Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. Humanitarian Act or Big Scam?

Nancy

I vote for scam.  


The Magnitsky Act, based on testimony by Bill Browder and signed by Obama in 2012, has been seen as the act that reignited the Cold War.  Both Democrats and Republicans and the mainstream news have presented Browder as a credible, anti-Putin human rights advocate trying to get justice for his "lawyer" Serge Magnitsky, who he claimed was investigating financial crimes in Russia.  However, the story has some obvious holes, including Browder's own testimony to Congress where he admitted that Magnitsky was an accountant, not a lawyer.

This is also related to the famous meeting at Trump Tower with Trump Jr. and a supposed Russian operative, named Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was really there to talk about Browder's crimes.  

This video goes in to detail about the case.  It's long, but a lot of information is given out at the beginning. There is also a movie about the case, made by an anti-Putin filmmaker, but Browder has made sure it is banned in the US.  



drummerboy

Hmm,

should I spend 90 minutes watching that video, or Flash Gordon:Spaceship to the Unknown (playing now on Comet TV!)


tjohn

Of course, the real question is to what extent or when should we meddle in the domestic affairs off other countries?  We seem to have gone from the extreme of doing nothing when Hitler was coming to power to the current situation where we but our nose into the affairs of Venezuela and Russia and many other countries.  Honestly, if N.Korea wants to enslave its own people or Russia wants to be corrupt and homphobic, it really isn't my concern.  We can't even police domestic violence effectively.  Why would anybody think we can handle the international equivalent.


drummerboy
tjohn said:
Of course, the real question is to what extent or when should we meddle in the domestic affairs off other countries?  We seem to have gone from the extreme of doing nothing when Hitler was coming to power to the current situation where we but our nose into the affairs of Venezuela and Russia and many other countries.  Honestly, if N.Korea wants to enslave its own people or Russia wants to be corrupt and homphobic, it really isn't my concern.  We can't even police domestic violence effectively.  Why would anybody think we can handle the international equivalent.

 I don't quite see how the Magnitsky Act is "meddling". I mean, maybe it is, but it's not obvious to me.


Nancy
drummerboy said:
Hmm,
should I spend 90 minutes watching that video, or Flash Gordon:Spaceship to the Unknown (playing now on Comet TV!)

 You can just spend around 30 for most of it.  They end up going off on to other related topics, you might not want to hear--like the future of the US petrodollar.  It's a good conversation.  I really like the Garland Nixon guy.  He's a Progressive that used to be a Democrat.  He has a  couple of radio shows, including one he does daily with a Trump supporter.  It's very interesting to hear their perspective on the news.  The other guy, Jarmal Thomas is really sharp, but I have never posted his videos because he tends to meander too much and I know the MOL audience can't even stand Jimmy Dore, who is funny and entertaining. In this video Garland keeps Jarmal on track and it's a good discussion.  You will learn a lot, I think, although usually you don't think you do so who knows. Better than Flash, for sure.


Nancy
tjohn said:
Of course, the real question is to what extent or when should we meddle in the domestic affairs off other countries?  We seem to have gone from the extreme of doing nothing when Hitler was coming to power to the current situation where we but our nose into the affairs of Venezuela and Russia and many other countries.  Honestly, if N.Korea wants to enslave its own people or Russia wants to be corrupt and homphobic, it really isn't my concern.  We can't even police domestic violence effectively.  Why would anybody think we can handle the international equivalent.

 I think the CIA meddles in way too many countries and it is not needed, and ignores human rights abuses in countries that it likes, but this video is about Bill Browder, a guy who it seems posed as a humanitarian to avoid capture and ended up getting the US so much on his side they imposed Russian sanctions.  There is a movie, but we are not allowed to see it.  Eventually, there will be another movie, but it might be many years down the road. It's a very strange story.


nohero

So this thread means that "HIllary hatred" can morph into "Why are you being so mean to Vladimir and his buddies?"

I don't care if Magnitsky is a dead accountant, or a dead lawyer.  The operative word is "dead", and there are people in Russia responsible for that.


Nancy
nohero said:
So this thread means that "HIllary hatred" can morph into "Why are you being so mean to Vladimir and his buddies?"
I don't care if Magnitsky is a dead accountant, or a dead lawyer.  The operative word is "dead", and there are people in Russia responsible for that.

 No, this thread is about a possible scam by an oligarch that may have fooled the US into protecting him, while reigniting the cold war.  Watch some of the video.  They get right to the point so you don't have to watch much.


DaveSchmidt
nan said:

The other guy, Jarmal Thomas is really sharp, but I have never posted his videos because he tends to meander too much and I know the MOL audience can't even stand Jimmy Dore, who is funny and entertaining. 

You posted one of his videos on July 19 in the “May I Question ....?” discussion. But it’s understandable how one might lose track. 


Nancy
DaveSchmidt said:


nan said:

The other guy, Jarmal Thomas is really sharp, but I have never posted his videos because he tends to meander too much and I know the MOL audience can't even stand Jimmy Dore, who is funny and entertaining. 
You posted one of his videos on July 19 in the “May I Question ....?” discussion. But it’s understandable how one might lose track. 

 OK, I checked and you are right, but I only posted him as one of three examples of people discussing Joe Lieberman.  It was not a video I expected people to watch and comment on since we were talking in general about Leiberman.  Jarmal is good though on many topics--very detailed.   


DaveSchmidt

And if I may: It’s Jamarl, not Jarmal. In case anyone is searching for more of his videos.


Nancy
DaveSchmidt said:
And if I may: It’s Jamarl, not Jarmal. In case anyone is searching for more of his videos.

 Right, I need new glasses (next week hopefully) and here is a link to his page on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamarl31/videos

Just saw he had one this week about a secret message from Aasad to Putin.  Wondering what that is about.  He can be kinda quirky.


tjohn
nan said:

  Jarmal is good though on many topics--very detailed.   

 Conspiracy theories are nothing if not detailed.


Nancy
tjohn said:


nan said:  Jarmal is good though on many topics--very detailed.   

 Conspiracy theories are nothing if not detailed.

 Just watch the video first before commenting, OK. Garland Nixon presents most of the information. He's an ex-law enforcement person and smells BS a mile away.


Tom

Wait a minute, who is banning movies in the U.S.?


Nancy
tom said:
Wait a minute, who is banning movies in the U.S.?

 Browder did what he could with lawyers to keep the film, "The Magnitsky Act: Behind The Scenes" from being shown.  It was eventually shown once at a US museum.  Here is an interview with the film maker explaining the ban:

https://www.real.video/5811850725001

The film also seems to be available now on the real.video site: https://www.real.video/5811804296001

But I don't know anything about that site and if it is legal or what.  I watched a few minutes of it and it seems to be the real movie.  

This is the description beneath the movie:

"This is a must watch documentary that has been banned in the western world.

Despite all the threats of lawsuits and physical intimidation which hedge fund executive William Browder brought to bear over the past couple of months to ensure that a remarkable investigative film about the so-called Magnitsky case would not be screened anywhere, it was shown privately in a museum of journalism in Washington, D.C. but has otherwise been banned."


Dave

So the Streisand effect applies to everything except this movie.  Got it.


Nancy
dave said:
So the Streisand effect applies to everything except this movie.  Got it.

 No, I think it might be happening here too.  It's now available on line, although I don't know how long that link will be there.  Don't think that link has been there long. When I first learned of that movie, it was not to seen anywhere.  People are starting to talk about it. Watch the first video I posted in the thread for the history.  The topic here is Bill Browder, not the movie though.


nohero
nohero said:
So this thread means that "HIllary hatred" can morph into "Why are you being so mean to Vladimir and his buddies?"
I don't care if Magnitsky is a dead accountant, or a dead lawyer.  The operative word is "dead", and there are people in Russia responsible for that.

 


drummerboy
tjohn said:


nan said:  Jarmal is good though on many topics--very detailed.   

 Conspiracy theories are nothing if not detailed.

 and quirky


tjohn

It must be comforting, in a way, to live in the world of Nan and Paul Surovell where everything can be explained by conspiracy.  The real world where **** happens as a result of various competing societel forces is a far scarier place.  Sometimes I wish I believed that a handful of people huddled in the backroom of some secret building actual were in control.


DaveSchmidt

Along those lines, a longtime national security reporter’s take on the deep state:

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/08/16/comey-hayden-clapper-witch-hunters/


nohero
DaveSchmidt said:
Along those lines, a longtime national security reporter’s take on the deep state:
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/08/16/comey-hayden-clapper-witch-hunters/

 Closing paragraph says it all_

"If we see another season when high crimes are charged against a president, the likeliest count will again be obstruction of justice, again regarding a break-in at Democratic headquarters, again with the FBI working—this time with Mueller as chief investigator and Comey as his star witness—to bring the president to justice. The power of secret information gathered by American intelligence and made public in Congress or a court of law may be his downfall. We may then see proof that what afflicts us is not a deep state but a shallow and corrupted government."


ml1

with regard to some folks' continued insistence that all of the accusations against Russia are phony pretexts for restarting the Cold War, I have to wonder why these shadowy actors need these conspiracies at all.  It's not as though the warmongers need much to hype a threat -- North Korea and Iran come to mind.  And Russia has such a large nuclear arsenal, it would seem there isn't a need to go through these convoluted actions to hype a threat.  The American people generally don't need much of a nudge to approve expanded military budgets and bellicose rhetoric from its leaders.

And the notion that a "deep state" is targeting Trump because he might pursue peace is dubious.  Taken as a whole, Trump's actions toward Europe, NATO, and Russia don't logically lead toward peace or disarmament.  Demanding that all NATO nations arm themselves more heavily isn't a recipe for peace between Russia and the West.  And it's not logically a recipe for U.S. disarmament.

As I've noted many times before it's very possible for it to be BOTH true that there are intelligence and military leaders itching for another Cold War AND that Trump is seriously compromised by Russian sources.


RealityForAll
ml1 said:
with regard to some folks' continued insistence that all of the accusations against Russia are phony pretexts for restarting the Cold War, I have to wonder why these shadowy actors need these conspiracies at all.  It's not as though the warmongers need much to hype a threat -- North Korea and Iran come to mind.  And Russia has such a large nuclear arsenal, it would seem there isn't a need to go through these convoluted actions to hype a threat.  The American people generally don't need much of a nudge to approve expanded military budgets and bellicose rhetoric from its leaders.
And the notion that a "deep state" is targeting Trump because he might pursue peace is dubious.  Taken as a whole, Trump's actions toward Europe, NATO, and Russia don't logically lead toward peace or disarmament.  Demanding that all NATO nations arm themselves more heavily isn't a recipe for peace between Russia and the West.  And it's not logically a recipe for U.S. disarmament.
As I've noted many times before it's very possible for it to be BOTH true that there are intelligence and military leaders itching for another Cold War AND that Trump is seriously compromised by Russian sources.

 Agreed as to the possibility of both being true.


Nancy

17 posts and not one person has bothered to comment on the topic.  DaveSchmidt, are you just too lazy to open your own thread?  Do you think I run a thread opening business?  Kinda rude to just assume that your piece relates and to take over my thread.  

Anyway, this thread was opened to discuss Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. It's not a conspiracy which some have assumed without even listening to the video. Please don't assume you know the details and then launch into a nasty response or personal attack or based on your own assumptions.  

The link for the video is in the first post on the thread.  



nohero

I commented twice on the topic.

nan said:
17 posts and not one person has bothered to comment on the topic.  DaveSchmidt, are you just too lazy to open your own thread?  Do you think I run a thread opening business?  Kinda rude to just assume that your piece relates and to take over my thread.  
Anyway, this thread was opened to discuss Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. It's not a conspiracy which some have assumed without even listening to the video. Please don't assume you know the details and then launch into a nasty response or personal attack or based on your own assumptions.  
The link for the video is in the first post on the thread.  


 


Nancy
nohero said:
I commented twice on the topic.


nan said:
17 posts and not one person has bothered to comment on the topic.  DaveSchmidt, are you just too lazy to open your own thread?  Do you think I run a thread opening business?  Kinda rude to just assume that your piece relates and to take over my thread.  
Anyway, this thread was opened to discuss Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. It's not a conspiracy which some have assumed without even listening to the video. Please don't assume you know the details and then launch into a nasty response or personal attack or based on your own assumptions.  
The link for the video is in the first post on the thread.  
 

 No, you did not.  You said something irrelevant about it being related to hating Hillary and that you were sure Russia was in the wrong.  You clearly did not listen to the video and just made up what it was about. 


DaveSchmidt
nan said:
17 posts and not one person has bothered to comment on the topic.  DaveSchmidt, are you just too lazy to open your own thread?  Do you think I run a thread opening business?  Kinda rude to just assume that your piece relates and to take over my thread.  

No.

And no.

And when I open threads, I welcome all comers and cede any control over what direction they take.



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