Can a house be too clean?

One of my siblings is married to a germophobe and their home is extremely clean.  In fact, they have one full time live in cleaning person/nanny, another who comes three days a week, another live in just hired and the germophobe in question, is pretty much walking in circles cleaning anytime they are home.

When we walk into their home we feel like we are in a Four Seasons hotel or fancy restaurant.  While wealth is a big part of this we are increasingly concerned with the spouses mental health ( gets very angry when thinks things are dirty) and the effect of it all on my nieces and nephews. 

As a parent to a child with OCD, I am convinced the spouse has it and it seems to be getting worse.  It also seems to be having a tremendous impact on my sibling who is constantly worried things are not good enough and evaluating experiences based on perceived filth.   

The children have been bathed every single day of their lives and taught that most places they go out into the world are dirty and that they need to be abruptly cleaned upon return.  And these are not children allowed to play at local playgrounds and the like.  The youngest, still a baby is bathed most days twice was not taken outside the home except for Drs visits for several months for fear of exposure to germs.  Even now, exposure to the outside world is limited.  

All of the children, my sibling and the spouse are constantly sick.  Strep, breathing problems, coughs, colds, ear infections, stomach viruses, hospital stays for bronchitis.   (The hospitals are "excessively dirty" btw) 

All this illness in turn causes them to clean more and more.  The older kids are in school so of course, getting sick and bringing home germs is part of the deal but they do seem to get way sicker and more frequently than anyone we know.  

Maybe I am just trying to make my own dirty home & family feel better, but we are sick maybe once or twice a year to their 9-10 times each! 

They are not people who would take well to suggesting seeing someone regarding the mental health issue and I fear bringing up the dirt/ immunity thing might lead to anger and them thinking we are just jealous of their lifestyle - eeek.  

Should we just mind our own business?  

It does sound like a mental disorder, but it also sounds like they won't be willing to listen to your concerns.  It sounds like your sibling is not the germophobe, but is starting to buy into the mindset? If so, maybe talk to them separately about this?  

I agree with spontaneous. It's particularly concerning that the whole family is sick all the time. It's possible their natural resistance is undermined by the obsessive cleaning, but I don't know whether that is a real "thing" or not. A doctor would know more. But it does depend on someone (your sibling) being willing to hear your concern.

You might suggest to your sibling that germs are actually needed. Obviously this situation is causing you distress. To the extent that it affects you...eg, makes you uncomfortable visiting, sad to see the children living in such a prison, you share your concerns with your sibling. Maybe one day your sibling will have had enough and challenge the spouse.

Not only is it causing you distress, it also seems to be distressing to your sibling. It would be like living in a state of siege. My husband's sister and her husband are both compulsive cleaners... So much so that I am afraid to have them come to stay with us for fear of the "judging." But your family's situation is on a whole other level. 

My biggest concern is actually the children.  Not being allowed to playgrounds or to do other normal childhood things because of the constant fear of germs has to have an emotional impact on their development.

It's not natural to be in a "sterile" environment that they have created at home.  I think the lack of exposure to normal levels of bacteria, dirt, etc is undermining their immune systems.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2118871/How-keeping-children-clean-wreck-immune-systems.html

I am very distressed because my sibling is like a different person and as much as they are living a lifestyle they desired.... it's just very extreme, out of touch with the reality of the general population.  It is heartbreaking to see these kids so sick all the time.  Especially, the littlest one who has been hospitalized twice.  

I often joke when the subject of dirt comes up - I joke about my house, or my filthy but healthy kids, but it doesn't seem to lead to anything more.  

We discussed OCD a few years ago and the spouse having it (this after him trying to throw out all her baby pictures because they were cluttering a desk) ....  And while she agreed, I worry there is some fear about confronting him.  I try to share my experiences with OCD and treatments that have improved the quality of life for our child but that doesn't seem to be a gateway to conversation either.. 

Of course, I'm concerned about overstepping here and damaging my relationship. 

I also question why the pediatrician hasn't picked up on all this but having googled him, I think it's much more complicated.  

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and ideas.

It would make me nuts. I am all for a cleaner house than I have, but that kind of sterile atmosphere is impossible to live in. I have a friend whose wife was like that, and now she's gotten to the point where she doesn't want to clean because she will get the vacuum cleaner dirty. She won't let him use the range or the first floor bathroom, the living room or dining room. He is miserable but can't leave because he's used to it; they've been married for 30+ years. They too have a good deal of money so him staying is partly because of that. It's too late for him--believe me I've tried--but someone should say something. It's not the kind of disease that gets better on its own.

Yes @marylago !!  

still_life said:

All of the children, my sibling and the spouse are constantly sick.  Strep, breathing problems, coughs, colds, ear infections, stomach viruses, hospital stays for bronchitis.   (The hospitals are "excessively dirty" btw) 

Breathing problems reminded me: There are cleaners that make my lungs burn. Anything with Ammonia or Bleach odors are especially bad.

And if they have several cleaning solutions being used in the house, it's possible they are actually creating very serious toxic gasses in the home, which may be major contributors to their illnesses:

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/cleaning/tips/a32773/cleaning-products-never-mix/

still_life, I'm sorry!  This sounds like a serious and distressing problem, but given what you've said, what can you do but assure your sister of your support and try to have a happy relationship with the kids?  Unless of course it escalates to anything like abuse.

otoh, I think I'm going to use this, from marylago:  "doesn't want to clean because she will get the vacuum cleaner dirty."  Sounds like ironclad reasoning to me....

yahooyahoo said:

It's not natural to be in a "sterile" environment that they have created at home.  I think the lack of exposure to normal levels of bacteria, dirt, etc is undermining their immune systems.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2118871/How-keeping-children-clean-wreck-immune-systems.html

That is what I was thinking of. Also, I have to agree again with spontaneous that this is really not good for the children never to get to the playground. They need play time that doesn't focus on not getting dirty, and this kind of environment could keep them from learning to socialize with other kids.

Do you know the spouse's family? Are they like this, too? Or is there any way that your sibling and his family could stage a gentle intervention? I know that would be rough, but it sounds like it could be essential. Perhaps your sibling could find someone he trusts who could help her strategize.

I've read summaries of studies showing an increase in the rate of asthma as our homes have become cleaner and more sealed-in. Also have heard discussions by doctors saying that it is beneficial to a non-compromised immune system to be challenged by various organisms.

On a more anecdotal note, my grandfather always swore that "you need a few ounces of dirt a day" to stay healthy. He was born in Italy back in the 1880s, went to sea at the age of 12, survived blood poisoning from an infected fish hook mid-ocean (the ship's cook lanced his arm and stitched it back up)...Grandpa lived to be 95 years old, with all of his faculties! He didn't believe in washing all that much, would happily scavenge things he found on the street - he had a marble collection that all of his grandchildren loved to play with - I think of him often when I think about our society's emphasis on cleaning everything to extreme limits. 

Your in-law sounds as if they are overdoing the cleanliness thing, but I doubt you will be able to change their mindset or their practices. 

eta: I should add that I've had pet turtles since I was about 7 years old, grew up with a bird and then dogs as pets and have shared my home with dogs since I was in my 20s. I'm sure my immune system has been challenged by all of these critters over the years, but I've never had any disease that was attributed to any of them.

@peggyc 100% agree.  I am of the mind, playgrounds, backyards, community pools, community centers etc are essential for health-mental, social and physical growth. 

For years when we'd visit, I used to try to initiate activities that required outdoor exploration and play - occasionally they'd oblige but would be mumbling under their breaths the entire time, constantly telling their kids to not touch this or that and then they'd immediately be running home to throw kids in baths. 

I imagine if they have their own version of MOL they'd be writing about how to deal with us and our outdoorsy lifestyle and the exposure to potential germs when visiting our non sparkling clean home.  I get that we are different but it's still upsetting to watch my sibling, who was not raised this way- transform.  

I can tell that my other sibling is surprised and concerned by this situation and my parents too but neither of them would want to get involved.  My parents tend towards keeping up appearances.  

I do know the spouses parents and family and there is certainly a pattern which worries me it will now continue onto another generation.   These are people who believe they are better than others, and treat those who work for them poorly.  They believe if something is under a certain price tag, it is junk.... if something has been used more than X amount of times, it is trash.  Yes, getting the vacuum cleaner dirty is a dead on example!  I could furnish multiple apartments for those in need with the perfectly fine things I have watched them trash over the years.  So, I'm not sure an intervention could work.  My sibling was also forced to sign a pre-nup in order to get married and so there is that in play.  it's very complicated of course, but the comments and insights above are comforting.  Like it is said above, perhaps biting my tongue and being there for my sister is best so that if things escalate or she reaches a breaking point she knows she will have a support system. 

yes, actually.  there was a study that showed that kids that lived on farms and were exposed to a lot of germs had healthier immune systems.

excessive cleaning can actually damage furnishings..excessive use of anti bacterial cleaners causes bacteria to mutate and become resistant to cleaners....

this does really sound like OCD and the kids will end up with 'learned' OCD.

since your child has OCD, I assume you have a mental health provider?  I would ask to speak to them on how to approach your sibling.

*sigh*

I suspect just supporting your sister and being there for her is all you can really do. Too bad the kids' doctor hasn't asked tougher questions.

Thanks @jmitw ...  That's a great thought.  I think I really need to reach out to our psychologist .  And for my own sanity as well! 

My child's OCD manifests in other ways (certainly not obsessed with germs) but I've read enough books to know the patterns ... 

@peggyc when I googled the doc instead of finding the usual reviews , health grades etc a whole bunch of articles came up about the fancy house he has converted into his office.  Expensive furniture in sitting rooms selected by so and so interior decorator , state of the art bathrooms, "a practice that caters to the wealthiest" with American girl dolls in the waiting rooms.... 

jmitw said:

yes, actually.  there was a study that showed that kids that lived on farms and were exposed to a lot of germs had healthier immune systems.




excessive cleaning can actually damage furnishings..excessive use of anti bacterial cleaners causes bacteria to mutate and become resistant to cleaners....




this does really sound like OCD and the kids will end up with 'learned' OCD.




since your child has OCD, I assume you have a mental health provider?  I would ask to speak to them on how to approach your sibling.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/newborns_exposed_to_dirt_dander_and_germs_may_have_lower_allergy_and_asthma_risk

Well, we have quite the exact opposite problem with my sister's home and I can say her kids are VERY healthy.   In all seriousness, I don't blame you for being upset as any of these emotional/psychological issues can have a profound effect on children. Right now my sister is "eating clean" and I am also seriously worried about how her behavior with this will affect her kids.  She expresses disgust if they eat sugar or a snack or anything unhealthy and is constantly focused on her body and appearance.  She makes comments about them "getting fat".   One way we combat this stuff is by removing them from the home as much as/whenever possible and providing alternative role models.  Can you do more of that?  For example, bringing them to your home, commenting on how life is about balance and so on so they see a "healthy" attitude towards germs and dirt?