300 Priests - 1000 victims

Crimes against their own children.  How is this still being discovered?  Remove the redactions-  let the names come out.  One Bishop has said he will remove from church buildings the names of any accused priests.   I’m sure that’s great comfort to victims and their families. Remarkable tone deafness.  


I’m catholic.  My parents are / were both catholic.  All of my grandparents were catholic.  Most of my 10 aunts and uncles are/ were catholic.  


Fu$& these Priests.   They are terrorists.   Frank better step up.  


Eta:  Frank’s response to McCarrick was to accept his resignation.   BFD.  I’ll bet he’s been sending thoughts and prayers to McCarrick’s victims.   He’s complicit.  


I too am completely horrified. 


an institutional problem that’s been going on hundreds of years 

The priest was to be respected, not questioned, followed 

And look what we got 

My deceased father in law was abused by priests starting when he was a young boy serving in church. His pain from the trauma was never erased.  

There is no amount of “good” done that can ever eclipse this tragedy.  Sell every square inch of RC church property and give it away 


When will a similar inquiry be held in NJ?


I personally know of 3 from NJ.  One was discovered in the late 70s..maybe about 1980, the priest was moved out of state suddenly, but moved back to NJ working with college student shortly.  He was never charged, but died maybe 10-15 years ago. I think a good friend of my was a victim.  The kid acted out sexually from a very young age and was TERRIFIED of the church.   One was removed after allegations, it never got much publicity, I don't know what happened.  The 3rd was from my town I lived in as a kid, but never worked in that town...i think he was in Bergen County.  My sister was friends with him.  He claimed he only admitted touching so the alleged victim wouldn't be traumatized by being forced to testify,but claimed he didn't do it.  Eventually the charges were dropped in exchange for him agreeing to not be with kids, that he repeatedly violated...and the church enabled repeatedly assigning him to positions with kids.


I went to Catholic high school, one year my religion teacher was a Brother.  He said priests felt it was okay to abuse as all they had to do was confess and everything would be okay.


One of the longest entries in the Pa. grand jury report was on the pastor of the church in the parish where I grew up. His creepy behavior was an open secret. One of his (many) victims later became a television journalist who reported on allegations of abuse in the state, but declined to press charges personally because of her public position. I've never regretted bailing on church and CCD classes the minute I was able to secretly drive someplace else.


The Catholic Church is a terrorist organization.


I'm thinking the whole celibacy thing is kind of problematic.


yahooyahoo said:
The Catholic Church is a terrorist organization.

The Church tried to suppress the Grand Jury:

Two Pa. dioceses tried to block grand jury probe

GREENSBURG, Pa. — The Roman Catholic Dioceses of Greensburg and Harrisburg last year sought to shut down the statewide grand jury investigating sexual abuse by priests in six dioceses, including their own, contending that the creation of the grand jury lacked a legal justification.

drummerboy said:
I'm thinking the whole celibacy thing is kind of problematic.

 I agree. Wouldn't letting priests marry alleviate some of the urge to abuse children?


It takes a long time for the Catholic Church to change their ways. I'm sure in years to come all priests will be able to marry. Let's speed up the process.


And just remember how right Sinead O'Connor was back in 1992. She just got pissed on for it. No one could comprehend the evil lurking in that church.





The NY Times podcast called The Daily had a very good treatment of this story. I recommend it.


Tom_Reingold said:


drummerboy said:
I'm thinking the whole celibacy thing is kind of problematic.
 I agree. Wouldn't letting priests marry alleviate some of the urge to abuse children?

It's more complicated...the psychological dynamics that were going on in these incidents are far more complex than sexual urges that might be mitigated by marriage.  

     The only research of which I am aware (there may be more current studies I haven't seen) was a 2004 study in which the results showed that 80% of the victims of sexual abuse by male priests and deacons were male adolescents... about 15% were under 10.  But, the gender of the victim may not be key.  Sexual identity can be much more fluid than we tend to ascribe in our LGB  nomenclature and there are various degrees of bi-sexuality to consider. So, we cannot assume that a priest who molests a boy is acting out some sort of homosexual urges that might have been alleviated if only the priest had been allowed a same-sex marriage any more than we can assume a priest who molests a girl is acting out heterosexual urges that might be alleviated if he had been allowed to marry a woman.  

     But far more importantly, the motivation for pedophilia is vastly different than sexual relationships between consenting adults, whether in the context of a marriage or not. Sexually abusing a child is not a replacement for "normal" sexual relationships among adults any more than a rape is merely a substitute for "normal" sexual relations. One common theory is that most pedophiles were molested as children. As children, they lacked the ability to control the situation. By sexually assaulting children themselves, pedophiles keep attempting to re-create the trauma they experienced to "normalize" and learn how to master it. The role reversal affords them a sense of power and reduces their sense of being a powerless victim.   Others attribute pedophilia to arrested psycho-social development; that is, the pedophile is attracted to children because he or she has never matured psychologically and they identify with children more than their adult peers.  This is the Michael Jackson theory.  Of course, there are many theories but, the truth is, we really don't know for sure why people commit pedophilia.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html#ixzz5OS9fuEEv

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crimes-violence/201005/priest-abuse-male-compared-female-victimization-impact 





Disgusting. Criminal. And nothing of real impact will be done. 

And Trumpf wants to start a Religious Protection Force. And deny the separation of church and state. The founders anticipated exactly this.

Unbelievable. 

Tax the Churches. Better, shutter the churches. Mine, too.

Close the mosques. Shut the synagogues. Burn down the churches. Send the clergy to re-education camps. Jail the criminal clergy.

Freedom for all people. Freedom FROM religion.


Thank you, @Norman_Bates. That's a good brief treatment of the subject. We still don't have a lot of insight into why priests do this more than other people, and it seems to be the case. For all I know, it could be because the power structure is so vast.


its not so much the ban on marriage that is leading to the problem...after all if they wanted to be with women, they could be with women-not kids, but it has likely been known among the pedophile population that the church was protecting abusers..so the church was attracting pedophiles.

and many pedophiles are married men (and women).


I have found that the most religious people of all religions are the most uncaring...they claim to want to do go and help their neighbor, but when you ask for help like someone to help for a couple hours a few times a year for an elderly person....NO ONE will give up a baseball game or TV show to help.  I was actually told by a protestant church that they don't have the 'personnel' to help.....like you need specialized training to do normal household work like take out the newspapers...this same church was robbed and said that if the robber had asked, they would have helped.....but i called their bluff, they refused all help..heck if they didn't have personnel they could have hired someone and paid for it since they claimed they would someone in financial need...and this person couldn't pay anyone even for that little  time.


Tom_Reingold said:
We still don't have a lot of insight into why priests do this more than other people, and it seems to be the case. For all I know, it could be because the power structure is so vast.

Tom have you seen any research that shows that priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than any other profession?  The only data I can find just state that sexual abusers are much more likely to be male, but I'm interested to know if you've seen more detailed findings. 


The_Soulful_Mr_T said:
Disgusting. Criminal. And nothing of real impact will be done. 
And Trumpf wants to start a Religious Protection Force. And deny the separation of church and state. The founders anticipated exactly this.

Unbelievable. 
Tax the Churches. Better, shutter the churches. Mine, too.
Close the mosques. Shut the synagogues. Burn down the churches. Send the clergy to re-education camps. Jail the criminal clergy.

Freedom for all people. Freedom FROM religion.

 Run for office and I'll campaign for you.

My family came from a mixed bag of religions but the Catholic Church was the religion that kind of won out. At 14 I asked what the church had done to stand up to Hitler. I asked what the church was doing during the civil rights movement. Then I announced that I would no longer go to church. My mother understood my position, and accepted my decision. I did have to finish Catholic high school.


This morning I wondered why people don't rally outside of their local Catholic Churches and demand justice.



Then there is the physical, non sexual abuse. I believe I posted here in the past about the nun in Springfield who slammed a kid against the hallway tiles. Kid was bloody and taken out by rescue squad.


The kid's offense was not answering the Catechism question correctly.


finnegan said:


Tom_Reingold said:
We still don't have a lot of insight into why priests do this more than other people, and it seems to be the case. For all I know, it could be because the power structure is so vast.
Tom have you seen any research that shows that priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than any other profession?  The only data I can find just state that sexual abusers are much more likely to be male, but I'm interested to know if you've seen more detailed findings. 

     I am not personally aware of  any studies of sexual abuse of children which specifically explored the occupations of offenders....although there may be some.  Because opportunity is a key element of abuse, professionals such as teachers, doctors, and others who have direct access to children tend to be prime suspects/perpetrators.   Perhaps the best known study concerning sexual abuse by educators was done in 2003 by Charol Shakeshaft of Hofsta University on behalf of the Dept of Education.  https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.doc   

     Shakeshaft conducted a secondary reanalysis of data collected from 2,063 surveys of public school students in grades 8 to 11 across the nation by the American Association of University Women.  "Because of its carefully drawn sample and survey methodology, the AAUW report that nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career presents the most accurate data available at this time."  According to a related article in Education Week, Shakeshaft concluded that "despite the limitations of the existing research base, the scope of the problem appears to far exceed the priest abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church". https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2004/03/10/26abuse.h23.html    Some contend that  - as did the Catholic Church - school districts and unions have been mutually complicit in pursuing confidential agreements in favor of criminal prosecution.  This has enabled fired teachers to find work in other states and districts.  See the following article from USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/22/teachers-who-sexually-abuse-students-still-find-classroom-jobs/95346790/

   I am not writing this as an indictment of teachers because the vast majority are not involved in any such activity.  And, after all, I am a university faculty member and we've certainly got our own problems!  Nor am I trying to make excuses for the Catholic Church.  But I do find the parallels between abusive priests & the Catholic Church and abusive teachers & school systems/unions to be interesting.   Abuse by anyone is a horrible life changing act that should be result in criminal prosecution....priests, teachers, doctors, coaches...anyone.


Norman_Bates said:


finnegan said:

Tom_Reingold said:
We still don't have a lot of insight into why priests do this more than other people, and it seems to be the case. For all I know, it could be because the power structure is so vast.
Tom have you seen any research that shows that priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than any other profession?  The only data I can find just state that sexual abusers are much more likely to be male, but I'm interested to know if you've seen more detailed findings. 
     I am not personally aware of  any studies of sexual abuse of children which specifically explored the occupations of offenders....although there may be some.  Because opportunity is a key element of abuse, professionals such as teachers, doctors, and others who have direct access to children tend to be prime suspects/perpetrators.   Perhaps the best known study concerning sexual abuse by educators was done in 2003 by Charol Shakeshaft of Hofsta University on behalf of the Dept of Education.  https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.doc   
     Shakeshaft conducted a secondary reanalysis of data collected from 2,063 surveys of public school students in grades 8 to 11 across the nation by the American Association of University Women.  "Because of its carefully drawn sample and survey methodology, the AAUW report that nearly 9.6 percent of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career presents the most accurate data available at this time."  According to a related article in Education Week, Shakeshaft concluded that "despite the limitations of the existing research base, the scope of the problem appears to far exceed the priest abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church". https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2004/03/10/26abuse.h23.html    Some contend that  - as did the Catholic Church - school districts and unions have been mutually complicit in pursuing confidential agreements in favor of criminal prosecution.  This has enabled fired teachers to find work in other states and districts.  See the following article from USA Today:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/12/22/teachers-who-sexually-abuse-students-still-find-classroom-jobs/95346790/
   I am not writing this as an indictment of teachers because the vast majority are not involved in any such activity.  And, after all, I am a university faculty member and we've certainly got our own problems!  Nor am I trying to make excuses for the Catholic Church.  But I do find the parallels between abusive priests & the Catholic Church and abusive teachers & school systems/unions to be interesting.   Abuse by anyone is a horrible life changing act that should be result in criminal prosecution....priests, teachers, doctors, coaches...anyone.

 Thank you, Norman_Bates.


I know of two instances in the district where I was employed. Both took place before in the '60s, before I was hired but the events were talked about by faculty for years after. One involved a parent returning home early and finding teacher and home tutor in bed. A second teacher's letters to his student were found by a parent.

In both cases, the teachers were allowed to resign.


Formerlyjerseyjack said:
Then there is the physical, non sexual abuse. I believe I posted here in the past about the nun in Springfield who slammed a kid against the hallway tiles. Kid was bloody and taken out by rescue squad.


The kid's offense was not answering the Catechism question correctly.

Better a beatdown than to suffer the eternal damnation of hell. Or maybe she's just a sadist. 

Anyway, thoughts and prayers to the child.  long face 


Is it me or was anyone ever abused by a nun? I'm very serious. No one ever discussed this. Like it never happened.


Formerlyjerseyjack said:
Then there is the physical, non sexual abuse. I believe I posted here in the past about the nun in Springfield who slammed a kid against the hallway tiles. Kid was bloody and taken out by rescue squad.

The kid's offense was not answering the Catechism question correctly.


When I was in parochial grammar school, corporal punishment by the nuns was still the norm. When I've looked back on it, I realized the consequences of even just witnessing it resulted in long-term negative implications for both me and my siblings.  I developed a serious anxiety condition that would flare up every time I had to attend services in a cathedral of any kind and/or other structures with high ceilings.  At its worse, this condition also emerged in the proximity of tall buildings; skyscrapers.  I felt as if the ceiling or building was going to fall on me and I'd break out in cold sweats.

On the first Fridays of the month, we had to attend Mass.  Because of the old restriction against eating before taking Communion, children would invariably pass out cold in the pews.  It made such a terrible sound as their unconscious body fell between the pew and the kneeler.  (If they were lucky, the kneelers -- if in the "down" position -- would break the fall before their heads hit the marble floor.)  The priest would continue the ritual of the Mass while the child would be retrieved and carried out to the rear of the church. The fainters weren't punished. I sometimes entertained the idea of just giving into the anxiety attacks I was having and pass it off as a hunger fainting spell.

I was never struck by the nuns, but I wasn't spared psychological humiliation bad enough to make me prefer the wooden paddle.

One unforgettable example of the abuse on a classmate:

My second grade nun kept a huge preserves jar filled with all sorts of noxious-looking matter.  It looked like Pepto-Bismol mixed with tiny shrimps, potting soil, or what appeared to be bits of dark green vegetables such as brocoli.  The nun referred to it as her "worm medicine" and would dispense it as needed.  The first week of the school year a classmate -- a girl -- got the first dose. The nun forcibly held the child in her lap, forced the child's mouth open and inserted a spoonful of the monstrous concoction.  Almost immediately the girl violently retched and vomited.  The janitor had to be summoned with his sawdust box for clean-up.  Right in the middle of the pool of pink upchuck, lay my brand new, faux alligator-skin pencil case.  It was wiped off and returned to me, but I threw it away.  

Other specialties:  getting your ears boxed; getting struck with wooden, metal-edged rulers; getting your head slammed into the blackboard if you hesitated in writing down the correct answer -- this was usually inflicted on boys; getting pulled and/or yanked by your ear or hair if you were a girl; getting cracked on your skull by the black board pointer. 

Sorry for the long "regurgitation," but the memories suddenly washed over me.  At that time the priests, bishops, cardinals and nuns were *never* questioned.  Parents didn't complain about their child being beaten because if they did it meant expulsion from the school.  As the nuns always reminded us:  "This is not a democracy!"  



There was a report today of a retiring bishop in a California parish. The parish was supposed to be dedicated to the poor. Bishop retired to a 2m$  house. 


Reminded me of the bishop in Newark Arch-diocese who retired to a house with an elevator. 

Something, something, needles and camels.  Oh, that right. You shouldn't accumulate wealth. You should give it to the church.

Why do people continue to give money to these frauds.


finnegan said:


Tom_Reingold said:
We still don't have a lot of insight into why priests do this more than other people, and it seems to be the case. For all I know, it could be because the power structure is so vast.
Tom have you seen any research that shows that priests are more likely to sexually abuse children than any other profession?  The only data I can find just state that sexual abusers are much more likely to be male, but I'm interested to know if you've seen more detailed findings. 

 No, I haven't studied this. The #MeToo movement has shown us that abuse of women is widespread among many industries. It's possible we will learn that abuse of children is spread wider than clergy. But we haven't. So far as we know, it's priests doing this. If you have evidence of something else, let us know. If you don't, let us accept that priests are the problem.


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