A New Columbia High School? archived
Nov 16, 2010 at 2:16pm
I've never been in the high school, although I've always admired the exterior (the A wing, at least). Is it possible for random visitors to get inside?
Nov 16, 2010 at 5:01pm Edited
Its a beautiful school. I don't know how well it serves over 2,000 kids, which I don't suppose it was ever built to do. I think it's probably too big to re-purposed to something else, and given the lack of current funds available to improve infrastructure I suppose that any sort of new construction is off the table budget wise. The only thing I could think of that might allow it to retain its purpose might be to make a consolidated middle school and then possibly convert the existing middle schools into SO High and Maplewood High.
I think that eventually there will be more county wide consolidation of school districts so that we will someday see a school district composed of MSO, WO, Livingston, and Millburn, and then maybe there will be easier ways to afford renovation of Columbia.
I think that eventually there will be more county wide consolidation of school districts so that we will someday see a school district composed of MSO, WO, Livingston, and Millburn, and then maybe there will be easier ways to afford renovation of Columbia.
Nov 16, 2010 at 5:09pm Edited
Posted By: campbell29
I think that eventually there will be more county wide consolidation of school districts so that we will someday see a school district composed of MSO, WO, Livingston, and Millburn, and then maybe there will be easier ways to afford renovation of Columbia.
Um, not Newark? Closer than WO or Livingston ...
Nov 16, 2010 at 5:09pm Edited
(to kthnry) go to an event like the play or a music concert. or go to the Domerecki art gallery. I think sometimes they have public viewings when new exhibits go up and most likely the front office knows.s
interesting thoughts extuscan. As an aside...one thing I believe is that the ceilings recently have been replaced plus new lighting on 2nd and 3rd floor C wing (and other wings?) as part of the overall overhaul over the last 3 years. But I like the idea of extensive renovations/additions as you describe. It also would be nice to own land along Valley specifically those 2 big white walk up apartment houses plus that empty lot next to them.
The pool is in okay shape considering its age but it is really a maintenance monster unfortunately. I would imagine that anything built in the future won't have a pool unless there's an extra $2.0MM involved. I sure would like the Y to build a pool...it would be so convenient and a good reason not to have a pool as a district responsibility. I always have imagined the pool as being a dance studio or even a wrestling room.
The trees in front of the building may be a bit large now, but what is hurting the buildings is the ivy. The maintenance guys have pulled alot of it down, but it has gotten very thick in the front and that is not good for brick mortar or windows.
interesting thoughts extuscan. As an aside...one thing I believe is that the ceilings recently have been replaced plus new lighting on 2nd and 3rd floor C wing (and other wings?) as part of the overall overhaul over the last 3 years. But I like the idea of extensive renovations/additions as you describe. It also would be nice to own land along Valley specifically those 2 big white walk up apartment houses plus that empty lot next to them.
The pool is in okay shape considering its age but it is really a maintenance monster unfortunately. I would imagine that anything built in the future won't have a pool unless there's an extra $2.0MM involved. I sure would like the Y to build a pool...it would be so convenient and a good reason not to have a pool as a district responsibility. I always have imagined the pool as being a dance studio or even a wrestling room.
The trees in front of the building may be a bit large now, but what is hurting the buildings is the ivy. The maintenance guys have pulled alot of it down, but it has gotten very thick in the front and that is not good for brick mortar or windows.
campbell, there are less than 2000 students currently. More like 1900. Inthe 70's there were 2600 students in the school as it exists now. It definitely took a beating during the baby boom.
Renovate Montrose first, move 1/2 the high school students there, renovate Columbia and build a new high school across the street (buy Mark Gleason's building first, buy A & P and all buildings in between). Then consider what Montclair has proposed - bring all special-needs students currently assigned (and paid for) out of district back into one of the buildings (Montrose? Renovated Columbia?) to help cut down on the Special Ed budget, and use it as a revenue generator - bring other special needs students from around the area and charge tuition.
The Montclair Patch had a good article on Montclair's plans a couple of days ago.
The Montclair Patch had a good article on Montclair's plans a couple of days ago.
Posted By: momof4peepers (buy Mark Gleason's building first, buy A & P and all buildings in between).
I never knew he owned a building, except his house, that is.
Posted By: campbell29think that eventually there will be more county wide consolidation of school districts so that we will someday see a school district composed of MSO, WO, Livingston, and Millburn, and then maybe there will be easier ways to afford renovation of Columbia.
Yeh right, like we are going to merge with you so you can use our tax dollars to build yourself a fancy new high school. If you want your own fancy boondoggle (which will dwarf both SOPAC and the police station combined in cost) pay for it yourself.
but broigus, if we merge with you, just think, you are nicely set up since you already post on our issues all the time!
Nov 17, 2010 at 2:38am Edited
If we merged with Newark, we'd get some of them $100 million Facebook clams ... Maybe Oprah would come and everything ... (Edited to add) And we could have a wine tasting!!
I can't see how we'd ever move half the HS to Montrose. It's not centrally located, so half of Maplewood would need to be bused. (My kids would be thrilled they wouldn't have to hoof it 1.8 miles though.)
I agree completely with extuscan. But I have my doubts a new school will ever be built. At least not while any of my kids are in the system. And I would want to see the original school, which is stunningly beautiful, get a complete interior renovation to bring it up to modern standards, but not change the character one iota. Although I can only imagine something like that would be very expensive. Maybe even more so than just building a whole new building from the ground up.
Montrose school wouldn't hold 500 students let alone half of Columbia's 1900 enrollment. Now we are buying buildings too (that no one seems to want to sell). With what money? This is one wacky thread.
If we merge with Newark, wouldn't we qualify as an Abbott district? Think of the savings!
Maybe not move 1/2 of the current enrollment to Montrose - but a significant portion so that renovations could take place AT Columbia. You're talking about renovating wings of a building, which presumably have students - where are they going to go? My hometown just built a brand new high school (it was SORELY needed) and once it opened, there was a staggered open enrollment. Only current 9th and 10th graders went - if they were zoned for the school - the rest remained at the old school. Each year the new zoned students entered so after 3 years it was (will be) fully enrolled. This allowed the town to spread out the labor costs to add teachers. If we're going to renovate, there ARE going to be some costs involved BEYOND just the renovated building.
From Parker St. through the A & P is a HUGE tract of land, and probably the only place we COULD put a new high school. My apologies if Mr. Gleason doesn't own the building where the drycleaner is located - I assumed (my bad!) that it was his business and he owned the building.
And Mod - if you looked at what Montclair is suggesting - finding additional revenue streams, the money COULD be there. But the renovations have to happen first.
From Parker St. through the A & P is a HUGE tract of land, and probably the only place we COULD put a new high school. My apologies if Mr. Gleason doesn't own the building where the drycleaner is located - I assumed (my bad!) that it was his business and he owned the building.
And Mod - if you looked at what Montclair is suggesting - finding additional revenue streams, the money COULD be there. But the renovations have to happen first.
Posted By: RobBIf we merge with Newark, wouldn't we qualify as an Abbott district? Think of the savings!and we already seem to have quite a few Newark students, we could just admit they are here and getting funding for them!
Posted By: kthnryI've never been in the high school, although I've always admired the exterior (the A wing, at least). Is it possible for random visitors to get inside?There are a number of public events during the year, some of which take place in the auditorium (central to the A wing) and at least one - the annual "School in Action" night in the late spring - that takes place throughout the school. You could certainly visit at one of those times.
Montrose is TINY, only 9 classrooms in the entire building. It is much smaller than any other elementary school in town. You'd have to build a new wing at CHS and knock down the old after the new one is done... renovating while students are in a wing is not possible with the amount of asbestos in even the newer parts of the school.
I forgot to add last night... MMS is the bigger mess, more so than CHS. The front door opens on to stairs. The 1900's part connects to the 1920's part on only one side. The 1920's parts connects to the 1960's parts with half flight through-stairwell hallways. There is no connection from the 1900's part to the 1960's part without going outside or through the 1920's part. Circulation wise, it is awful. Overall, it is a very tired building. While CHS I would preserve the original interior and exterior, MMS I think would need to get "skinned". Basically keep the Baker and Burnett fascades, and demolish everything behind it. Where do the kids go while MMS is under a multi-year gut job? Well you would have to have built the new CHS wing first, and then put the middle school student in the B and D wings while MMS is renovated. Then when MMS is open again, knock down B, C, and D wings.
I'm not a finance guy, but I like to guess
Maybe $150,000,000 to build a mostly new high school? It that wildly wrong? The state pays 40% of non-Abbott district construction (I think!) so the bond would be $90,000,000. I used a mortgage calculator, and that would be about $5.85 million a year for 25 years to pay off at 4.25% (I guessed at the term and the rate). There are obviously existing bonds expiring so not all of that would be new money. Maybe it is do-able? But I want a new middle school too, so .... pipe dream I guess ... on my part, and Mark Gleason
I guess what I DON'T agree with is Gleason's suggestion that an investment in A-WING would be wasted money. Cash in C-wing? yeah, that's a waste.
-John
I forgot to add last night... MMS is the bigger mess, more so than CHS. The front door opens on to stairs. The 1900's part connects to the 1920's part on only one side. The 1920's parts connects to the 1960's parts with half flight through-stairwell hallways. There is no connection from the 1900's part to the 1960's part without going outside or through the 1920's part. Circulation wise, it is awful. Overall, it is a very tired building. While CHS I would preserve the original interior and exterior, MMS I think would need to get "skinned". Basically keep the Baker and Burnett fascades, and demolish everything behind it. Where do the kids go while MMS is under a multi-year gut job? Well you would have to have built the new CHS wing first, and then put the middle school student in the B and D wings while MMS is renovated. Then when MMS is open again, knock down B, C, and D wings.
I'm not a finance guy, but I like to guess
Maybe $150,000,000 to build a mostly new high school? It that wildly wrong? The state pays 40% of non-Abbott district construction (I think!) so the bond would be $90,000,000. I used a mortgage calculator, and that would be about $5.85 million a year for 25 years to pay off at 4.25% (I guessed at the term and the rate). There are obviously existing bonds expiring so not all of that would be new money. Maybe it is do-able? But I want a new middle school too, so .... pipe dream I guess ... on my part, and Mark Gleason I guess what I DON'T agree with is Gleason's suggestion that an investment in A-WING would be wasted money. Cash in C-wing? yeah, that's a waste.
-John
Montrose has far more than 9 classrooms. There may be 9 in use right now, but it's a full three-story building with a wing off the side. It has a gym, lunchroom, large yards, a room that was a library -- all the usual elementary school stuff.
You're right, I forgot about the basement. But there are five on the first floor, four on the second floor, and maybe another four in basement so a total of 13.
Here is the floorplan... never had an addition so this old drawing is still good.
Here is the floorplan... never had an addition so this old drawing is still good.
um, am i the only one for whom this conversation is like listening to a poor person who can't afford a hot dog plan out a champagne and lobster brunch? am i missing something?
There are often special funding opportunities for capital projects like this one. I am quite sure that no one believes this kind of expense could come from the operating budget or the existing capital budget.
That said, I would guess it is still unlikely.
That said, I would guess it is still unlikely.
but where would a "special funding opportunity" come from? unless we're talking about private angel funds, isn't the entire state of nj pretty tapped out right now?
Non-Abbott get 40% of the cost of school construction. Christie just bonded $500M for school construction.
The building could EASILY become landmarked, which can come with all sorts of money. Between Betelle (building), Guastavino (pool ceiling), Skinner (pipe organ), Brashere (telescope), E. Howard (clock), Meneely (3500 lb bell), and Mueller (lobby tile) you have plenty of names to drop. There are several landmarked Betelle buildings, and most where Guastavino was involved!
I am no district-finance expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know there are existing bonds ending soon...
But yes, please, don't think this is anything but a pipe dream I have "heard" that some members of the school board want to start over with a new high school building, and I would just like much more to see 50's/70's additions replaced and the original building kept... instead of just building another anonymous box high school.
-John
The building could EASILY become landmarked, which can come with all sorts of money. Between Betelle (building), Guastavino (pool ceiling), Skinner (pipe organ), Brashere (telescope), E. Howard (clock), Meneely (3500 lb bell), and Mueller (lobby tile) you have plenty of names to drop. There are several landmarked Betelle buildings, and most where Guastavino was involved!
I am no district-finance expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know there are existing bonds ending soon...
But yes, please, don't think this is anything but a pipe dream
I have "heard" that some members of the school board want to start over with a new high school building, and I would just like much more to see 50's/70's additions replaced and the original building kept... instead of just building another anonymous box high school.-John
Posted By: mommyrockbut where would a "special funding opportunity" come from? unless we're talking about private angel funds, isn't the entire state of nj pretty tapped out right now?
I'm not going to search for them right now, but private funders do exist. Something this large would likely be a public-private partnership with several sources of funding. Nevertheless, there is nothing happening right now but talk.
The BOE must look at the long term capacity of our infrastructure. That is an important component of their job.
Maplewood Middle needs attention before Columbia. South Orange Middle was opened in the late 50s -- that is 50 years ago. Replacing the original Columbia wing is a joke. That building will hold up longer and outlive any Board member. Take one wing down at a time and rebuild one at a time. Since the building has accommodated 2600 students in the 70s, then three wings can handle 1900 students.
Do not move Columbia from 17 Parker Avenue.
Do not move Columbia from 17 Parker Avenue.
Posted By: ffofInthe 70's there were 2600 students in the school as it exists now. It definitely took a beating during the baby boom.back then there were only three grades as well. ther were something like 667 in the class of '79
Posted By: momof4peepersRenovate Montrose first, move 1/2 the high school students there,won't work. if i remember correctly there are less then ten classrooms there.
Posted By: silkcityMontrose has far more than 9 classrooms. There may be 9 in use right now, but it's a full three-story building with a wing off the side.it has a wing? where? if i recall correctly there are five classrooms on the first floor, the gym, the auditorium, main office and nurse's office. second floor had three classrooms and the teacher's lounge. basement had the art room and bathrooms.
at one point, in the late sixties, there were tow portable classrooms
Not too long ago CHS had a larger student population than it currently does. If the building needs upgrading the BOE should come up with a plan and not just speculate. Of course, if they had devoted attention to this over the last several years, the problem would not be as severe as some think. Meanwhile, I think that it would be nice if Broigus pledged an effort to raise a few million as payment for using this blog to expound on everything even though he does not live here.
You can not reply as this discussion is Closed!
http://maplewood.patch.com/articles/achieve-gives-district-15k-for-auditorium-study
A backstory, well caught by Mary Mann, was the hint from Mark Gleason that he believes we need a new high school. I've heard before from other people suggesting that members of the school board think CHS needs major upgrades, or outright replacement. But this is the strongest evidence I've seen in print that might mean that some members of the school board might favor a new high school. The quote was "I don't think we've sketched out a long-term plan for the high school and I'm not sure the building has a 50 year life." My suspicion is that we're not talking about something fifty years from now.
So what is public opinion here? Is CHS obsolete?
I'd say... much of it, yes. Namely, B, C and D wings. In the 1920's, the people of Maplewood and South Orange looked at the Victorian era Columbia School on Academy Street (now demolished) and said... it is time for something new. They got the stunning 1927 CHS. This building was national news when it opened. In the 1930's, they looked a the 1927 building and said... it need more space for industrial arts. In the 1950's, they thought it needed C-wing... with space for a new gym, music facilities, classrooms, and more industrial arts space. In the 1970's, they thought it needed new science space, media space, and they also built the largest high school library on the east coast, and yet again, industrial arts! It doesn't take a genius to see the patchwork of additions (though the 1930's addition is easy to miss).
So it is nothing new for the local residents to look at the high school periodically and find deficiencies. I can tell you that C-wing is a horror show. The intersection of A, B, and C wings is almost dangerous because of the amount of traffic in a small space. C wing is built with a slope to it, so there are steps mid-hallway requiring wheelchair lifts. On the other side, C-wing is joined with A-wing with a through-the-staircase link that is a half-floor between the basement and first floor. It was almost like it was built to be cruel to the handicapped. Banks of lockers have been replaced with plywood boards, the ceiling tiles are cardboard, and basically it is a worn out dump. B and D wings are in the typical 70's style... cinderblock walls, cardboard ceilings, dark narrow halls... It just isn't a pleasant place. Plus, the way science and technology is taught, the spaces are just obsolete. Worse still, even though built in the 70's, there is no shortage of asbestos making renovations costly.
If you've ever seen some of the new schools that have been built, you can't help but be impressed. They are bright, airy, air conditioned, modern, clean.... you name it. They are also $100Million and up... but an investment in the high school is, in my mind, what keeps the town desirable. You have to compete.
But ... A-wing. The old CHS. What a stunner. Even with the abuse piled upon it... mismatched additions, horrible windows, overgrown trees, white linoleum floors, electrical lines visibly tacked to the walls... it still is beautiful. In 1927, CHS was covered with a long article in American School Board Journal. For that magazine's 50th anniversary, they came back to see how the building fared and found that people loved it and didn't really like the new addition! I think that is true today, we love A-wing, we don't care for B C or D.
So here is what I would do. Either along Valley Street, or along Academy Street if knocking down houses and Fielding School is an option to save field space, build a large new addition in a style sympathetic to the old. Think it can't be done? Check out what they built on the back of Tuscan School... it is a wonderful match. In this new addition, build those parts which need to be new. The science classrooms, the technology classrooms, the arts classrooms, a new pool, new gyms, whatever is needed. Make them modern as the minute in form and layout, but keep the skin traditional like they did with Tuscan School. Then tear down the 50's and 70's additions and patch those places where the buildings once abutted. Keep A-wing for subjects that fit will in the traditional spaces of A-wing... history, language arts, foreign languages, etc. Have the new space with everything that makes a great new modern high school, and the old space for every thing else.
I'm at the point of rambling, but consider the adaptive reuse possibilities of the two old gyms and the pool. What ruined the pool? Building C-wing in front of the giant window and taking down the chandeliers, that's what. What is still there? An amazing Guastavino ceiling. I'd combine the pool space, and east and west gyms, into a giant library. Built a 1st floor entrance to the pool area which would be converted in the the main circulation desk area. The gyms, depending on the space needed, could be split into two floors... connected through the balcony area... for the stacks and study/corral areas. With C-wing gone, the window would make it very bright and again an attractive place. You could make an amazing space out of that, and build a modern pool of normal dimensions in the new building.
In terms of patching A-wing, when the additions are removed, there isn't much to do. The hardest part would be 1st floor, Academy street side, because a row of windows where cut out. But the rest of the A-wings exterior is mostly still there, either serving as interior walls (check in the library...) or just hiding. It is mostly still there, with largely plain brick sections taking the brunt of the damage.
So, whatever, I'm done talking. What would you do? New high school? Extensive renovations? My idea? Nothing?
-John