2019 Baseball Hall of Fame Vote is Revealed 1/22

mfpark

The complete list of players on the BBWAA Hall of Fame ballot:

Barry Bonds
Chris Carpenter
Roger Clemens
Johnny Damon
Vladimir Guerrero
Livan Hernandez
Trevor Hoffman
Orlando Hudson
Aubrey Huff
Jason Isringhausen
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
Jeff Kent
Carlos Lee
Brad Lidge
Edgar Martinez
Hideki Matsui
Fred McGriff
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Mike Mussina
Manny Ramirez
Scott Rolen
Johan Santana
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
Jim Thome
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano


mfpark

Gonna be some fun arguments this year.  Beyond the usual steroids group of Clemens, Bonds, Ramirez, Sosa.

Is a great glove good enough for Vizquel to get a lot of votes?  I hope not.  Certainly not going to get in anytime soon.

Will Thome get tarred for playing in the steroid era even though I have not seen him linked to PEDs?  My guess is, yes.   Then there is the DH factor.  If Martinez has not gotten in yet, why would Thome?  Well, there are all those homers, but.....steroid era?   I think Thome is a few years from serious consideration by enough voters.

Chipper Jones is likely a first time entry, perhaps they will make him wait until next year.



yahooyahoo

Some of the names are baffling.  Hideki Matsui?  What a joke.


mikescott

Agree that Chipper will probably get in on  first try.

I disagree about Vizquel and think it is about time the HOF recognize great defensive players as well as great offensive players.  

I feel Bonds and Clemens should be in HOF.  

Thome and Martinez should also get in based on the position they play.  


mfpark


yahooyahoo said:

Some of the names are baffling.  Hideki Matsui?  What a joke.

From Baseball Reference  https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Hall_of_Fame

Election By The Writers:

A player is eligible for election to the Baseball Hall of Fame if [the player] satisfies the following criteria:

  • The player must have competed in ten seasons. A single game counts as a "season" in the eyes of the Hall.
  • The player has been retired for at least five seasons. If a player comes back and plays in the major leagues, the clock restarts. The easiest way to figure out the rule is to add six to the last season the player was active. Therefore, players eligible in 2007 played their last game in 2001.
  • A screening committee must approve the player's worthiness. Most players are given a token appearance on the ballot if they meet the ten year rule and they were a regular player for most of that time.
  • The player may not be on the ineligible list (banned from baseball).
  • If a player dies within the five year span, he is eligible six months after his death provided he meets the above criteria. If an active player dies, he is eligible six months after his death.
  • To remain on the ballot, the player must receive at least five percent of the votes for any given year. If a player fails to receive 5%. He falls off the ballot until 16 years after his retirement (see below).
  • A player is considered elected if he receives at least 75% of all ballots cast in an election.

Given this I can see why Matsui is on the ballot.  He will never get a serious whiff of getting in.  But he might steal a few votes from New York writers that could have gone to Thome or Martinez, for example.


mfpark

I will add that I think Hoffman should be in, and Vlad Guerrero should not.  Vlad belongs in the Hall of Really Good Players but, then again, there are any number of such players in the HOF so perhaps his being such a good source of quotes will earn him the favor of the BBWofA members with long memories.


mfpark

I absolutely think that Palmiero (no longer eligible), Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and Sheffield belong.  Excluding them would be like excluding the dead ball era players who did not wrack up big numbers for power.  The steroid era was still a part of the history, and these players excelled above others who likely were doping at the same time but were not exposed.

Same concept goes for relievers.  Sure, the best only pitch one inning a game.  But they are among the most crucial players for a team in the modern era.  A team without a great reliever will likely not be a great team.  And same for DH players--they are part of the history and reality, and clearly some are superstars at this position, even if one thinks like a National League hardass.


yahooyahoo


mfpark said:



yahooyahoo said:

Some of the names are baffling.  Hideki Matsui?  What a joke.


  • A screening committee must approve the player's worthiness. Most players are given a token appearance on the ballot if they meet the ten year rule and they were a regular player for most of that time.


They are really stretching on some of those players.


ska

mfpark, I think David Ortiz will likely make the Hall in not too many years after first eligible.


ml1


mfpark said:

I absolutely think that Palmiero (no longer eligible), Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and Sheffield belong.  Excluding them would be like excluding the dead ball era players who did not wrack up big numbers for power.  The steroid era was still a part of the history, and these players excelled above others who likely were doping at the same time but were not exposed.

completely agree.

I'm also very much inclined to favor induction for anyone who is in the gray areas.  To me, if a guy in the conversation, and a lot of people can make a good argument for him, he should go in.  A guy like Mike Mussina -- he should be in.  There's a very good case to be made for him based on stats other than wins.

That said, aside from the steroid guys who should have been in years ago, Chipper Jones is the only guy on this year's ballot that really jumps out at me as a real HOFer.  Jim Thome also.  But the guy played 22 seasons and only made 5 All-Star teams.  OTOH, he had a career WAR of 73, which is more than Hall-worthy.  We're now having to rethink some of our criteria for the Hall with the advanced metrics, and just the way we think about the game now.  Thome had a lifetime OBP over .400, which is pretty amazing over 22 seasons.  That plus 600+ homers makes a guy awfully valuable to his team.


ml1


mfpark said:

I will add that I think Hoffman should be in, and Vlad Guerrero should not.  Vlad belongs in the Hall of Really Good Players but, then again, there are any number of such players in the HOF so perhaps his being such a good source of quotes will earn him the favor of the BBWofA members with long memories.

Vizquel won 9 Gold Gloves in a row, and 11 overall.  I think that deserves HOF status.


yahooyahoo

I would vote for Vlad.  Lifetime .318 average, 9x all-star, MVP, over 2500 hits and nearly 450 home runs.  He's in that statistical zone where the vote could go either way.

ml1 said:



mfpark said:

I will add that I think Hoffman should be in, and Vlad Guerrero should not.  Vlad belongs in the Hall of Really Good Players but, then again, there are any number of such players in the HOF so perhaps his being such a good source of quotes will earn him the favor of the BBWofA members with long memories.

Vizquel won 9 Gold Gloves in a row, and 11 overall.  I think that deserves HOF status.



ska

He is 55 on the list of highest career batting averages, 40 all time home run. I would vote to put Guerrero in the hall.


ml1

Oops. I quoted the wrong post. I wouldn't argue against Guerrero. He's another guy who could have been even better if not for injuries. 

yahooyahoo said:

I would vote for Vlad.  Lifetime .318 average, 9x all-star, MVP, over 2500 hits and nearly 450 home runs.  He's in that statistical zone where the vote could go either way.
ml1 said:



mfpark said:

I will add that I think Hoffman should be in, and Vlad Guerrero should not.  Vlad belongs in the Hall of Really Good Players but, then again, there are any number of such players in the HOF so perhaps his being such a good source of quotes will earn him the favor of the BBWofA members with long memories.

Vizquel won 9 Gold Gloves in a row, and 11 overall.  I think that deserves HOF status.



DaveSchmidt

C. Jones (Don’t forget: He was born a Larry.)

Guerrero (Don’t forget: Fantastic outfielder with a sniper arm.)

Thome (Don’t forget: When he stepped to the plate, you dropped everything to watch.)

Vizquel (Don’t forget: 2,877 hits.)


mfpark

Ok, I am convinced on Guerrero (who also was one of the great all-time interviews) and Vizquel.

Too bad the HOF ignores my votes each year.


mfpark

December 10, at the Winter Meetings, the Modern Baseball Committee will announce if any of the following players from the 1970-1987 era will be elected to the HOF.  None were elected during the regular BBWAA process.  There are some really good players on the list who have created a ton of disagreements when they were on the regular ballots. 

  • Tommy John
  • Steve Garvey
  • Don Mattingly
  • Marvin Miller (union head)
  • Jack Morris
  • Dale Murphy
  • Dave Parker
  • Luis Tiant
  • Ted Simmons
  • Alan Trammell

This era will not be considered again until 2019.  In 2018 the Today's Game committee will review players from 1988 to the present who did not get in through the BBWAA regular process.


yahooyahoo

Tommy John. He has over 280 wins and he revolutionized the most important medical procedure in baseball history.


DaveSchmidt

There’s a really good non-player on that list, too. For heaven’s sake, baseball, do the right thing and enshrine one of the most influential figures in American sports history.


RobB

I don’t understand excluding the PED guys. Manny and Roger were both funneling HGH like Natty Light in a frat house. Seems fair to me. 


ml1


DaveSchmidt said:

There’s a really good non-player on that list, too. For heaven’s sake, baseball, do the right thing and enshrine one of the most influential figures in American sports history.

mostly it seems that spite has been keeping Miller out of the HoF.  Seems as though he wore his exclusion as something of a badge of honor during his lifetime. Or at the very least, he didn't dwell on the snub, and actually asked the Hall to take his name out of consideration.

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/7608/prospectus-qa-marvin-miller/

but it's a travesty that he hasn't been inducted yet.


ml1


yahooyahoo said:

Tommy John. He has over 280 wins and he revolutionized the most important medical procedure in baseball history.

Maybe they should induct Frank Jobe instead.


yahooyahoo

They could induct both.

ml1 said:



yahooyahoo said:

Tommy John. He has over 280 wins and he revolutionized the most important medical procedure in baseball history.

Maybe they should induct Frank Jobe instead.



ml1

as I've written above, I'm pretty generous about who should be in the Hall, but I don't think John makes the cut.  Pitching in the big leagues for 26 seasons is a pretty great feat.  But I wouldn't vote a guy in for longevity.  He was a very good pitcher for a number of years, but he was also a mediocre pitcher for the last 7-8 seasons.  He won 230 games, but he also lost 231 games.  Some of his stats like ERA look better today because he pitched in a weak-hitting era.  Here are the keys to me -- he only made 4 All-Star teams in 26 seasons, and he only received Cy Young votes in 4 seasons.

yahooyahoo said:

They could induct both.
ml1 said:



yahooyahoo said:

Tommy John. He has over 280 wins and he revolutionized the most important medical procedure in baseball history.

Maybe they should induct Frank Jobe instead.



yahooyahoo

288 wins and 231 losses

#26 on the all-time wins list.  Only two pitchers ahead of him on the list are not in the HOF, Clemens and Bobby Matthews.

162 complete games and 46 shutouts.

ml1 said:

as I've written above, I'm pretty generous about who should be in the Hall, but I don't think John makes the cut.  Pitching in the big leagues for 26 seasons is a pretty great feat.  But I wouldn't vote a guy in for longevity.  He was a very good pitcher for a number of years, but he was also a mediocre pitcher for the last 7-8 seasons.  He won 230 games, but he also lost 231 games.  Some of his stats like ERA look better today because he pitched in a weak-hitting era.  Here are the keys to me -- he only made 4 All-Star teams in 26 seasons, and he only received Cy Young votes in 4 seasons.
yahooyahoo said:

They could induct both.
ml1 said:



yahooyahoo said:

Tommy John. He has over 280 wins and he revolutionized the most important medical procedure in baseball history.

Maybe they should induct Frank Jobe instead.



DaveSchmidt

My first reaction to that list is: “Man, those were some great players.” Then I consider a parallel list from a slightly different era I partly witnessed, like this ...

Bert Blyleven, Al Oliver, Tony Oliva, Curt Flood, Vida Blue, Dick Allen, Roger Maris, Jim Kaat, Thurman Munson, Mickey Lolich. 

... and my second reaction is: “There are a lot of great players.”


ml1

those are stat from a different era when guys completed games.  Among his peers, during his career, he wasn't considered a standout, as witnessed by the fact that he was almost never an All-Star.

If you think longevity is a sufficient criterion for induction, then John is a shoo-in.  Very few players have ever played as long.  Personally I don't think pretty good for a very long time gets a guy in the HoF.  But if someone wants to argue it should, I think it's a reasonable argument.

yahooyahoo said:

288 wins and 231 losses

#26 on the all-time wins list.  Only two pitchers ahead of him on the list are not in the HOF, Clemens and Bobby Matthews.

162 complete games and 46 shutouts.

ml1


DaveSchmidt said:

My first reaction to that list is: “Man, those were some great players.” Then I consider a parallel list from a slightly different era I partly witnessed, like this ...

Bert Blyleven, Al Oliver, Tony Oliva, Curt Flood, Vida Blue, Dick Allen, Roger Maris, Jim Kaat, Thurman Munson, Mickey Lolich. 

... and my second reaction is: “There are a lot of great players.”

the main criterion for the vast majority of guys who are in the HoF seems to be excellence sustained over a long period of time (a dozen years or more).  Being very good for a very long time usually doesn't get a guy in, and being excellent for a relatively short period of time doesn't get a guy in.

If you want to make a list of guys who were at the top of the sport for a relatively short time (approx 5 seasons), you have a list of some pretty great players.  But are they Hall of Famers?  I don't think so:

  • Ron Guidry
  • Don Mattingly
  • Dwight Gooden
  • Vida Blue
  • Jim Bunning

When David Wright retires, he'll be on that list. From 2005-2012 he was an All-Star six times, won 2 Gold Gloves, received votes for MVP six times (4 times among the top 10 vote getters), hit 190 HRs, and stole 179 bases.  But if he retired tomorrow is he a Hall of Famer?  No.


Train_of_Thought


ml1 said:

When David Wright retires, he'll be on that list. From 2005-2012 he was an All-Star six times, won 2 Gold Gloves, received votes for MVP six times (4 times among the top 10 vote getters), hit 190 HRs, and stole 179 bases.  But if he retired tomorrow is he a Hall of Famer?  No.

Good idea, can you pleeeeeease get David Wright to retire tomorrow? ;-)



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