Buying a house with unpermitted renos

Hypothetically, of course, wink, sigh,  you find a great house and go under contract.   

You then find that major, recent renovations were done without permits.  Seriously major renovations.

Multiple rooms, structural, electrical, plumbing.  

How realistic to think building dept can permit this. Work without more or less pulling the walls down to inspect it all and make sure it's up to code?

Sigh... 

Was it done right?  What did your inspector say about it?

Usually it's on the sellers to take care of this.     It's on the sellers to do what they have to do to get the permits.   If you buy this house without dealing with this you could have insurance issues - the house has a fire due to unpermitted electrical work - oops - will insurance cover the loss ??   Also  you will have problems selling down the road.    The sellers realtor has to tell them to get the permits because no one will buy the house without them.  

By the way, it's always a good idea, as soon as an offer has been accepted, for the realtor to go to the town and pull all the documents and permits.  Better to find out sooner rather than later.

When we had a forensic electrician at our house in West Orange to figure out why an upstairs outlet wasn't working, he unearthed an entirely faulty and dangerous junction box in a wall in the living room. The previous owners had just capped off the wires from an old sconce and plastered over it. We had to open it, have it properly capped, then put a plate over it so we could access if needed.

The electrician told us then that if we had had a fire because of that bad work, insurance would NOT have covered it, because we "should have known about it" and the fire would have been considered to be our responsibility, even though we didn't know it was there and the previous owners had done the work themselves without a permit.

I would be very, very careful about a situation like that.

We run into this all the time with "flip" houses. Horrific work done without permits. Drains installed with no vents, sloppy Pex pipe run in freeze zones. It's often more expensive to correct this stuff than doing it right the first time.

There can be heavy fines for the seller and it is his responsibility to get permits and either correct it or get a licensed contractor to sign off that the work was done to code before he can sell. 

Something that most smart contractors will take a pass on, and you're right, the bldg. dept can make you pull down walls, break open basement floors etc. if they want.

The truth be told, in my experience, I have found both sides of problem over the years.  Working in my 'closed' Handyman business I was often involved in some 'clean-up' work before and after folks put the house on the market.

And I have seen jobs where Major work was done and was told that no permits were ever filed.  I did what I was asked to do, as long as it was legal and that was it.  During the sale the problem was never found, Either the records were not detail enough to cause the problem to surface and the house inspector must have been blind.  So the sale went thru. ( I still have photos of some things I have come across and you would never believe to be true.)

Then I have seen the other.  Non-permitted work, or work with open but never closed permits was identified.  In some cases the inspectors came out and looked around and closed things out.  In some cases I was called out to open walls so that inspections and corrections could be made.

The only time I ever saw a required removal was for a room add-on that was built on a sagging stacked cinder block foundation with no footing, re-bar or grout.  That was a total tear off and down to the ground.

I'd like to add that things have improved.  I just sold a home in Maplewood.  I purchased it back in 2007.  Full inspections, full records searches and all was good at my closing.

I just sold it, and, the Twp. found an open Plumbing permit from before I owned the house, and the Title company found a Judgement filed against the Deed, again from before I owned the house.  So Record searches are getting better.

Oh, my crack Sales team of Realtor and Attorney were quick to do what it took to research and close both items and my sale was not impacted.

So, the impact could be very little or very large, depends on the stars.  

My suggestion, if you or your friend have any control over this, now is the time to start working to get it solved when you have time and are not pressed to get some work done to meet a close date or lose the sale.  Prices get higher when things are last minute.

Later, 

Da

The UPS Store

George 

I just saw Plungy's post.  He is correct, and I think I first met him on a 'fix for sale' job.  I think I met Phil on a job where I had to Jack Hammer up a basement floor where someone installed a bathroom in the basement, without permits.  That was a Sh**ty job. (Or may be that was Ronnie?)

If you take title to the house, you then "own" everything that has been done to it.  So, if anything was done improperly, it's now yours to deal with.  Whether that means a lower sale price in the future, potential repairs to remedy bad work or absolutely nothing at all  - you may end up living there the rest of your life with no problems at all.

Just because work was done without permits doesn't mean it was done incorrectly.  But what incentive are you getting for taking this potential risk?

And just to echo George's comments; your Realtor and attorney are crucial in this transaction.  You need to have deep faith they are seriously committed to your best interests and not to just closing a transaction.

Going through the house with the home inspector there were things so obvious (to me as well, a seasoned reno person), and less obvious (non grounded GFCIs in bathrooms for example), that I wondered right away if this work was done via permit. 

I believe the master bath will need to be nearly fully rebuilt - not only is the shower pan deflecting (and water underneath), the tub is installed incorrectly with multiple stupidities and code issues.

So - yes, it really concerns me about what I can't see.   I hope the building inspectors will want many of the walls and ceilings opened up to check for insulation, structure, plumbing, electric.  

Have requested list of all permits (open and closed) and violations from the town.  Because there is other major work (boiler, water heater) -- that has no inspection stickers on it.  

I'll stick with this for a bit... but...   thanks all.

@PeggyC -- how does one find a forensic electrician?  and @Plungy is there such a thing as a forensic plumber?  Isn't the only way to truly know what was done to open walls?

That's a new term to me also Pete. I think with electrical it may be easier to test for things like polarity or lack of grounding without opening walls.

 I think the best any plumber can do is eyeball things and take his best guess as to how the job was done. 

We saw one on a flip recently where every time the washing machine in the basement discharged all the water in the powder room toilet got sucked dry. Guess what...no vents anywhere. We would look for things like this. 

 Maybe stick a fiber op camera in the wall, but that has limited effectiveness also.

Any licensee who signs off on the job would be also putting themselves in jeopardy if future problems arose as far as I can tell.

"and less obvious (non grounded GFCIs in bathrooms for example)"

To be fair, things fail.

My house, I had two GFCI's installed and tested.  The Twp. inspector tested them as well and I passed all.

Eight years ago I moved out and the house became a rental.  I did my clean up, paint and fixed a few things, but during the Buyer inspection an un-grounded GFCI was found.  One of the ones I had installed.

My electrician came out and checked it.  Found that all the wires were good, just the GFCI unit went bad. Replaced it.  All good.

Soooo... things can just break as well.

Later,

Da

George

I'm not sure what a forensic electrician is.  But  when the property warranted it, I have had CEES electric come in and do an electrical inspection.  On several houses, when looking for knob and tube wiring, they have unscrewed every single electric fixture, light fixture, and wall plate  (one at a time)  to check what's behind.   They are not cheap and their electrical inspection may not be called for in every house, but in the instances that I have used them they have been well worth it.  They are really good. http://cees.us.com/ 

I can tell you based on my parents experience. Their own fault because the never got permits (however the work was 30+ years ago and all done by my dad). Added a bedroom and bath, finished a basement, something with the garage. When they wanted to sell a few years ago, they had all kinds of issues with stuff not being to code. They had to fix some things, permit all and their taxes doubled. So, can have serious implications especially if you go to sell.

conandrob240, just jogged a memory cell.  When I lived in California, 80's I filed the permit requests to install an in-ground swimming pool thru a national pool construction company.  Bam.  The Plot plan indicted that the foot print of my house that I had owned for 5 years did not match the records filed in Los Angeles. Inspections found a 25 + year old two story room addition that did not meet property set-back requirements and had no permit on file to exist.

We were required to remove the entire thing, foundations and all.  After the cost of that, I could not afford the swimming pool and lost a bedroom for my son and a game room.

True bummer.

Later, Da

George

Yikes! My parents wasn't that bad but they almost had to remove the garage. They went to court and got a waiver of some kind.

Sarahzm, that's what he told us his job was (forensic electrician). My understanding is they are trained to find the source when there is an electrical fire. According to something I just read online, they are concerned with "investigating electrical failures and accidents in a legal context."

So -- anyone know how to navigate the NJ building code online -- and exactly where is the definition of something beyond "ordinary repair?"     

The line I'm getting back is that these were ordinary repairs -- right: new windows, walls, tile, vanitys, shower, tubs, toilets, electric, etc.

thx!

Did you go to town hall and request all the permits yourself? 

Pete, I'd move on from this house.

I'd run and not look back.

I agree. Walk away before you get in too deep. 

"Forensic Electrician"!

Will wonders never cease?

@peteglider, not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I found this helpful:

http://www.twp.maplewood.nj.us/DocumentCenter/Home/View/275

Many of the items you mention absolutely require permits. As soon as you said "new windows," I got worried. As others have already said, I think you should walk away from this house. Too risky.

make sure it is in your contract that  you cant close on house until all permits are pulled and paid for.  I know Maplewood does retro the permits as I have heard of buyers after purchasing and living in house having to pay to get the structure up to code which includes demolition  fixing and all the permits.   So just be really careful

There are some things I can see inspecting after they are done, such as the new windows. But what can be done regarding electrical and plumbing renovations? Those are all closed back up in the walls. Would the town require the current owner to open the walls up to show the work to inspectors? That's the only way you could know it was done right.

When I was so much younger (ha!), first house, finished the basement with a family room and office. A few years when it came time to sell, a buyer asked for permits.

To get permits had to open up 18" or so of walls at floor And ceiling, and parts of the ceiling along the perimeter of the rooms.  Some things had to be changed to meet code, then of course the walls were fixed and painted.   It was a big ouch.  

A lesson learned for me.   So I know it can be fixed.  Difference is that I was a skilled DIYr, and had overseen all the work by the contractor when the work was first done, so I knew it wasn't "wrong". Still some fire stopping wasn't adequate etc.  

But these bathrooms - I have no clue what's in the floors and walls.   Sigh.

Again, thanks all...will converse with town code and my lawyer in the next couple days then make a decision.

No need to walk away yet.   Insist the sellers have all work, no matter how old, get inspected and permitted.   If the work passes inspection you are OK.   

If they refuse, then you should consider withdrawing.

I would have serious reservations about doing that... wouldn't it mean you have to take their word for what work was done? What's to stop them from conveniently not mentioning something that's hidden in the walls?

Wait, you need a permit and inspection when you replace windows?!?! Seriously? What for?