks on oil tankers are really false flag incidents?


If so, who is  creating these false flag incidents?

Its possible but I think not. Iran did say if they can't sell their oil then they will ensure neither will others. Maybe we should take them at their word, this being their lesson of what may happen.

OTOH, any state actor can get an Iranian gunboat and stage a mine removal. Saudi Arabia has much to gain by stoking up fear and anger towards Iran. 

The Saudi's real issue isn't Iranian terrorism, being themselves comfortable in spreading as such. Its religious and who gets to be the Middle East primary power. The religion angle being Shiite and Sunni. Similar to our 17th Century Protestant and Catholic.

It would be nice if they all moved from their bloody middle age mindset. We are in the 21st Century.

The real issue is this administration has no credibility.


BG9
tjohn said:
Assuming Iran did execute the attacks and assume we bomb Iran and cause enormous damage to military and infrastructure targets and assume that Russia arms Iran with high quality air defense systems.  Can somebody explain to me how this puts us in a better position before Deranged Donnie started picking a fight with Iran?

How much would a good bloody war help the Deranged One? To divert from the investigations, the Mueller report, impeachment, emoluments and courting the aid of foreign powers for personal gain?


Red_Barchetta
BG9 said:
How much would a good bloody war help the Deranged One? To divert from the investigations, the Mueller report, impeachment, emoluments and courting the aid of foreign powers for personal gain?

 I think it’s that he needs to look tough for his base.  Similar the alignment with other ‘tough guys’:  miners, PD, FD, soldiers, etc.  He’s a narcissist with an inferiority complex. 


nohero
RealityForAll said:
Is anyone suggesting these attacks on oil tankers are really false flag incidents?


If so, who is  creating these false flag incidents?

Right now, there is no "flag" to falsify, just suspicions.

But the "who is creating" could be anybody who (a) benefits if the price of oil goes up, (b) would like attention in that part of the world to be drawn away from other hotspots, such as Syria, and (c) wouldn't mind if the U.S. mixed it up with Iran.

But don't go Russian to any conclusions.   cheese 


BG9
ridski said:
Here is the plan.


https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/141604554855825408?lang=en

Good find !

Obama not having done it, he can now own that opportunity.

I'm showing it here in case its "deleted."


yahooyahoo

There are at least three Trump tweets going way back that reference Obama starting a war with Iran.

Trump is such a dope.


joanne

What I love is just how old those tweets are - that timeline is so interesting/revealing. The historian in me is drafting hypothetical encyclopaedia entries cheese 


proeasdf

Who placed mines on the oil tankers (is the real question)?


Who detonated them?


LOST

"Remember the Maine"


BG9
proeasdf said:
Who placed mines on the oil tankers (is the real question)?


Who detonated them?

Even if the Iranians did, many our former allies may say "you (the U.S.) started this by dishonoring the Iranian nuclear agreement. Good luck playing world police."

Also, Trumps constant lies and f.u. boasts to our former allies was not helpful. Created distrust and resentment.

Yeah, f.u. allies, until they're needed.


joanne

I'm very confused: I thought the whole focus was to bring everyone home, finally.

Instead it seems as if there's a contradictory official statement every couple of weeks.

I'm not sure how your highest level policy people expect allies to plan, commit and budget for joint efforts when apparently you can't make up your own minds and stick to it. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/17/us-to-send-1000-additional-troops-to-the-middle-east-citing-hostile-behavior



tjohn
joanne said:
I'm very confused: I thought the whole focus was to bring everyone home, finally.
Instead it seems as if there's a contradictory official statement every couple of weeks.
I'm not sure how your highest level policy people expect allies to plan, commit and budget for joint efforts when apparently you can't make up your own minds and stick to it. 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/17/us-to-send-1000-additional-troops-to-the-middle-east-citing-hostile-behavior


The best way to understand Trump is to realize that for him, everyday is a new episode of some reality T.V. show which may or may not be related to previous episodes.    I don't really think that anybody in the Trump Administration has really thought out their Iran policy and where it might lead.  Even those who want war have perhaps not noticed that the last few intervention wars we started didn't really make things better for anybody.


joanne

Individually, we get that. But on behalf of our separate nations, we can’t take on responsibilities on this basis: we can’t agree to to a course of action, with agreed milestones and target-dates when you keep changing priorities, dates, scope and even who-does-what-to-whom. This affects our budgets, our political focus, our productivity focus, our aid projects as well as our trade alliances; most of us have previously set a lot of multi-pronged calendars in place several years ago with tweaking every 6 months. 

Pretty much destroyed most projections from around here for the next while. 


yahooyahoo
BG9 said:


proeasdf said:
Who placed mines on the oil tankers (is the real question)?


Who detonated them?
Even if the Iranians did, many our former allies may say "you (the U.S.) started this by dishonoring the Iranian nuclear agreement. Good luck playing world police."
Also, Trumps constant lies and f.u. boasts to our former allies was not helpful. Created distrust and resentment.
Yeah, f.u. allies, until they're needed.

The crew of one of the ships said they saw flying objects just before the explosions.

https://www.businessinsider.com/oil-tanker-owner-flying-objects-hit-ship-us-mine-claim-2019-6

  • The owner of one of two oil tankers attacked in the Gulf of Oman on Thursday says the crew saw "flying objects" before the ship was hit, seeming to contradict the US government's narrative.




proeasdf
BG9 said:


proeasdf said:
Who placed mines on the oil tankers (is the real question)?


Who detonated them?
Even if the Iranians did, many our former allies may say "you (the U.S.) started this by dishonoring the Iranian nuclear agreement. Good luck playing world police."
Also, Trumps constant lies and f.u. boasts to our former allies was not helpful. Created distrust and resentment.
Yeah, f.u. allies, until they're needed.

 I beg to disagree.  IMHO, a change in foreign policy* (essentially, words on  a piece of paper by a US president no longer in office - with the new president  no longer giving effect to the prior agreement) almost never justifies physical aggression.


Clearly, you believe otherwise with respect to this Iran deal and subsequent oil tanker mining.  Can you think of another instance where a change in policy between states justifies physical aggression?

*- my understanding is that the Iran Deal was an executive agreement (rather than a treaty).

PS I think DJT is a buffoon but I am almost always against physical aggression (especially by state actors).


lord_pabulum
tjohn said:
The best way to understand Trump is to realize that for him, everyday is a new episode of some reality T.V. show which may or may not be related to previous episodes.    I don't really think that anybody in the Trump Administration has really thought out their Iran policy and where it might lead.  Even those who want war have perhaps not noticed that the last few intervention wars we started didn't really make things better for anybody.

Would this explain Bush and Iraq I wonder. Nah.  There were weapons of mass destruction involved.

Like the Allies quotes in the OP, I would be circumspect as well.


Klinker

Whatever we do it will be without our wife beating Defense Secretary. 


tjohn
lord_pabulum said:


tjohn said:
The best way to understand Trump is to realize that for him, everyday is a new episode of some reality T.V. show which may or may not be related to previous episodes.    I don't really think that anybody in the Trump Administration has really thought out their Iran policy and where it might lead.  Even those who want war have perhaps not noticed that the last few intervention wars we started didn't really make things better for anybody.
Would this explain Bush and Iraq I wonder. Nah.  There were weapons of mass destruction involved.
Like the Allies quotes in the OP, I would be circumspect as well.

 Not really.  I disagreed with invading Iraq, but I think the Bush Administration had a vision with a bit more substance than securing the adulation of the Trump faithful on a daily basis.


Steve
Klinker said:
Whatever we do it will be without our wife beating Defense Secretary. 

Actually, he was beaten by his wife and defended his son (who seemingly beat her just short of death).  As far as I know, there are no allegations that Shanahan ever hit anyone.


Klinker
Steve said:


Klinker said:
Whatever we do it will be without our wife beating Defense Secretary. 
Actually, he was beaten by his wife and defended his son (who seemingly beat her just short of death).  As far as I know, there are no allegations that Shanahan ever hit anyone.

 She says he punched her in the stomach while he denies it and says she hit him. Something wrong with that family....


Steve
Klinker said:
 She says he punched her in the stomach while he denies it and says she hit him. Something wrong with that family....

Something wrong with everybody who signs on to the current administration.  She was arrested; he was not.


DottyParker

A point was made, by Rachel Maddow, that because the Trump administration's vetting process for cabinet candidates is so inadequate, the skeletons rattling in the closets wind up getting exposed by the FBI and the family secrets become headline news.  

An issue with Shanahan seemed to be his defense of his son fracturing his mother's skull and elbow with a baseball bat because of her relentless nagging.  Junior yanked out the phone lines so that mom couldn't call 911 for help before he fled the scene to hide out with dad in an undisclosed location.

Shanahan was/is very concerned that this could ruin his son's reputation and his potential career as a pro baseball slugger.  


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/william-shanahan-defense-secretary-son-wife-violence.html



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