Yes, it was Comey that did us in - he knew about these Russian revelations months ago. But - EMAILS!!

It's pretty clear now that Comey's last minute attempt to prevent himself from being criticized by those nasty Republicans is what turned the election to Trump.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/james-comey-decided-who-our-next-president-would-be

The evidence is clear, and consistent, regarding the Comey effect. The
timing of the shift both at the state and national levels lines up very
neatly with the publication of the letter, as does the predominance of
the story in the media coverage from the final week of the campaign.
With an unusually large number of undecided voters late in the campaign,
the letter hugely increased the salience of what was the defining
critique of Clinton during the campaign at its most critical moment.

And save your head-in-the-sand comments about getting over it. You either want to learn how things happen, or you don't.

Trump is illegitimate for a number of reasons, Comey chief among them. Then there's DJT's campaign contacts with Russia. Yup, HRC was a flawed candidate. We know.

You need to get past your PTSD and stop reliving the past. The election and all that preceded it is over. The horse has left the barn.

Gilgul said:

You need to get past your PTSD and stop reliving the past. The election and all that preceded it is over. The hirse hearse has left the barn.

FTFY.

The horse may have left but the horse **** remains

Perhaps relevant:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/politics/doj-watchdog-launches-probe-into-handling-of-clinton-email-investigation/index.html

nothing will change that Trump will be President next Friday. The election of Trump was not solely because of Comey. We need to heal now, stop looking for all the things that went wrong. If Trump fails, the USA fails and I can't be a part of that. I love this place too much. We need to call out things that shouldn't be happening, stand up for our brothers and sisters and protect our rights but we also need to hope Trump will do a decent job or we are doomed. I was as devastated as anyone but I can't spend the next 4 years thinking 1/2 of the country is my enemy or looking back or "poor me'ing". I'll get involved, I'll stand up but I can't live in sadness.

Anyone watch Blackish last night? I thought it was a fantastic episode and sort of summed up well how I feel and sort of gave a great perspective on what's next.

conandrob240 said:

nothing will change that Trump will be President next Friday. The election of Trump was not solely because of Comey. We need to heal now, stop looking for all the things that went wrong. If Trump fails, the USA fails and I can't be a part of that. I love this place too much. We need to call out things that shouldn't be happening, stand up for our brothers and sisters and protect our rights but we also need to hope Trump will do a decent job or we are doomed. I was as devastated as anyone but I can't spend the next 4 years thinking 1/2 of the country is my enemy or looking back or "poor me'ing". I'll get involved, I'll stand up but I can't live in sadness.

Anyone watch Blackish last night? I thought it was a fantastic episode and sort of summed up well how I feel and sort of gave a great perspective on what's next.

I watched it. It's a TV Show and they tried to put on a positive spin.

But Trump is a bad guy. If he succeeds in what he and his allies and appointees want then the USA will fail. The negative effects of Global Warming will remain unchecked. The living standards of most will decline. Racial antagonism will grow worse. We will be less free.

Healing? It's not up to us to "heal now". The only one who could possible heal the divisions in this country is Trump and he does not believe in healing. He believes in "making America great again" and his vision of greatness is a nightmare.

yeah. no.

first of all, why should we not look at the things that went wrong? I don't understand that at all. Don't we need to learn from the past?

Secondly - hope all you want - Trump will not do a decent job. It's simply not possible for him to do so. He's damaged. He will either be stopped somehow, or the country is headed for the toilet.

Thirdly - we live in a country where 10's of millions made an incomprehensibly stupid mistake. They may not be enemies, but they are not people that I can't even begin to understand anymore.

conandrob240 said:

nothing will change that Trump will be President next Friday. The election of Trump was not solely because of Comey. We need to heal now, stop looking for all the things that went wrong. If Trump fails, the USA fails and I can't be a part of that. I love this place too much. We need to call out things that shouldn't be happening, stand up for our brothers and sisters and protect our rights but we also need to hope Trump will do a decent job or we are doomed. I was as devastated as anyone but I can't spend the next 4 years thinking 1/2 of the country is my enemy or looking back or "poor me'ing". I'll get involved, I'll stand up but I can't live in sadness.

Anyone watch Blackish last night? I thought it was a fantastic episode and sort of summed up well how I feel and sort of gave a great perspective on what's next.

Bad guy or not, he is our President on Friday. Yes, it is up to us to heal to a certain extent. Stop crying, stop trying to point fingers at Comey or Putin or whatever. Think about what got us here, why and how we can get more involved and take action to make a better life for each other. If you are sitting around waiting for Trump to fail, you are essentially looking for America to fail. We are stronger than Trump. We are better than Trump and one person cannot take down a whole country. we will get through this. We can hope Trump succeeds, settle for him not doing too much damage and get rid of him in 4 years. That's the best we can hope for.

I don't think blackish tried to just put a positive spin, I think they showed the pain but gave a place to start healing from. I loved the part about not believing 50% of the country was stupid or ***$&@s and maybe trying to understand what got them there. I have been guilty of hating on/being really angry at 1/2 of America and maybe that's unfair and too simplistic. Obama's line about stop fighting over the internet struck me too. Let's start a dialogue not about if it's Comeys fault or how evil Trump is but about why 1/2 our country was suffering enough to vote for this man.

Conan I understand where you're coming from and I agree with some of what you say.

However I view the investigation of Comey and the FBI leading up to the election as a good development. If agency policies were violated it should be known and corrected. Consequences should be meted out as warranted and the rule of law should be on display. I know it won't reverse the election (my attempts at time travel are not bearing fruit just yet, and even if I can get back to November 7th I don't know what to do!) but it will demonstrate that the our system of government is still working.

I agree with @LOST. This isn't a time to shrug our shoulders and say the election's over and let's just see how it goes. We have real and dangerous signs of the threat to our democracy right in front of us. I'm reminded of how the Tea Party moved in on the GOP and took over. The GOP used them to gain favor - they thought it was in their best interest because they gained in popularity, but then seemed to realize that they were uncontrollable, didn't play by the rules and didn't tow the party line. They're doing the same thing with Trump - using him to gain favor and majority and push their **** through. But, Trump doesn't care about them or their agendas. He cares about whatever serves him and his business organization.

He's never, in his entire life, showed an interest in public service. Not once....always self-service. Nothing has changed. He was just put in the position of the highest form of public service. Someone who has no interest in serving the public. I can't think about it for too long because it's mind-numbing.

Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

mrincredible said:

Conan I understand where you're coming from and I agree with some of what you say.

However I view the investigation of Comey and the FBI leading up to the election as a good development. If agency policies were violated it should be known and corrected. Consequences should be meted out as warranted and the rule of law should be on display. I know it won't reverse the election (my attempts at time travel are not bearing fruit just yet, and even if I can get back to November 7th I don't know what to do!) but it will demonstrate that the our system of government is still working.

Agree with this. We have to look at the impact of these occurrences on our system of democracy and justice; not just by candidate impact.

TigerLilly said:

I agree with @LOST. This isn't a time to shrug our shoulders and say the election's over and let's just see how it goes. We have real and dangerous signs of the threat to our democracy right in front of us. I'm reminded of how the Tea Party moved in on the GOP and took over. The GOP used them to gain favor - they thought it was in their best interest because they gained in popularity, but then seemed to realize that they were uncontrollable, didn't play by the rules and didn't tow the party line. They're doing the same thing with Trump - using him to gain favor and majority and push their **** through. But, Trump doesn't care about them or their agendas. He cares about whatever serves him and his business organization.

He's never, in his entire life, showed an interest in public service. Not once....always self-service. Nothing has changed. He was just put in the position of the highest form of public service. Someone who has no interest in serving the public. I can't think about it for too long because it's mind-numbing.

I agree that present and future opposition to Trump is warranted. But is not productive to go back and reargue the election itself on Comey or Russia. There are bumps along the path to any election victory. The candidate on the Democratic line running against DJT should have been able to overcome just about anything.

What exactly are we supposed to heal, and how does one go about doing that, without pretending that Trump is not nuts?

He deserves not one iota of support from Democrats. Not one single bit. He needs to be opposed 100 percent.

Gilgul said:

Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

This is apt. We can point to many factors (fathers) that caused the results, and be right each time. The important question is, what do we do now? I'm not looking to overturn the election or even call it legally illegitimate. There is enough material for taking the baby man down before his four years are up. There is also a lot of work to be done with stopping the Republican agenda.

how do you overcome 25 years of baseless accusations and political witch hunts? Has any politician ever been subjected to the crap Hillary has been subjected to?

OF COURSE it's productive to go over the vagaries of the election. Anything that serves to tell the truth about the election and deligitimize Trump is worth it.

If we simply accept what happened, it will happen again. Simple as that.

Gilgul said:

TigerLilly said:

I agree with @LOST. This isn't a time to shrug our shoulders and say the election's over and let's just see how it goes. We have real and dangerous signs of the threat to our democracy right in front of us. I'm reminded of how the Tea Party moved in on the GOP and took over. The GOP used them to gain favor - they thought it was in their best interest because they gained in popularity, but then seemed to realize that they were uncontrollable, didn't play by the rules and didn't tow the party line. They're doing the same thing with Trump - using him to gain favor and majority and push their **** through. But, Trump doesn't care about them or their agendas. He cares about whatever serves him and his business organization.

He's never, in his entire life, showed an interest in public service. Not once....always self-service. Nothing has changed. He was just put in the position of the highest form of public service. Someone who has no interest in serving the public. I can't think about it for too long because it's mind-numbing.

I agree that present and future opposition to Trump is warranted. But is not productive to go back and reargue the election itself on Comey or Russia. There are bumps along the path to any election victory. The candidate on the Democratic line running against DJT should have been able to overcome just about anything.

if you are in a car speeding toward a cliff, it's not rooting for failure to point out that your car is speeding toward a cliff.

drummerboy said:

how do you overcome 25 years of baseless accusations and political witch hunts? Has any politician ever been subjected to the crap Hillary has been subjected to?

OF COURSE it's productive to go over the vagaries of the election. Anything that serves to tell the truth about the election and deligitimize Trump is worth it.

If we simply accept what happened, it will happen again. Simple as that.

Gilgul said:

TigerLilly said:

I agree with @LOST. This isn't a time to shrug our shoulders and say the election's over and let's just see how it goes. We have real and dangerous signs of the threat to our democracy right in front of us. I'm reminded of how the Tea Party moved in on the GOP and took over. The GOP used them to gain favor - they thought it was in their best interest because they gained in popularity, but then seemed to realize that they were uncontrollable, didn't play by the rules and didn't tow the party line. They're doing the same thing with Trump - using him to gain favor and majority and push their **** through. But, Trump doesn't care about them or their agendas. He cares about whatever serves him and his business organization.

He's never, in his entire life, showed an interest in public service. Not once....always self-service. Nothing has changed. He was just put in the position of the highest form of public service. Someone who has no interest in serving the public. I can't think about it for too long because it's mind-numbing.

I agree that present and future opposition to Trump is warranted. But is not productive to go back and reargue the election itself on Comey or Russia. There are bumps along the path to any election victory. The candidate on the Democratic line running against DJT should have been able to overcome just about anything.

I agree with drummerboy on this. If we suspect or know there was a recent injustice in the system, we should do what we can to prevent it from being commonplace.

If it really is this easy for foreign governments to create fake news and sucker half of us then I want it to be well known and investigated so that we can learn to prevent it.

No one said shrug your shoulders and of course look into the Russian hacking, voting practices and anything that can make the future better but we've got to stop the "what if" and the waiting for the Bozo to fail and the disgust of our friends/family/fellow citizens who voted for him. It does us no good. How can we help this man succeed while holding him accountable for not f'in up the country? And what can we do to keep this from ever happening again?

If you are in a car speeding towards a cliff, you can say "that jackass he drives too fast, look what he's done" or you can say "watch the cliff". I think a lot of us are doing the former.

ml1 said:

if you are in a car speeding toward a cliff, it's not rooting for failure to point out that your car is speeding toward a cliff.

there is no way to "help him succeed." Look at the people he's appointing to his cabinet.

What would "success" look like in a Trump administration? The end of ACA? Tax cuts for the wealthiest? The elimination of enforcement of environmental and workplace regulation? No enforcement of voting rights violations?

The best we can hope for is that his term isn't a disaster.

For me, "success" would mean no nuclear war.

TigerLilly said:

drummerboy said:

how do you overcome 25 years of baseless accusations and political witch hunts? Has any politician ever been subjected to the crap Hillary has been subjected to?

OF COURSE it's productive to go over the vagaries of the election. Anything that serves to tell the truth about the election and deligitimize Trump is worth it.

If we simply accept what happened, it will happen again. Simple as that.

Gilgul said:

TigerLilly said:

I agree with @LOST. This isn't a time to shrug our shoulders and say the election's over and let's just see how it goes. We have real and dangerous signs of the threat to our democracy right in front of us. I'm reminded of how the Tea Party moved in on the GOP and took over. The GOP used them to gain favor - they thought it was in their best interest because they gained in popularity, but then seemed to realize that they were uncontrollable, didn't play by the rules and didn't tow the party line. They're doing the same thing with Trump - using him to gain favor and majority and push their **** through. But, Trump doesn't care about them or their agendas. He cares about whatever serves him and his business organization.

He's never, in his entire life, showed an interest in public service. Not once....always self-service. Nothing has changed. He was just put in the position of the highest form of public service. Someone who has no interest in serving the public. I can't think about it for too long because it's mind-numbing.

I agree that present and future opposition to Trump is warranted. But is not productive to go back and reargue the election itself on Comey or Russia. There are bumps along the path to any election victory. The candidate on the Democratic line running against DJT should have been able to overcome just about anything.

I agree with drummerboy on this. If we suspect or know there was a recent injustice in the system, we should do what we can to prevent it from being commonplace.

it isn't crazy after what's happened to suggest that the FBI may have been working to undermine Clinton and the CIA may be working to undermine Trump. These are the kind of activities that need to be investigated, and if true punished to the extent of the law.

conandrob240 said:

Bad guy or not, he is our President on Friday. Yes, it is up to us to heal to a certain extent. Stop crying, stop trying to point fingers at Comey or Putin or whatever. Think about what got us here, why and how we can get more involved and take action to make a better life for each other. If you are sitting around waiting for Trump to fail, you are essentially looking for America to fail. We are stronger than Trump. We are better than Trump and one person cannot take down a whole country. we will get through this. We can hope Trump succeeds, settle for him not doing too much damage and get rid of him in 4 years. That's the best we can hope for.

If you said that to the Republicans 8 years ago they would have laughed at you, or maybe attacked you for being a tool of Obama and the Liberals.

At that very time I asked a hardcore Conservative participant on MOL to tell me anything Obama could do that he would agree with and his answer was "Resign".

conandrob240 said:

How can we help this man succeed while holding him accountable for not f'in up the country?

Succeed at what?

Success to me also is Trump doing little damage. It's a "get out of it alive" hope.

I don't know what heal looks like but I also know I can't live 4 years being angry and bitter and waiting for our president (and our country) to fail.

For me, success would mean any of the following:

• He is impeached and forced to resign within the first two years.
• Republican legislators turn against him.
• We vote in an overwhelmingly Democrat House and Senate during the mid-terms.
• 90% of the country wakes up and realizes what we have done, and the next 24 years the executive and legislative branches are fully D.

if the cars going off the cliff, what are your options? You can yell at the driver for what an *** he is (and go over the cliff) you can warn the driver , you can hit the brakes yourself. Which are you doing?