Another liquor store on Springfield Ave

Statistically, we can expect more drunk driving, loitering, and broken bottles in the surrounding neighborhoods.  Is that the best that the Springfield Avenue Partnership can attract to the area? When I moved to the here 15 years ago, there was Wooden You Know, Net Nomads Cafe, later Kari’s cafe, Cafe Meow, a yarn store and others. We also lost Puppy Love, Edo’s bakery, and others.  I understand there were different reasons for them leaving, landlords doubling or tripling the rents, Target opening in Union, etc, things that the Partnership and the Town Council can’t control. However, the Avenue doesn’t need 3 liquor stores 3 blocks from each other. South Pierson, Prospect & now across the street from Princeton. What can a concerned and alarmed resident do? Really.


Sad_Dog said.   However, the Avenue doesn’t need 3 liquor stores 3 blocks from each other. South Pierson, Prospect & now across the street from Princeton. What can a concerned and alarmed resident do? Really.

 I remember there always being 3-4 liquor stores on Springfield. I think there are at least 3 right now: Mrs. Lee’s, Wine Barrel & Quick Check.

We used to have one across the street from Wine Barrel & also another down near Park Wood. They come & go.

Hey, more competition, cheaper prices, sounds good to me.


Town has limited control over the type of business that can open on private property.  Remember the hair salon/nail salon issue on Springfield Avenue a number of years back?


If there's an available liquor license out there, the person who owns it will want to open a store.

There are two in the village in Maplewood, and the rents are high there.

The other commercial district with parking and people and places to rent is Springfield Avenue.  I don't know what the business district or the Township can do to keep someone from opening a business there.


And yet after pressure from residents, the town did limit the amount of salons allowed in the village. My concern is that Springfield avenue spaces are becoming less community oriented. When my kids were young, they got to experience meeting neighbors in a relaxed environment. Heck, because of Kari’s Cafe, The Able Baker was able to create a buzz about it’s baked goods. New families moving to our neighborhoods are missing out on that friendly spirit. There are many bright spots on the Avenue and I dont want them to suffer from the effects that a discount liquor store brings to a neighborhood.

 I like a discount as much anyone, but my home’s value is tied to the perception that my neighborhood is safe, clean and welcoming. Will this business add value to our homes or bring them down?


Sad_Dog said:

And yet after pressure from residents, the town did limit the amount of salons allowed in the village. ...

Technically, what was done was setting a minimum distance between nail salons.  "Within the confines of the Maplewood Village Special Improvement District, no nail salon shall be located within 500 feet of an existing nail salon business. The distance between nail salon businesses shall be measured from the nearest entrance of the existing nail salon to the newest entrance of the proposed new nail business along the route that a pedestrian would normally walk." [§237-9.3(A)(2)]


Sad_Dog said:

Statistically, we can expect more drunk driving, loitering, and broken bottles in the surrounding neighborhoods.  

please show these statistics of which you speak.

 


Years ago there was an "Adult Bookstore". Now in the same area there are the Police HQ-Municipal Court and the Mormon Church.

I do not see how one more liquor store will make much of a difference. People who abuse alcohol will go to wherever they can get it. Supply does not always increase demand.


Also, if I recall correctly there was a liquor store that closed, which was also on Springfield Avenue. I don't think the new one represents a net increase of the number that's been there. 


Where is the new one?

There was one across from Dunkin Donuts that's completely gone now.


ml1 said:

please show these statistics of which you speak.

 

I took a gander at ye old internet.  It seems like the kind of thing you could get lost in, but this article does reference other research showing a connection between "outlet density" and alcohol-related incidents.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3860569/

There were other articles as well but I am supposed to be working and feeding my child lunch.

That being said, yeah, there's an available retail liquor license so yes someone is going to want to open a retail outlet.  It's the kind of business that's going to look for a lower rent location.  I'm honestly not sure that in the given geography, adding another liquor outlet will suddenly improve access to alcohol sufficiently to cause a spike in problems.


mrincredible said:

I took a gander at ye old internet.  It seems like the kind of thing you could get lost in, but this article does reference other research showing a connection between "outlet density" and alcohol-related incidents.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3860569/

There were other articles as well but I am supposed to be working and feeding my child lunch.

That being said, yeah, there's an available retail liquor license so yes someone is going to want to open a retail outlet.  It's the kind of business that's going to look for a lower rent location.  I'm honestly not sure that in the given geography, adding another liquor outlet will suddenly improve access to alcohol sufficiently to cause a spike in problems.

 in this case wouldn't the most relevant  data be the number of alcohol related incidents in Maplewood when there was one more liquor store on SA, and then after it closed?


ml1 said:

 in this case wouldn't the most relevant  data be the number of alcohol related incidents in Maplewood when there was one more liquor store on SA, and then after it closed?

Not necessarily. That would be too small of a data set that wouldn't control for other factors that influence the prevalence of alcohol abuse-related problems. You need a broader study that could isolate the effect of just adding one liquor outlet to a given community.

Did anyone answer my question about where the new liquor store is?


mrincredible said:

Not necessarily. That would be too small of a data set that wouldn't control for other factors that influence the prevalence of alcohol abuse-related problems. You need a broader study that could isolate the effect of just adding one liquor outlet to a given community.

Did anyone answer my question about where the new liquor store is?

 do I need a broader study when I have a case study in the exact place where the new store is expected?  


Sad_Dog said:

Statistically, we can expect more drunk driving, loitering, and broken bottles in the surrounding neighborhoods.  

 

 

People loiter around liquor stores? To do what, drink their bottles so they can then throw them out the window as they drunkenly drive around the neighborhood?



ml1 said:

 do I need a broader study when I have a case study in the exact place where the new store is expected?  

Possibly.  Your case study would need to account for other factors that might have contributed to a reduced event rate.  Maybe shortly after the one liquor store closed there was an increase in drunk driver checkpoints in the town or enforcement of stuff like loitering or public drinking happened to go up.  

Likewise, maybe a liquor store closed at the same time that a municipality had to cut down on police patrols for budget reasons.  If there was no change in alcohol-related incidents, the reduced police presence could confound the positive effect of eliminating a liquor outlet in your case study.  I'm not sure I'd accept it for publication in The Journal of Incredible Research.

In short, you can't just identify the closure and opening of two liquor stores as the only contributing factors.  I think something like alcohol-related problems is more nuanced than that.


It took me a while but I finally figured out where the OP is talking about.

If it's "Across From Princeton" it's in the building that used to house Churrasco (sniff), Soups and Scoops and The Liquor Cabinet.  Google street view shows it had a liquor store as recently as 2013, but it was the hair braiding place by 2016 (I love this time-travel feature of Street View).

In 2013 Wine Barrel wasn't there yet (it was still Sovereign Bank) and the liquor store across from Dunkin Donuts was already defunct.  So it looks like in 2013 your choices for liquor stores on Springfield Avenue were Kasper's, Maple Chek and The Liquor Cabinet.  So now it will be Kasper's, the new place, Wine Barrel and Maple Chek.

Four years ago according to the Village Green the township denied an application for a new liquor store that would have used the old A&P liquor license.  It would have been at 1715 Springfield Avenue where the Dollar Store is now.  They promised to help find a different location that wasn't right across from an existing Liquor Store.  I wonder if this is the same applicant.  The article cites the proximity of the Wine Barrel as another factor for denying the applicant, which is funny since now a new liquor store has been approved even closer to the Wine Barrel.

https://villagegreennj.com/towns/government/maplewood-denies-applicant-new-springfield-ave-liquor-store/

I'm actually more concerned about whether it's economically viable to have four businesses where there had been three.  Probably depends on what kind of liquor store we get.  Maple Chek and Kasper's are pretty dissimilar to Wine Barrel.

I remember going in to The Liquor Cabinet for wine for dinner at Churrasco.  It was pretty limited selection and kinda pricey if I recall.  


STANV said:

Years ago there was an "Adult Bookstore". Now in the same area there are the Police HQ-Municipal Court and the Mormon Church.

I do not see how one more liquor store will make much of a difference. People who abuse alcohol will go to wherever they can get it. Supply does not always increase demand.

 Stanv , there was the adult movie and toys store that’s still there. Past the police on the left. Liquor stores come and go on Springfield ave all the time. I was particularly upset when the fireplace guy left and a liquor store went into that space. Maplewood does not want fast food restaurants on Springfield ave. They have been trying for years to make that area attractive for residents to go. Sadly it does not get the foot traffic. 


Jaytee said:

 Stanv , there was the adult movie and toys store that’s still there. 

 The building is still there but I think the business closed down years ago.


mrincredible said:

 The building is still there but I think the business closed down years ago.

 Yes it is, stan thought it was knocked down to build the police hq 


Jaytee said:

 Yes it is, stan thought it was knocked down to build the police hq 

 I think you misunderstood what he wrote. He said the police hq and Mormon Church are in the same area. 


mrincredible said:

Possibly.  Your case study would need to account for other factors that might have contributed to a reduced event rate.  Maybe shortly after the one liquor store closed there was an increase in drunk driver checkpoints in the town or enforcement of stuff like loitering or public drinking happened to go up.  

Likewise, maybe a liquor store closed at the same time that a municipality had to cut down on police patrols for budget reasons.  If there was no change in alcohol-related incidents, the reduced police presence could confound the positive effect of eliminating a liquor outlet in your case study.  I'm not sure I'd accept it for publication in The Journal of Incredible Research.

In short, you can't just identify the closure and opening of two liquor stores as the only contributing factors.  I think something like alcohol-related problems is more nuanced than that.

 this is our town. Don't we know the actual answers to those questions?


I don't see another liquor store leading to loitering, broken bottles or more drunk diving.

In NYC, almost all small family grocery stores, bodegas, supermarkets, restaurants and of course all bars and liquor stores sell alcoholic beverages. Usually, within a two or three block area you will find a merchant selling alcoholic beverages. What I don't see there are broken bottles, loitering or mobs of rampaging drunks. I don't feel endangered by drunk drivers when going there.

Studies can be made to propagandize an agenda. I follow what I experience see, such as what I see in NYC.


Sad_Dog said:

However, the Avenue doesn’t need 3 liquor stores 3 blocks from each other. 

 The market will decide if this is true. 


Soul_29 said:

Sad_Dog said:

However, the Avenue doesn’t need 3 liquor stores 3 blocks from each other. 

 The market will decide if this is true. 

 This!


It's almost unnatural in the current Covid environment to be talking about what we want, ideally, on a retail thoroughfare.   God bless any business that can hold on until (if) things get better.

Cutting against the grain though, apparently, is the bicycle business.  Based upon a recent thread here, I just had the new bike shop, Urban Cyclery, pick up our bikes for tune ups.  They are going like gangbusters it seems.  Covid has been a boon to cycling.


mrincredible said:

It took me a while but I finally figured out where the OP is talking about.

If it's "Across From Princeton" it's in the building that used to house Churrasco (sniff), Soups and Scoops and The Liquor Cabinet.  Google street view shows it had a liquor store as recently as 2013, but it was the hair braiding place by 2016 (I love this time-travel feature of Street View).

In 2013 Wine Barrel wasn't there yet (it was still Sovereign Bank) and the liquor store across from Dunkin Donuts was already defunct.  So it looks like in 2013 your choices for liquor stores on Springfield Avenue were Kasper's, Maple Chek and The Liquor Cabinet.  So now it will be Kasper's, the new place, Wine Barrel and Maple Chek.

Four years ago according to the Village Green the township denied an application for a new liquor store that would have used the old A&P liquor license.  It would have been at 1715 Springfield Avenue where the Dollar Store is now.  They promised to help find a different location that wasn't right across from an existing Liquor Store.  I wonder if this is the same applicant.  The article cites the proximity of the Wine Barrel as another factor for denying the applicant, which is funny since now a new liquor store has been approved even closer to the Wine Barrel.

https://villagegreennj.com/towns/government/maplewood-denies-applicant-new-springfield-ave-liquor-store/

I'm actually more concerned about whether it's economically viable to have four businesses where there had been three.  Probably depends on what kind of liquor store we get.  Maple Chek and Kasper's are pretty dissimilar to Wine Barrel.

I remember going in to The Liquor Cabinet for wine for dinner at Churrasco.  It was pretty limited selection and kinda pricey if I recall.  

 Actually the store is to the right of the building in the picture ( if you are facing it ) Most recently it was a short lived car wash, and at one time was briefly considered to be the site of the new post office.  The retailer is Joe Canal discount Liquor- they have a few locations in NJ.


ros said:

 Actually the store is to the right of the building in the picture ( if you are facing it ) Most recently it was a short lived car wash, and at one time was briefly considered to be the site of the new post office.  The retailer is Joe Canal discount Liquor- they have a few locations in NJ.

 Wow. That's a large space. Could be a great addition if they have a good quality selection and decent prices.


mrincredible said:

 Wow. That's a large space. Could be a great addition if they have a good quality selection and decent prices.

 except for the loitering, drunk driving and broken bottles.


ml1 said:

 except for the loitering, drunk driving and broken bottles.

 That's only on my birthday.



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