Write in GERARD W RYAN - Not a PO Thread

krnl said:
+10


nohero said:


joan_crystal said:
Those of us planning on writing in Gerard W Ryan for TC are doing so because we firmly believe that he has done an exceptionally fine job on the TC and would be an asset to the town going forward.
If MOL had a "like" button, I would click that for Ms. Crystal's post.

+100

And unless Jerry personally tells me not to, I'm planning to write him in also.


This whole thread reminds me of an old Kingston Trio song where the key line was, "vote for George O'Brien and get poor Charlie off the MTA". LOL

Admit I was surprised that Jerry lost the primary, especially by such a large vote. What happened? It isn't like the reval issue that got him booted the last time he lost.


bobk said:
This whole thread reminds me of an old Kingston Trio song where the key line was, "vote for George O'Brien and get poor Charlie off the MTA". LOL
Admit I was surprised that Jerry lost the primary, especially by such a large vote. What happened? It isn't like the reval issue that got him booted the last time he lost.

The Lembrich campaign had a lot of energy with people going door to door.


And they had the scare tactics and misrepresentation meisters pushing hard through ohnoengageVK


The Election is held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Every citizen over the age of 18 has the right to vote for whomever he/she chooses. That includes people who did not vote in the Democratic Primary because they were not registered Democrats. They may be Republicans or Independents. Or they may be registered Democrats who missed the Primary for whatever reason. The voting machines contain a specific mechanism for write-ins.

As to "respect for the process", The Democratic County Committee chose Adams and Ryan as the candidates. Lembrich put his name forward but was not chosen. Was it disrespecting the process for him to run in the Primary? The answer is "no" because the process allows it and he had every right to do so. The same with a write-in vote at the General Election.

The opponents of the redevelopment plans at the Post Office Site have every right to oppose those plans. What people object to is what they see as dishonest or nasty tactics.

Writing-in GERARD W RYAN is different than slandering Greg Lembrich with lies or suing to get his name off the ballot on made-up grounds.


+1,000 Well said, Lost.


LOST said:
The Election is held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Every citizen over the age of 18 has the right to vote for whomever he/she chooses. That includes people who did not vote in the Democratic Primary because they were not registered Democrats. They may be Republicans or Independents. Or they may be registered Democrats who missed the Primary for whatever reason. The voting machines contain a specific mechanism for write-ins.
As to "respect for the process", The Democratic County Committee chose Adams and Ryan as the candidates. Lembrich put his name forward but was not chosen. Was it disrespecting the process for him to run in the Primary? The answer is "no" because the process allows it and he had every right to do so. The same with a write-in vote at the General Election.
The opponents of the redevelopment plans at the Post Office Site have every right to oppose those plans. What people object to is what they see as dishonest or nasty tactics.
Writing-in GERARD W RYAN is different than slandering Greg Lembrich with lies or suing to get his name off the ballot on made-up grounds.

Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.


ml1 said:

Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.

On one level, as tomdevon noted, there is a comparison that can be made: A write-in campaign is no more, nor less, a part of "the process" than lawsuits, appeals or even the dilatoriest of comments and interrogations at public hearings. If I were in favor of the former and critical of the latter, or vice versa, I'd be asking myself the same question tomdevon raised. I think he may have overlooked or underestimated the role of consequences when making his comparison; most of us draw a line where our belief in process butts up against our worry that it is being exploited at risk to the greater good, even if we have different ideas about where it should be drawn. Still, in my opinion, tomdevon's most striking "work" was his willingness to adjust and qualify his comment as he continued to think about it. Always a pleasure.


Well, Jerry blew me off for the beer festival tonight. So I'm not writing his name in.

Granted I live in South Orange. But the principle is what matters.


DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:

Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.
On one level, as tomdevon noted, there is a comparison that can be made: A write-in campaign is no more, nor less, a part of "the process" than lawsuits, appeals or even the dilatoriest of comments and interrogations at public hearings. If I were in favor of the former and critical of the latter, or vice versa, I'd be asking myself the same question tomdevon raised. I think he may have overlooked or underestimated the role of consequences when making his comparison; most of us draw a line where our belief in process butts up against our worry that it is being exploited at risk to the greater good, even if we have different ideas about where it should be drawn. Still, in my opinion, tomdevon's most striking "work" was his willingness to adjust and qualify his comment as he continued to think about it. Always a pleasure.

spreading misleading and incomplete information isn't part of the process. Neither is filing a baseless lawsuit. a write in vote is absolutely part of the process of voting, and it is in no way an exploitation of the process. it's not comparable to the tactics employed by ohno60/VK.

about the only level it compares is that it is an oppositional tactic. but from an ethical standpoint, there is nothing comparable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkeNd1Ni4Uw&sns=em


DaveSchmidt said:

WkeNd1Ni4Uw

sure the last sentence my opinion. but it's a fact that a write-in vote is by no means an improper use of the ballot. it's also a fact that misinformation and baseless lawsuits are not meant to be a part of the process of approving projects.

let me ask you -- do you really think writing in Jerry Ryan on Election Day is at all comparable to ohno60/VK's actions?

and I forgot to add -- I haven't yet seen anyone accuse Greg Lembrich of the kinds of charges leveled at Ryan and DeLuca -- conflicts of interests, sweetheart deal, etc. Objections to Lembrich have focused on his campaign and his positions.


and one other addition. I know I've brought the "in my opinion" stuff on myself, and now I have to use that qualifier every damn time I post. but I've tried to be pretty scrupulous about indicating such, as in my last post above.

ml1 said:


LOST said:
The Election is held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Every citizen over the age of 18 has the right to vote for whomever he/she chooses. That includes people who did not vote in the Democratic Primary because they were not registered Democrats. They may be Republicans or Independents. Or they may be registered Democrats who missed the Primary for whatever reason. The voting machines contain a specific mechanism for write-ins.
As to "respect for the process", The Democratic County Committee chose Adams and Ryan as the candidates. Lembrich put his name forward but was not chosen. Was it disrespecting the process for him to run in the Primary? The answer is "no" because the process allows it and he had every right to do so. The same with a write-in vote at the General Election.
The opponents of the redevelopment plans at the Post Office Site have every right to oppose those plans. What people object to is what they see as dishonest or nasty tactics.
Writing-in GERARD W RYAN is different than slandering Greg Lembrich with lies or suing to get his name off the ballot on made-up grounds.
Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.

DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:

Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.
On one level, as tomdevon noted, there is a comparison that can be made: A write-in campaign is no more, nor less, a part of "the process" than lawsuits, appeals or even the dilatoriest of comments and interrogations at public hearings. If I were in favor of the former and critical of the latter, or vice versa, I'd be asking myself the same question tomdevon raised. I think he may have overlooked or underestimated the role of consequences when making his comparison; most of us draw a line where our belief in process butts up against our worry that it is being exploited at risk to the greater good, even if we have different ideas about where it should be drawn. Still, in my opinion, tomdevon's most striking "work" was his willingness to adjust and qualify his comment as he continued to think about it. Always a pleasure.

Thanks DaveSchmidt. I agree that my comparison was perhaps not as valid as I initially thought, but still think there is something there. Thanks for articulating it in a more intelligible way than I did.

In any event, I ran into Greg Lembrich yesterday while getting off the same NJT train and mentioned to him that there is an idea floating around for a write-in campaign for Jerry Ryan. His response was (trying to quote as best I can remember), "I heard that too. I'm not worried about my race. People should vote for whomever they want. Most important thing is that they come out and vote for John McKeon and Mila Jasey, who need good turnout in Maplewood and South Orange to be safe in their race. So I'd rather folks come out and vote for Jerry than stay home." So take that for whatever it may be worth to you.

Also, my big remaining concern/objection to writing in Jerry Ryan is that Jerry does not appear to be on board. It's one thing to write in "Mickey Mouse" or another fictitious name to register a protest, but using a real person who is not himself campaigning or otherwise asking for votes strikes me as unseemly. But it's your vote. To each his or her own.


ml1 said:

sure the last sentence my opinion. but it's a fact that a write-in vote is by no means an improper use of the ballot. it's also a fact that misinformation and baseless lawsuits are not meant to be a part of the process of approving projects.
let me ask you -- do you really think writing in Jerry Ryan on Election Day is at all comparable to ohno60/VK's actions?
and I forgot to add -- I haven't yet seen anyone accuse Greg Lembrich of the kinds of charges leveled at Ryan and DeLuca -- conflicts of interests, sweetheart deal, etc. Objections to Lembrich have focused on his campaign and his positions.

Misinformation is sometimes in the eye of the beholder; statements that someone passed along to me as egregious examples by a Post House opponent struck me as mostly understandable efforts to get a message across. Our opinions simply differed. But let's agree that egregious examples do exist. Then let's put those aside, because the comparison to a write-in campaign didn't really encompass efforts like Facebook pages, sidewalk tables or MOL posts so much as legal and governmental processes like lawsuits, appeals and hearings.

On that level -- the use of formal means toward some purpose -- the comparison tomdevon raised seems to me to have some value in generating self-reflection and discussion. To answer your question, no: As I said, I don't think the comparison goes very far. I also think, however, that describing the lawsuit's baselessness as a fact validates this part of the point tomdevon was making: It's as factual as the baselessness (if anybody chooses to describe it that way) of a write-in campaign.

Now see how hard you've made me work?


Wait until Greg is in office. It seems no politician in our town is immune from attacks...

ml1 said:


DaveSchmidt said:

WkeNd1Ni4Uw
sure the last sentence my opinion. but it's a fact that a write-in vote is by no means an improper use of the ballot. it's also a fact that misinformation and baseless lawsuits are not meant to be a part of the process of approving projects.
let me ask you -- do you really think writing in Jerry Ryan on Election Day is at all comparable to ohno60/VK's actions?
and I forgot to add -- I haven't yet seen anyone accuse Greg Lembrich of the kinds of charges leveled at Ryan and DeLuca -- conflicts of interests, sweetheart deal, etc. Objections to Lembrich have focused on his campaign and his positions.

DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:

sure the last sentence my opinion. but it's a fact that a write-in vote is by no means an improper use of the ballot. it's also a fact that misinformation and baseless lawsuits are not meant to be a part of the process of approving projects.
let me ask you -- do you really think writing in Jerry Ryan on Election Day is at all comparable to ohno60/VK's actions?
and I forgot to add -- I haven't yet seen anyone accuse Greg Lembrich of the kinds of charges leveled at Ryan and DeLuca -- conflicts of interests, sweetheart deal, etc. Objections to Lembrich have focused on his campaign and his positions.
Misinformation is sometimes in the eye of the beholder; statements that someone passed along to me as egregious examples by a Post House opponent struck me as mostly understandable efforts to get a message across. Our opinions simply differed. But let's agree that egregious examples do exist. Then let's put those aside, because the comparison to a write-in campaign didn't really encompass efforts like Facebook pages, sidewalk tables or MOL posts so much as legal and governmental processes like lawsuits, appeals and hearings.
On that level -- the use of formal means toward some purpose -- the comparison tomdevon raised seems to me to have some value in generating self-reflection and discussion. To answer your question, no: As I said, I don't think the comparison goes very far. I also think, however, that describing the lawsuit's baselessness as a fact validates this part of the point tomdevon was making: It's as factual as the baselessness (if anybody chooses to describe it that way) of a write-in campaign.
Now see how hard you've made me work?

I truly went into this issue with an open mind. I didn't start by opposing ohno60 and working backwards to find evidence that they were misinforming the public. I stopped by their table, read their handouts. visited their online petition, websites, FB pages. I came to the conclusion that they were being misleading by looking at what they were communicating.

My opinion is that you aren't really as unbiased as you try to let on. I feel like you are working much harder to justify the ohno60/VK efforts than you are to question the information they've put forward.


tomdevon said:


DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:

Agree completely. But it's my opinion that some people are working very hard to try to show an equivalence between ohno60/EM/VK and those of us who object to the PO opponents' tactics.
On one level, as tomdevon noted, there is a comparison that can be made: A write-in campaign is no more, nor less, a part of "the process" than lawsuits, appeals or even the dilatoriest of comments and interrogations at public hearings. If I were in favor of the former and critical of the latter, or vice versa, I'd be asking myself the same question tomdevon raised. I think he may have overlooked or underestimated the role of consequences when making his comparison; most of us draw a line where our belief in process butts up against our worry that it is being exploited at risk to the greater good, even if we have different ideas about where it should be drawn. Still, in my opinion, tomdevon's most striking "work" was his willingness to adjust and qualify his comment as he continued to think about it. Always a pleasure.
Thanks DaveSchmidt. I agree that my comparison was perhaps not as valid as I initially thought, but still think there is something there. Thanks for articulating it in a more intelligible way than I did.
In any event, I ran into Greg Lembrich yesterday while getting off the same NJT train and mentioned to him that there is an idea floating around for a write-in campaign for Jerry Ryan. His response was (trying to quote as best I can remember), "I heard that too. I'm not worried about my race. People should vote for whomever they want. Most important thing is that they come out and vote for John McKeon and Mila Jasey, who need good turnout in Maplewood and South Orange to be safe in their race. So I'd rather folks come out and vote for Jerry than stay home." So take that for whatever it may be worth to you.
Also, my big remaining concern/objection to writing in Jerry Ryan is that Jerry does not appear to be on board. It's one thing to write in "Mickey Mouse" or another fictitious name to register a protest, but using a real person who is not himself campaigning or otherwise asking for votes strikes me as unseemly. But it's your vote. To each his or her own.

maybe you should talk to Jerry before being concerned on his behalf.


ml1 said:


spreading misleading and incomplete information isn't part of the process. Neither is filing a baseless lawsuit. a write in vote is absolutely part of the process of voting, and it is in no way an exploitation of the process. it's not comparable to the tactics employed by ohno60/VK. about the only level it compares is that it is an oppositional tactic. but from an ethical standpoint, there is nothing comparable.

In fairness, I have felt misled by incomplete or biased information from both sides of the debate. Also, as I've explained previously, I do not think that the VK lawsuit was baseless or frivolous (at most, it was unlikely to ultimately prevail). In fact, the relief requested was very narrow, which is how the town was able to moot it so easily. So, "baseless" is clearly your opinion and hardly a fact. That the majority of people on this message board share the same opinion does not convert it to a proven fact.

Further, the critiques here on this thread have criticized Post House opponents for doing things that are within the process, including speaking during public comment periods and appealing the MVA's hardship determination to the PB. Apparently what is a fair part of the process and what is exploiting it are in the eye of the beholder.


ml1 said:


maybe you should talk to Jerry before being concerned on his behalf.

Or maybe you should talk to him before using him as a symbol of protest or running a campaign in his name.


ml1 said:


My opinion is that you aren't really as unbiased as you try to let on. I feel like you are working much harder to justify the ohno60/VK efforts than you are to question the information they've put forward.

Comments like this make it very hard to trust any "facts" on this subject on this message board. Whenever someone tries to present a balanced comment or dares question the groupthink, they risk being labeled as biased.

I'm relatively neutral on the Post House issue; I think it's a underwhelming proposal with lots of problems and that we should probably be able to do better at that prime location, but I also recognize that this process has been ongoing for years and none of the opponents has offered up a workable alternative. My view is that if it gets built, so be it; if it doesn't, then that's no great loss. Maplewood will survive and thrive either way.

My interest in the subject has mainly been with how this issue has really captured the attention of so many people in town and led to more vigorous debate and division than anything I can remember since the reval over a decade ago. The fact that we have multiple citizen groups formed, volunteers getting active, and money being spent on both sides is unusual, and has captured my attention (especially since the issue remains hot even after the primary election, proving that this wasn't just a manufactured campaign issue).

I have no agenda other than to try to get information and share views. DaveSchmidt has been, if anything, even more neutral and rational than I have in his contributions on MOL. I would urge you to back off on questioning his motives or smearing him as biased. It's not a good look.


ml1 said:

My opinion is that you aren't really as unbiased as you try to let on. I feel like you are working much harder to justify the ohno60/VK efforts than you are to question the information they've put forward.

Heh. Intentions sure do get their share of scrutiny around here. Have at 'em (if anybody truly cares one way or the other).

ETA: Appreciate it, tomdevon, but I've got biases like anyone. Never tried to let on otherwise. Happy to let comments speak for themselves, for whatever they are or are not worth.


Gerry is not discouraging folks from writing in his name

tomdevon said:


ml1 said:


maybe you should talk to Jerry before being concerned on his behalf.
Or maybe you should talk to him before using him as a symbol of protest or running a campaign in his name.

tomdevon said:





ml1 said:






My opinion is that you aren't really as unbiased as you try to let on. I feel like you are working much harder to justify the ohno60/VK efforts than you are to question the information they've put forward.
Comments like this make it very hard to trust any "facts" on this subject on this message board. Whenever someone tries to present a balanced comment or dares question the groupthink, they risk being labeled as biased.
I'm relatively neutral on the Post House issue; I think it's a underwhelming proposal with lots of problems and that we should probably be able to do better at that prime location, but I also recognize that this process has been ongoing for years and none of the opponents has offered up a workable alternative. My view is that if it gets built, so be it; if it doesn't, then that's no great loss. Maplewood will survive and thrive either way.
My interest in the subject has mainly been with how this issue has really captured the attention of so many people in town and led to more vigorous debate and division than anything I can remember since the reval over a decade ago. The fact that we have multiple citizen groups formed, volunteers getting active, and money being spent on both sides is unusual, and has captured my attention (especially since the issue remains hot even after the primary election, proving that this wasn't just a manufactured campaign issue).
I have no agenda other than to try to get information and share views. DaveSchmidt has been, if anything, even more neutral and rational than I have in his contributions on MOL. I would urge you to back off on questioning his motives or smearing him as biased. It's not a good look.

I wrote "my opinion" because it's an opinion, not a fact. and I'm not "smearing" him at all. I think I'm being respectful. I haven't called anyone names. On the other hand, I've been accused on this board of hypocrisy and arrogance, and I'm not whining about it. And I think I've been more measured than that when I'm addressing others.

And we're all biased. I haven't come into these discussions in any way presenting myself as unbiased. And (again), my opinion is that some of the people trying to present themselves as unbiased and neutral are working harder to justify ohno60/VK than they are to looking critically at what those groups are doing and saying.

I think to some degree it's a copout to say "both sides do it" or "both sides are alike." Because they're not. Objectively they're not. They're not using the same tactics, organizing the same way, or saying the same kinds of things but just in mirror image. It's easy for one to say one is impartial and above it all. I think it's harder to evaluate everything that's been said and done and come to a conclusion that on balance one group is different than another.

that said, people like me and those who agree with me aren't perfect. We haven't said we are. We've made errors, and some of us have been more emotional and blunt than maybe we should have been. But we've tried to make people aware that a lot of what residents thought they knew about the development was incorrect. And I think we've succeeded in correcting a lot of that incorrect information.


tomdevon said:


ml1 said:


maybe you should talk to Jerry before being concerned on his behalf.
Or maybe you should talk to him before using him as a symbol of protest or running a campaign in his name.

I will. But if Jerry had an issue with this, I would have heard from him by now.


As I have written previously, a vote for Jerry is not just a protest vote. Unlike Mickey Mouse, Jerry has proven himself to be an exceptionally fine township committee person. Many of us proposing to write in his name intend to do so because of his abilities, not as a sign of opposition to one or more of the other candidates who are running for office.

Like Jeffl, I have seen no indication that Jerry is actively asking persons not to vote for him in the November election. Should he decide to do so, I and others might reconsider our position.


joan_crystal said:
As I have written previously, a vote for Jerry is not just a protest vote. Unlike Mickey Mouse, Jerry has proven himself to be an exceptionally fine township committee person. Many of us proposing to write in his name intend to do so because of his abilities, not as a sign of opposition to one or more of the other candidates who are running for office.
Like Jeffl, I have seen no indication that Jerry is actively asking persons not to vote for him in the November election. Should he decide to do so, I and others might reconsider our position.

I agree that it's not just a protest vote in theory, and it's also a vote for Jerry. But in practical terms, since Jerry isn't actively campaigning, there is no realistic chance he will win. So in that sense, knowing it's not a vote cast with the thought that he will win, I am considering the utility of the vote as a protest.


LOST said:
This will be a low turnout election. The highest office being voted upon is State Assembly. Also on the ballot will be Sheriff and County Clerk. Aside from the fact that hardly anyone cares who the Sheriff or County Clerk is this is an overwhelmingly Democratic District so there will not be much of a fight over the State Assembly positions currently held by Mila Jasey and John McKeon.


Please recall that redistricting brought a number of conservative Morris County towns into our district recently, and District 27 is no longer an "overwhelmingly" Democratic District. At least one of the Republican candidates, Wonkyu "Q" Rim, has been pouring an enormous amount of time, energy, and money into his campaign, and the Democrats are not taking the election for granted. Also note that he is an evangelical, family values, social conservative (though not mentioned in his campaign literature). He was an officer of the NJ Family Policy Council (the state's "family values" Christian coalition), and he lobbied the legislature against marriage equality, other LGBT issues, and a woman's right to choose. He also supports dangerous and discredited gay conversion therapy ("pray away the gay"). He has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

Stealth candidates sneak in during low turnout elections when the electorate is bored and not paying attention. Please do show up and vote for the Democratic Assembly candidates! Or get a vote by mail ballot and vote from the comfort of your home.


ml1 said:

And we're all biased. I haven't come into these discussions in any way presenting myself as unbiased. And (again), my opinion is that some of the people trying to present themselves as unbiased and neutral are working harder to justify ohno60/VK than they are to looking critically at what those groups are doing and saying.
I think to some degree it's a copout to say "both sides do it" or "both sides are alike." Because they're not. Objectively they're not. They're not using the same tactics, organizing the same way, or saying the same kinds of things but just in mirror image. It's easy for one to say one is impartial and above it all. I think it's harder to evaluate everything that's been said and done and come to a conclusion that on balance one group is different than another.
that said, people like me and those who agree with me aren't perfect. We haven't said we are. We've made errors, and some of us have been more emotional and blunt than maybe we should have been. But we've tried to make people aware that a lot of what residents thought they knew about the development was incorrect. And I think we've succeeded in correcting a lot of that incorrect information.

This would probably be better off in a PM, because there are a lot more important matters to discuss in these threads, but since you put it out there:

I, too, have never presented myself as unbiased or neutral. I've never claimed to offer big-picture truths or overall equivalencies, one way or another, in these Post House discussions. One of my biases (that I'm aware of) is a delight in contrarianism, even -- often particularly -- when I am its target. Another, as I've already belabored, is a predilection for ambiguity. Put the two together, and in that spirit my comments and questions are generally intended to encourage know-betters to maybe look at their verities in a different light and see if it has any effect on their thinking. If not, no harm done; they can take it or leave it.

In these Post House threads, the know-betters are predominantly from one side of the debate, which is why a contrarian would tend to address their arguments more often. Also, the shortcomings in the posts by the primary MOL participant or two from the other side, especially since author has been absent, seem to me self-evident and not worth a response. I have to feel like the back-and-forth is worth my time, if only to help me clarify my own opinions. If that's any comfort.


yes. when you call us "know betters," that pretty much gives away your bias. I suppose I'm included in that. But I've tried not to act as though I know better. In fact, I'm on record (several times) on MOL saying that I actually appreciate a lot of what ohno60 accomplished in terms of scaling back the development. I just want people to stop purposely leaving out inconvenient information, and stop purposely making claims that they know are outdated or incomplete. And yes, "purposely" is an interpretation. But when you read on someone's FB page that claims aren't meant to be taken literally, but are meant to "generate discussion" or "get attention," it's not a stretch to say those exaggerations were purposeful.

Do I always live up to my own standards? No. But do any of us always live up to our own standards? But I try, and I can say with clear conscience that my intent going into this debate was to try to correct the information in the public debate that I thought was not correct.

One thing in retrospect is that I would have insisted that our group not call ourselves "Village Facts" and I would have asked Paul not to start a thread called "Facts Matter." The use of the word "facts" clearly a) pissed off several people and convinced them we're a bunch of arrogant *****s and b) held us up to criticism every time we expressed an interpretation (regardless of how logical the interpretation might be).

But overall, I'm glad we entered the debate, because I think that even if some people have decided we're arrogant hypocrites, I think we made people more aware that their claims would be examined. I think our presence in the debate did elevate the factual nature of the information being shared. It was in some ways too late (there are still people criticizing the TC for allowing a five story building to go up ). But I think it was overall a positive contribution.


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