How much is too much (medical care for older pet) archived
Apr 5, 2009 at 4:24pm
I think this is such an individual decision, you can't put an amount on what is too much. My parents put thousands into having a tumor removed from our dog three times. Finally they decided it was just too much and put her down. It was awful and sad, and probably one of the hardest things they have ever done.
Apr 5, 2009 at 4:46pm Edited
I have been in this situation more than once. You've done what you can for him. You can spend a small fortune and it may not benefit him much or change his condition. There are many younger cats suffering health issues who could benefit from your kindness, and generosity. Tens of thousands of perfectly healthy young cats and dogs are euthanized every year, many before they've even had a chance at life, simply because they have nobody who will care for them. It's a tragedy and a national disgrace. If you love cats and other animals think about what your love and money could do to make a difference in their lives. And I hope things go well for him from here on.
Hi new_2_nj. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth. 11 is older, but not elderly for a cat (it is equal to about 60 in people yrs.) There are some good and newer drugs on the market - if you get your cat on the right protocol he could live a relatively healthy and event-free life for several more yrs. It depends on how severe the case is and how long they think he has had it. I would guess your cat experienced a syncope? Which is scary and symptomatic of the underlying disease. Check out petplace.com for good info on this. He is your family - there is nothing irresponsible for providing the best care you can to a cat you made a commitment to care for and love for life. See what the drs have to say - if he can be medicated and have a good quality of life, I would do what I could. My cardiomyopathy cat lived a good life for 8 yrs after diagnosis. From time to time we had to adjust his meds and monitor him with ultrasounds - he was an awesome boy! I wish you well and hope it is not too severe.
Its your money and you shouldn't feel bad about spending it on your pet..... But, at some point, probably pretty soon, its going to be time to just let nature take its course and then either work on managing the pain, or helping your cat by ending his suffering should he start to suffer.
I went through this a couple years ago with my diabetic cat and since he wouldn't eat there was no way he was going to get better. He couldn't move, but wasn't in pain, so I let nature take its course and he died in my arms. Although it was very sad, I thought it was a good way for both of us for him to go.
So sorry about your poor friend....
I went through this a couple years ago with my diabetic cat and since he wouldn't eat there was no way he was going to get better. He couldn't move, but wasn't in pain, so I let nature take its course and he died in my arms. Although it was very sad, I thought it was a good way for both of us for him to go.
So sorry about your poor friend....
I don't have any advice to offer but I am sorry. I heard Dr. Richard Orzeck (famous vet) on the radio a few weeks ago talking about all the advances in veterinary medicine. He spoke of how the science has moved so quickly in the last few years and has all these very expensive options for pet owners to consider but isn't really training vets on how to counsel the humans to help make humane but reasonable choices.
i kept bringing one of my cats to oradell for treatment back in 1989-1991, until i was finally told by dr g at millburn vet kitty was in pain and not happy. then the cat was suffering. by then i had spent over ten grand keeping him alive. as others said, it's a personal choice.
i kept hoping the choice would be made for me. but kitty for some reason kept hanging on. when he looked at me with the saddest face i realized what my choice had to be. he had trouble breathing, lost weight and had heart problems. it was the hardest choice i ever had to make.
i'll send some prayers up for your kitty.
i kept hoping the choice would be made for me. but kitty for some reason kept hanging on. when he looked at me with the saddest face i realized what my choice had to be. he had trouble breathing, lost weight and had heart problems. it was the hardest choice i ever had to make.
i'll send some prayers up for your kitty.
Dear New_2_nj:
Have you addressed these issues with the doctors at Oradell? There is a difference between expensive diagnostics and expensive treatments. I can see why the original visit was costly as the tests are very expensive but you should discuss with them what the maintenance of the illness will entail. Now that you know what the problem is you should see if your local vet can take over the follow ups as the treatment will be known since you already have a diagnosis. You should address this with you regular vet and see what he says. It will be alot cheaper if you can bring him there and since he will already know what the issue is it shouldn't be so hard for him/her to treat the cat. Sadly even pet insurance wouldn't help as they don't cover preexisting conditions.
Have you addressed these issues with the doctors at Oradell? There is a difference between expensive diagnostics and expensive treatments. I can see why the original visit was costly as the tests are very expensive but you should discuss with them what the maintenance of the illness will entail. Now that you know what the problem is you should see if your local vet can take over the follow ups as the treatment will be known since you already have a diagnosis. You should address this with you regular vet and see what he says. It will be alot cheaper if you can bring him there and since he will already know what the issue is it shouldn't be so hard for him/her to treat the cat. Sadly even pet insurance wouldn't help as they don't cover preexisting conditions.
Whatever you do, please keep in mind that it's the right decision.
Posted By: new_2_nj He's my cat and my responsibility and I don't want to give up on him, but to see the hardships people are going through right now and it feels irresponsible to pour this much money into an old, sick cat when it could do so much more for humans.
I don't think that treating your cat will change the situations of others in the world. Whatever you decide about your cat - it's unrelated to other people's lives, so I wouldn't let this particular thing be a factor in your decision. You should be weighing your own financial situation and the medical condition of your cat to make the decisions you're trying to make.
I think bajou offers some good ideas to look into as well.
And...I'm so sorry your dear cat is going through. That is not an easy thing to manage.
When my 16 yo cat had cancer, now almost 2 years ago, her treatment decisions were made both on what the chances were for a good outcome as well as thinking about cost.
As the disease progressed, it became clear that the cancer was aggressive, and that while there were much more aggressive treatments (that were very much more expensive), the quality of her life would not have been good, and likely would not have given her more than a bit more time.
She was a sweetie and purred in my lap until the very end. At the same time -- the cancer was doing terrible things to her body, which made it hard to eat, drink, groom. And then it was time to let her go.
I wish you well in your decisions -- its clear your love your kitty and this is very hard for you.
Pete
As the disease progressed, it became clear that the cancer was aggressive, and that while there were much more aggressive treatments (that were very much more expensive), the quality of her life would not have been good, and likely would not have given her more than a bit more time.
She was a sweetie and purred in my lap until the very end. At the same time -- the cancer was doing terrible things to her body, which made it hard to eat, drink, groom. And then it was time to let her go.
I wish you well in your decisions -- its clear your love your kitty and this is very hard for you.
Pete
Posted By: petegliderShe was a sweetie and purred in my lap until the very end. At the same time -- the cancer was doing terrible things to her body, which made it hard to eat, drink, groom. And then it was time to let her go.
I had the same experience with a 17 year old cat with aggressive mouth cancer. The wonderful vet who used to be at Maplewood Animal Hospital advised us that she would not be able to swallow soon and surgery would only prolong life, but give her no quality, just pain. He put her down with the kind of empathy I will always remember. We had brought a wooden box my son made with us. After she died, the vet took the cat's blanket, put it in the box, put her in and covered her with a clean medical pad. She looked like she was sleeping. Her remains rest in our backyard - along with assorted other pets!
My son, on the other hand, went through a terrible time with a vet in NYC. His 14 year old cat, we think, was eventually killed by over enthusiastic medical procedures! He is still paying off a $7800 vet bill.
Apr 6, 2009 at 6:11am Edited
The worst thing about having a cat with cardiomyopathy is that the tests never end. My Sasha has this, which has now reached the stage where she has an irregular heart rhythm, and when we went through the first round of tests, to the tune of thousands, and then the first and second emergency runs to Animal Emergency and Referral Associates (another few thousands) we went back to our regular vet, who kept recommending we go to this other vet or that cardiologist for further tests every few months to see where she was by that time, in order to adjust her medications.
This is the real heartbreak for us. Sasha is the light of our lives, she seems very happy and shows no signs of pain, but we know she is gradually getting worse and that no amount of medication is going to stop that. And the vets just keep on saying, "Let's do this test, let's do that test..." and every time we go to the doctor, Sasha goes into a frenzy of fear and anxiety, and our bank account shrinks by another few thousand.
The only thing I've been through that was more terrifying and heartbreaking than this was losing my father. I love Sasha and would do anything for her, but this is like being slowly bled to death, without any hope of a cure, ever. We are just playing for time, and paying through the nose. In between vet visits, we try to forget what's happening, make sure she is taking every dose of medication, and enjoying the time we have with her.
I feel your pain, new-2-nj. :cry:
Oh, a note: Sasha is only four.
This is the real heartbreak for us. Sasha is the light of our lives, she seems very happy and shows no signs of pain, but we know she is gradually getting worse and that no amount of medication is going to stop that. And the vets just keep on saying, "Let's do this test, let's do that test..." and every time we go to the doctor, Sasha goes into a frenzy of fear and anxiety, and our bank account shrinks by another few thousand.
The only thing I've been through that was more terrifying and heartbreaking than this was losing my father. I love Sasha and would do anything for her, but this is like being slowly bled to death, without any hope of a cure, ever. We are just playing for time, and paying through the nose. In between vet visits, we try to forget what's happening, make sure she is taking every dose of medication, and enjoying the time we have with her.
I feel your pain, new-2-nj. :cry:
Oh, a note: Sasha is only four.
Apr 6, 2009 at 7:18am Edited
I cannot speak for cats, since my 21-year old was kind enough to have a stroke and kidney failure as not to make it a hard decision for me to end her life. It more of a kind act to end her suffering. It was not long and drawn out.
My boxer however was diagnosed with cancer in Nov 07, and in Feb 08, started to show the signs of it. From there I agreed to surgery, which only dropped her into depression, but didn't really change her health condition. $$$ spent. By March I thought the kindest thing would be to let her go, but our vet thought she had more time. From March to July things got worse, and I made the decision to only control her pain, and not treat her for cancer. I changed her diet, and gave her pain meds. Still $$ spent. In August 08 she had deteriorated so badly I finally had her put down. I was devestated--and still recovering from my loss. SO I understand what you are going through with your kitty.
BUT in hindsight, I should have followed my first instinct to let her go back in March 08. She suffered the last few months. It was no quality of life. AND that is something you should consider for your kitty. Quality of life--is your kitty happy, is you kitty pain free? If you are spending $$$$ and your kitty still suffers, then you have to ask these quality of life questions.
Sometimes love means letting go.
My boxer however was diagnosed with cancer in Nov 07, and in Feb 08, started to show the signs of it. From there I agreed to surgery, which only dropped her into depression, but didn't really change her health condition. $$$ spent. By March I thought the kindest thing would be to let her go, but our vet thought she had more time. From March to July things got worse, and I made the decision to only control her pain, and not treat her for cancer. I changed her diet, and gave her pain meds. Still $$ spent. In August 08 she had deteriorated so badly I finally had her put down. I was devestated--and still recovering from my loss. SO I understand what you are going through with your kitty.
BUT in hindsight, I should have followed my first instinct to let her go back in March 08. She suffered the last few months. It was no quality of life. AND that is something you should consider for your kitty. Quality of life--is your kitty happy, is you kitty pain free? If you are spending $$$$ and your kitty still suffers, then you have to ask these quality of life questions.
Sometimes love means letting go.
Dear new_2,
Everybody has to figure this one out for themselves, and it sucks when finances and medical needs have to come into the same conversation. I do have to agree with TigerLilly:
In my case:
At age 2, I almost lost my beloved Monster, an adoptee from HSUSA, to a completely blocked urinary tract. At the time, I was just out of schoool, earning next to nothing and the vet bills almost killed me, but I couldn't have let him go when his troubles were so easily cured.
At age 11, out of nowhere, he developed what was ultimately diagnosed as chronic hepatitis. It took 6 months of near-constant vet care, pounds of deli turkey and thousands of dollars to pull him through, but at no time was he so ill that he was unhappy to see me.
At age 15, he developed a thyroid tumor and getting tapazole into him twice a day just made him mad, so we opted to have I131 treatment. He tolerated it very well, the tumor went away and my bank balance took another good hit.
My Monster lived to nearly 18. I let him go when he was very, very old and sick. His kidneys were failing and he probably had intestinal cancer. To this day, I consider myself fortunate that I was able to make the medical decisions for him that I did. I wouldn't have done anything differently.
Everybody has to figure this one out for themselves, and it sucks when finances and medical needs have to come into the same conversation. I do have to agree with TigerLilly:
Posted By: TigerLillyI don't think that treating your cat will change the situations of others in the world. Whatever you decide about your cat - it's unrelated to other people's lives, so I wouldn't let this particular thing be a factor in your decision. You should be weighing your own financial situation and the medical condition of your cat to make the decisions you're trying to make.
In my case:
At age 2, I almost lost my beloved Monster, an adoptee from HSUSA, to a completely blocked urinary tract. At the time, I was just out of schoool, earning next to nothing and the vet bills almost killed me, but I couldn't have let him go when his troubles were so easily cured.
At age 11, out of nowhere, he developed what was ultimately diagnosed as chronic hepatitis. It took 6 months of near-constant vet care, pounds of deli turkey and thousands of dollars to pull him through, but at no time was he so ill that he was unhappy to see me.
At age 15, he developed a thyroid tumor and getting tapazole into him twice a day just made him mad, so we opted to have I131 treatment. He tolerated it very well, the tumor went away and my bank balance took another good hit.
My Monster lived to nearly 18. I let him go when he was very, very old and sick. His kidneys were failing and he probably had intestinal cancer. To this day, I consider myself fortunate that I was able to make the medical decisions for him that I did. I wouldn't have done anything differently.
I had two Shelties who were both diagnosed a year apart with congestive heart failure. The original test was about a thousand dollars at the clinic on Bloomfield Ave. When the second dog developed similar symptons my local vet began treatment for that dog as well. Well, I had two dogs on heart medicine and diuretics for about a year and a half. The heart medicine was very expensive (the same given to humans). I felt guilty about the expense but these dogs meant the world to me and my kids. My now-ex said at the time to not worry about it so much because he was in a position to pay for the meds and it was cheaper than putting the kids and me in therapy. In due time the meds were ineffective but we extended their lives for another year in no pain. Go with your heart.
MOLers here will remember that a few years back we were very concerned about our Minnie, thinking she wouldn't last the winter. She was around 13 years or so then. She could barely crawl, was in constant pain, was having cortisone injections and was refusing to eat or drink. By the summer, however, she had recovered and apart from chronic asthma, the odd infection, occasional bad mood (shown by poor toiletting) and semi-regular furball regurgitation, she's doing OK now. She's heading on to 18 or so (no-one's quite certain how old she is, she is a rescued stray although we've had her since '93). I mean yes she has cataracts and is going deaf. Yes she has some dementia. She's old!! But she's healthy, relatively active for her age, mostly pain-free depending on the weather.
My point is, see how he goes now. I think you'll know the point when it's time to let him go with dignity. Love every minute from now until then.
Love and snuggles from the Paradise Point Outpost
My point is, see how he goes now. I think you'll know the point when it's time to let him go with dignity. Love every minute from now until then.
Love and snuggles from the Paradise Point Outpost
Apr 6, 2009 at 4:56pm Edited
Thanks to everyone for your kind words and support. It really means a lot and has helped me get through the past day. The patient is home from the hospital today. I think they wanted him to stay another night for additional monitoring, but considering he's been stabilized since he arrived, I couldn't justify it (seriously, I could have gotten him a night at the Mandarin Oriental with all the blue fin tuna he could eat for less).
Peggy C - so sorry to hear about your Sasha. Such a wee baby to have such a tough disease.
We also have HCM (advanced) and this is exactly our situation - just as I feared. Because finding the right balance of meds (enough to remove fluid, but not too much to cause kidney problems) is so tricky, they want to see him all the time (it's not something that can be done locally b/c of the testing equipment needed). When I was doing the check out on the phone (my DH picked him up), they said they wanted him back in a week or two for another battery of tests. If he was in pain or suffering, I wouldn't struggle with this at all, but he seems so healthy and happy. No outward signs of pain, eating well, looking for cuddles - his usual fabulous self. If I put him down, I'll feel like a cold hearted killer, even though this disease is terminal and it's only a matter of time. On the other hand, while my DH is being very supportive, I can tell he feels that we've cost the line in terms of reasonableness. He likes animals, but did not grow up in a "pet" family, so he doesn't really get it. I know he'll let me do what I need and I want, but I want to be respectful to him as well.
I think I'm going to try with the new meds and do another follow up to make sure the dosage is ok for the kidneys. If he has another significant episode, I think that will be the end of the road. Ugh. Makes me sick to think of that.
Thanks for your stories - I know they are not easy to tell. But it is heartwarming to read about all the special pets everyone has/had in their lives. They are truly so amazing, which I guess is why it's so hard to let them go. :cry:
Posted By: PeggyCThe worst thing about having a cat with cardiomyopathy is that the tests never end. My Sasha has this, which has now reached the stage where she has an irregular heart rhythm, and when we went through the first round of tests, to the tune of thousands, and then the first and second emergency runs to Animal Emergency and Referral Associates (another few thousands) we went back to our regular vet, who kept recommending we go to this other vet or that cardiologist for further tests every few months to see where she was by that time, in order to adjust her medications.
Peggy C - so sorry to hear about your Sasha. Such a wee baby to have such a tough disease.
We also have HCM (advanced) and this is exactly our situation - just as I feared. Because finding the right balance of meds (enough to remove fluid, but not too much to cause kidney problems) is so tricky, they want to see him all the time (it's not something that can be done locally b/c of the testing equipment needed). When I was doing the check out on the phone (my DH picked him up), they said they wanted him back in a week or two for another battery of tests. If he was in pain or suffering, I wouldn't struggle with this at all, but he seems so healthy and happy. No outward signs of pain, eating well, looking for cuddles - his usual fabulous self. If I put him down, I'll feel like a cold hearted killer, even though this disease is terminal and it's only a matter of time. On the other hand, while my DH is being very supportive, I can tell he feels that we've cost the line in terms of reasonableness. He likes animals, but did not grow up in a "pet" family, so he doesn't really get it. I know he'll let me do what I need and I want, but I want to be respectful to him as well.
I think I'm going to try with the new meds and do another follow up to make sure the dosage is ok for the kidneys. If he has another significant episode, I think that will be the end of the road. Ugh. Makes me sick to think of that.
Thanks for your stories - I know they are not easy to tell. But it is heartwarming to read about all the special pets everyone has/had in their lives. They are truly so amazing, which I guess is why it's so hard to let them go. :cry:
Apr 6, 2009 at 6:55pm Edited
Unfortunately, I can now chime in on this. My sweet cat Algebra died two Fridays ago. We spent the past few weeks treating her to all the love and Fancy Feast she wanted. She had started interacting with the dog which was an unexpected plus but it was a short but sweet time we had when we could hang with the dog and the cat together! Sadly, she went downhill very quickly and in a few days she couldn't stand and was hiding and not eating. While it was tough, the vet agreed it was her "time" and she was hugged and loved till the end. I know we made the right decision at the right time.
I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty, Algebra. Always a difficult thing to do
Oh, Algebra2, I'm SO sorry... it's awful to lose a pet you've had for a long time. My condolences.
New2, I know exactly how you feel. Fortunately, in terms of making decisions on how long to keep trying (and paying) my husband is right on the same page with me. We are both horrified by the bills, but we are much too attached to Sasha to stop doing it as long as she has a good quality of life between the crises, and as long as the crises are reasonably far apart. She has had two emergency episodes with congestive heart failure over the past two years or so.
It's interesting to note that although I did grow up with a lot of pets, times have really changed when it comes to these things. People now are much more likely to treat their animals as if they were children, paying any amount of money to keep them healthy and alive. Must be a great time to be a vet, really. Where a family a couple of decades ago would have let a pet "take its chances," now that same family's kids will pay thousands on vet visits and treatment to extend the life of a dog with cancer, or a cat with HCM.
For me, as long as she has a good life most of the time, we will keep going. But it will get tougher if the episodes get closer together or become more severe. The last time, she was in the hospital for three days. But now she seems just like her sweet, sassy, dopey self. Where do we draw the line, and how will we know when the time comes? I have no idea.
New2, I know exactly how you feel. Fortunately, in terms of making decisions on how long to keep trying (and paying) my husband is right on the same page with me. We are both horrified by the bills, but we are much too attached to Sasha to stop doing it as long as she has a good quality of life between the crises, and as long as the crises are reasonably far apart. She has had two emergency episodes with congestive heart failure over the past two years or so.
It's interesting to note that although I did grow up with a lot of pets, times have really changed when it comes to these things. People now are much more likely to treat their animals as if they were children, paying any amount of money to keep them healthy and alive. Must be a great time to be a vet, really. Where a family a couple of decades ago would have let a pet "take its chances," now that same family's kids will pay thousands on vet visits and treatment to extend the life of a dog with cancer, or a cat with HCM.
For me, as long as she has a good life most of the time, we will keep going. But it will get tougher if the episodes get closer together or become more severe. The last time, she was in the hospital for three days. But now she seems just like her sweet, sassy, dopey self. Where do we draw the line, and how will we know when the time comes? I have no idea.
I really, really understand your predicament. I had a cat for 17 years which and we tried to keep him alive with a chronic condition for about a year and a half. It was terribly diffcult and expensive, and at the end we just had to put him to sleep as he started to go blind, have multiple organ failure, etc. It was devastating as he was clearly suffering and miserable. Had I know this would be the outcome I would have never gone down this path. When I grew up - our parents had a completely different view -they thought that unless a pet could be cured or kept alive with minimally invasive/expensive treatment then it was simply time for them to go. We are advocates for our pets - they can't express pain or discomfort the way humans can. I don't think pets are good candidates for heart operations, chemo, etc, etc. But that's just my opinion.
I have two new cats now and I will handle things very differently when the time comes - I will never let an animal suffer like that again OR be taken in by vets who promise miracles.
It is your decision ultimately but either one (euthanasia or treatment) will be out of caring for your pet - and in that respect you will be making the right decision.
I have two new cats now and I will handle things very differently when the time comes - I will never let an animal suffer like that again OR be taken in by vets who promise miracles.
It is your decision ultimately but either one (euthanasia or treatment) will be out of caring for your pet - and in that respect you will be making the right decision.
Luckily, like Peggy said, my husband I were on the same page. For us, keeping alive an old sick cat wasn't something we were going to do. Financially and emotionally - it wasn't an option. Now, if I felt one way and he felt another - heads would've rolled.
A couple of years ago, my dog was discovered with an advanced cancerous tumor. I listened to what it would take to go the chemo route - from driving her a long distance a few times a week for treatment, the cost, how it would weaken her, and that there was no guarantee it wouldn't come back. This is a dog that has to be dragged to the vet and trembles from the moment she gets in the door. I listened to the other choice, to have the tumor removed and see if it came back. The vet thought it probably would. I decided that was the way to go. Now, at 16, the dog is an old dog, but healthy, and takes no medication. We're very lucky.
Algebra2 - sorry! The death of a loved pet is so wrenchingly (I know, not a word) difficult...
Must have been especially hard on your little boy.
Must have been especially hard on your little boy.
Hi all,
I wanted to come back and thank you for all your comments and stories. Unfortunately, we had to put our darling Mao down yesterday. It was a difficult decision, but that morning I knew it was the right one.
RIP - Mao
I wanted to come back and thank you for all your comments and stories. Unfortunately, we had to put our darling Mao down yesterday. It was a difficult decision, but that morning I knew it was the right one.
RIP - Mao
What a strange, beautiful creature! You have my sympathies and thoughts today. You gave Mao a good life and I'm sure he appreciated it and loved you back.
I'm so sorry - it must have been so difficult to make that decision.
Ditto to what crazy_quilter said.
Ditto to what crazy_quilter said.
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Where would you draw the line? He's my cat and my responsibility and I don't want to give up on him, but to see the hardships people are going through right now and it feels irresponsible to pour this much money into an old, sick cat when it could do so much more for humans.
Ugh, I'm going to cry... again.