Excessive punishment for teacher-student sex

http://www.nj.com/middlesex/index.ssf/2015/07/catholic_school_teacher_charged_with_having_sex_wi.html

The teacher is being held without bail. Why do that? Is she really a threat to society?

I am not convinced that prison is all that worthwhile in these cases. The teacher loses their job, loses their teaching license and suffers public humiliation. In many of the cases I have read about, the teacher seems to have other issues as well.

So, whose interests are served by sending these teachers to prison? And don't say deterrence because deterrence is not working.

Dunno. Maybe she's a flight risk for some reason. I'll be shocked if she does an hour of prison time after conviction, but if she does, it's because raping children is illegal.

RobB said:
Dunno. Maybe she's a flight risk for some reason. I'll be shocked if she does an hour of prison time after conviction, but if she does, it's because raping children is illegal.

Every case is different, but in more than a few, the sex is consensual in fact although not in law.

IANAL, but I don't think a student can consent to sex with a teacher any more than a prisoner can consent to sex with a guard.

Tjohn, would you feel the same way if this was a male teacher and female student?

The fact is, that even if the teacher is 25 and the student is 17, and even if they wind up later married for 40 years, while the student is in school and/or under age, the teacher must act as "the adult," not to mention "the authority," and wait. Teachers know this. If they go ahead and act in contravention, sometimes it's very sad (I'm recalling one truly exceptional teacher lost to CHS, and probably to secondary teaching in general), but they can't be surprised.

Catholic school teacher=no union. Probably makes $11.00 per hour, Wouldn't have money for bail anyway.

That about sums it up.

FilmCarp said:
Tjohn, would you feel the same way if this was a male teacher and female student?

I am sure I have a double standard.

Red_Barchetta said:
Catholic school teacher=no union. Probably makes $11.00 per hour, Wouldn't have money for bail anyway.
That about sums it up.

Seems crazy - being held without bail. Some murderers get less.

tjohn said:

FilmCarp said:
Tjohn, would you feel the same way if this was a male teacher and female student?

I am sure I have a double standard.

I catch myself with that as well.

Saw some speculation in comments that the lack of bail could be due to lack of an attorney and she might end up with a bail hearing after a public defender is appointed.

Along the same lines there's this from yesterday's Daily News Opinions:

Taking advanage of what?
Brooklyn: Really: Attractive female teacher Jennifer Fichter just got sentenced for having sex with three very eager students? (“Florida ex-teacher gets 22 years in prison for having sex with three students,” NYDailyNews.com, July 3). Enough with this madness. You kill people while drunk and get probation for “affluenza,” but make love to 17-year-olds and go to prison?
We taxpayers are shelling out enormous sums to house and feed these “criminals” for what they did to “victims” who were 100% willing, had the time of their lives and boasted to all their friends about it. Calling this rape is a disgrace to real rape victims. Our politicians and the crooked district attorneys need to stop putting on witch hunts for headlines and attention. (A few are probably jealous, too!)

There is no comparison between older women hitting on younger men and older men taking advantage of younger gals. I have not once heard a woman say, “Where was that male teacher when I was in high school?” and I have almost never seen any man not say, “Where was that female teacher when I was in high school?” I wish I had been “taken advantage of” by female teachers as a teen. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. Otherwise, they’d be fighting to make almost all sex illegal, since it’s often someone “taking advantage” of someone who is drunk, lonely, on the rebound or just reckless.

I have a feeling the Daily News Opinions would feel different about a male teacher and "willing" male student.

Or, just two adult gay men.

Okay, that's probably not fair. But can't I just send my sons to high school without worrying about their teacher (of any gender) trying to bang them and getting defended by the community

Red_Barchetta said:
Catholic school teacher=no union. Probably makes $11.00 per hour, Wouldn't have money for bail anyway.
That about sums it up.

I taught at a Catholic school for 25 years and was a member of the union the whole time. Just about everyone on the faculty was. We didn't make public-school salaries, but we did all right.

RobB said:
I have a feeling the Daily News Opinions would feel different about a male teacher and "willing" male student.
Or, just two adult gay men.
Okay, that's probably not fair. But can't I just send my sons to high school without worrying about their teacher (of any gender) trying to bang them and getting defended by the community

Not defending them. A teacher who does this absolutely should be fired. I was questioning the value or point of sending them to prison.

Get 'em out of the school system. Fine them. Community service.

What is the cost to taxpayers for prison time? Are they likely to repeat the offense without a license to get back into the school?

How would you feel if it was your son with whom the teacher had sex? Would you say "oh it'll make a man of him?" What if it affected his relationships with women for the rest of his life? What if a male teacher had sex with your seventeen year old daughter? I bet you would want him in jail for the rest of his life.

Teachers are in a position of trust. They are supposed to reach our children, not have sex with them.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:
Get 'em out of the school system. Fine them. Community service.
What is the cost to taxpayers for prison time? Are they likely to repeat the offense without a license to get back into the school?

I'd just like to point out that this is slightly less severe than the punishment for a teacher caught stealing and reselling toner cartridges.

At what age student does it go from the teacher/student "having sex" to the teacher raping/molesting the student?

I'm going to guess that you'd think this teacher should do jail time f the kid was five. What about six? Seven? Twelve? Where do you think they should draw the line and stop sending the teacher to jail?

tjohn said:

FilmCarp said:
Tjohn, would you feel the same way if this was a male teacher and female student?

I am sure I have a double standard.

The cases that caught my eye were those where the student was a senior close to graduation and the femal teacher in question seemed to have more than a few problems of their own. So, of course, they must be fired. I just don't see how prison time is good for anybody involved.

.

NJ age of consent is 16, so this is not a case of underaged youth. OTOH, is there a question of abuse of authority? coersion

Apollo_T said:
NJ age of consent is 16, so this is not a case of underaged youth. OTOH, is there a question of abuse of authority? coersion

It is unquestionably an inappropriate relationship and firing the teacher in these cases is more than warranted. As to the question of abuse of authority or coercion, each case is different. While it is always an abuse of authority by definition, it could be a non-coercive relationship.

tjohn said:

Apollo_T said:
NJ age of consent is 16, so this is not a case of underaged youth. OTOH, is there a question of abuse of authority? coersion

It is unquestionably an inappropriate relationship and firing the teacher in these cases is more than warranted. As to the question of abuse of authority or coercion, each case is different. While it is always an abuse of authority by definition, it could be a non-coercive relationship.

Agree 100%. The fact we have a law that asserts 100% coercion based on teacher-student, even when said student has only scant contact with teacher inside a classroom, and when the ages imply consent otherwise, is heinous. I appreciate your courage in starting this thread. It is absolutely the case some of these 17-year-olds are the aggressors, are fully adults and know exactly what they are doing.

The biggest complication is that I would hate the set the stage for a situation where lawyers would examine the motive and intent of the student in each because for those students who really are coerced, being dissected by a lawyer would be really unpleasant. In any case, unless it can be shown that the teacher was forceful or mentally manipulative, I don't really think prison is warranted.

Wrong. 17 having sex with his/her adult teacher does NOT know what s/he is doing. Adult teacher is not merely being "inappropriate" in such contact. Adult teacher is committing a crime in such contact.

breal said:
Wrong. 17 having sex with his/her adult teacher does NOT know what s/he is doing. Adult teacher is not merely being "inappropriate" in such contact. Adult teacher is committing a crime in such contact.

Never said some sort of punishment should not be handed down. I am just questioning the point of prison time in certain situations.

I think breal is addressing coneheads.

Breal +1. I also loved the question re: same-sex relationships. Good litmus.

She may be being held without bail because she's considered a flight risk. I read (don't remember where unfortunately) that she had some sort of traumatic brain injury to her frontal lobe, which was treated by having a shunt surgicaly implanted in her brain. Frontal lobe injuries have been known to cause uncontrollable sexual desire and irrational acting out.

Not sure if I buy this argument by her attorney. If this is a known result/risk of this type of treatment, seems she should still be out on disability, not back in the classroom.

But there it is.