Who Benefits From the Expansion of A.P. Classes?

This article, in today's New York Times Magazine, raises more questions than it answers, which is why I found it worth reading and, perhaps, worth a discussion here. (It includes a passing reference to SOMA.)

Who Benefits From the Expansion of A.P. Classes?

How can kids be expected at that stage of their education to suddenly kick it into high gear and pass a test? Education is learning and being capable of being educated is a learned process. Figuring it out at 14 15 16 17 is possible but boy is it harder.

Pulling the tests for all simply because schools (and parents it seems) have failed to reach students earlier in their career seems foolish as well. Kids should be given a shot if they want to take it, and while I don't make light of the $94, given that in SOMA at the current cost per pupil of around $19000 x 13 years = $240,000 I have a hard time getting too bent about a kid taking 5 tests at around $500, or 0.2% of their educational costs.

Willing to be convinced otherwise.

I do not understand the obsession today with high school kids doing college level work. Success is mastering high school work. When I was in high school there were only a few AP offerings and even most honor students took at most one. We did college work in college. 

We put too much pressure on teens today and it mostly leads to failure and mental health issues. 

ska said:

I do not understand the obsession today with high school kids doing college level work. 

Whether or not A.P. courses are really college level is a question in itself.

Jackson_Fusion said:

How can kids be expected at that stage of their education to suddenly kick it into high gear and pass a test? Education is learning and being capable of being educated is a learned process. Figuring it out at 14 15 16 17 is possible but boy is it harder.

The story asks: Does it matter if they pass? I struggled in high school calculus (not an A.P. course; my high school did not offer A.P. anything in the early '80s). Simply being exposed to the concepts did me good,* however, and when I retook calculus in college I did well.

I'm sure I would have failed the A.P. test. And I'm sure I would have failed the college class without having had the high school exposure.

*The Times article mentions this as a possible benefit, with anecdotal evidence like mine, but also notes a lack of support in the research.

I much prefer teaching for the sake of learning rather than teaching to the test.  Classes at all levels should be rigorous and challenging, taking students from what they presently know to where they are expected to be at the end of the course.  If a high percentage of students are flunking AP exams, it is likely because they lack the prerequisites needed to succeed in the class or lack test taking skills needed to translate what they have learned in the class to what is being asked of them on the test.  Making college level courses available to high school seniors who have already met the requirements for high school graduation makes sense, enrolling high school sophomores who are still mastering the high school level curriculum in the subject area covered by the AP course makes little sense.  If we want to close the achievement gap, we should focus  on teaching skills such as reading, reasoning, critical thinking, study skills, and time management throughout a student's school career.  

If kids are getting stuck in classes they can't pass that's unacceptable. If anything it's taking kids who are open to "learning to learn" and smashing them with failure for their efforts. Better to do well and build a foundation and confidence than be in AP just to say they got into AP.

Of course, getting all kids the foundation in the earlier years would be ideal, rather than just trying to jam it all in and hoping for the best in highschool. 

joan_crystal said:

Making college level courses available to high school seniors who have already met the requirements for high school graduation makes sense, enrolling high school sophomores who are still mastering the high school level curriculum in the subject area covered by the AP course makes little sense.

Not sure this is an issue. The A.P. courses for subjects that have non-A.P. counterparts -- physics, chemistry, biology, Spanish -- aren't enrolling sophomores who haven't already passed those counterparts. And it'd be kind of a Catch 22 to require mastery as a prerequisite for some other A.P. courses, like statistics, U.S. history, European history, psychology and English literature, when the students really haven't had a high school curriculum in those subjects. 

Jackson_Fusion said:

If kids are getting stuck in classes they can't pass that's unacceptable. If anything it's taking kids who are open to "learning to learn" and smashing them with failure for their efforts. Better to do well and build a foundation and confidence than be in AP just to say they got into AP.

FWIW, I never felt smashed with failure while grasping for straight C's in high school calculus. Always felt I was getting something out of it.

Granted things may have changed since I was in high school.  Back then science was taught in a single progression: general science (9th grade), biology (10th grade), chemistry (11th grade), physics (12th grade); with a similar progression for mathematics, history, and English.  Science courses I took in undergraduate and graduate school were less compartmentalized with knowledge of mathematics, biology, chemistry, and physics required for even entry level courses.  With subjects such as English literature and history, it was more a question of depth of study. Here you needed a foundation in the subject matter since emphasis on the college level was placed on research and analysis, with the assumption students already knew the basics prior to enrolling. Statistics wasn't really taught at my high school but could have been introduced in most subject areas where research and analysis were key to understanding the subject matter beyond rote memorization. The first dedicated statistics course I took was in graduate school.  Psychology, sociology, and philosophy weren't offered either but could have been introduced as high school level electives without jumping to a college-level AP course.

Once again, the tremendous disparity in teaching skills will always factor into whether a student passes or fails the AP exams in any given area. I agree that early and quality preparation is also essential. "Qualifying" to take the course and exam begins long before high school. 

I suppose it depends on your high school but 40 years ago, I was in an honor's program in Brooklyn high school, Midwood, and many students in the program, and to a less extent outside of it, took one or more of the eight AP courses offered.  The good news then, which seems to be rarely true now, is that some kid0s got up to a year of college credit.  I had a friend who graduated from Brandeis in three years just using AP credits for much of his first year's requirements.  Then it switched to you could get credit but just had to take more courses.

ska said:

I do not understand the obsession today with high school kids doing college level work. Success is mastering high school work. When I was in high school there were only a few AP offerings and even most honor students took at most one. We did college work in college. 

We put too much pressure on teens today and it mostly leads to failure and mental health issue

annielou said:

Once again, the tremendous disparity in teaching skills will always factor into whether a student passes or fails the AP exams in any given area. I agree that early and quality preparation is also essential. "Qualifying" to take the course and exam begins long before high school. 

Yes, the teacher is certainly a factor, but it's just one factor.  To think otherwise is over-simplistic. I teach an AP course in a very wealthy district west of M/SO.  Over half of my students score a 5 alone.  Do I put in a lot of hard work into my classes?  Absolutely! However, I would be the first to admit that a part of why they do so well is because of their socioeconomic status.  My students have access to all sorts of resources from a very young age.  I know that if I taught in a low income district, my scores would probably decrease.  

On a different note, one of the reasons why AP classes have expanded so much in my district is because the parents and students feel like they have to take them in order to compete for college acceptances.  The parents in my district don't like to see grades below an A or maybe a B even when their child produces work that is, frankly, not at all A or B worthy.  Unfortunately it makes grade inflation rampant.  

Interesting! How objective/subjective is the scoring process do u think?

Perseverance said:

On a different note, one of the reasons why AP classes have expanded so much in my district is because the parents and students feel like they have to take them in order to compete for college acceptances.  The parents in my district don't like to see grades below an A or maybe a B even when their child produces work that is, frankly, not at all A or B worthy.  Unfortunately it makes grade inflation rampant. 

I wonder how true this is -- not what parents and students feel, but what competitive colleges really care about these days. Without going into too much detail, I'd wager that essays have become more important. A strong A.P. record and G.P.A. may not go that far.

annielou said:

Interesting! How objective/subjective is the scoring process do u think?

I would think the scoring process is very objective.  The question you want to ask is, How objective are the test questions and key answers? Cultural bias, and regional variations in vocabulary, grammatical structure used in framing the questions, can all have an impact on student success on these tests.  

Top Colleges weight your GPA based on AP and honors classes, so the more AP's you take, if you get a B or above you are at an advantage.  They also look at your high school profile to see how many AP classes are offered, what percentage of students take them, and how many of those students score 4's and 5's.  So they know who is challenging themselves and who is coasting by getting A's in non-honors classes.

Essays remain important, but I think more as a gauge to gather insight into what would make a student a good fit for the school.  Essays can also be a minefield if a student is working with an application guru, because schools start to see patterns which indicate that they have been heavily coached in their essays and applications, and that counts against them.  One retired admissions officer told us that an adult writes way differently than an 18 year old and they can spot the kids who had adults virtually write their essay.

SAT scores are increasingly less important because most top schools assume the students have been coached until they get a certain score.  With super scoring, kids can take the test multiple times, get their actual SAT back and have a tutor teach them how to answer the questions they missed.

CHS is interesting in that they seem to encourage almost all kids to take AP classes.  In most other districts you have to place into AP, which probably results in more A's as grades in other places, and more C's in schools like CHS.  I don't know if this has an effect on CHS profile.  Also, in most other districts, you can still take Honors vs AP.  We only did 1 year there, but at the time it seemed that the plan was to do away with the honors level and only offer AP or regular, even at the 10th grade.

College admission, in general seems way more of a crap shoot now, than when we went.  Kids apply to 20 schools,start working on their resumes in 9th grade, and plan their high school experience around getting into their dream college.

DaveSchmidt said:

Perseverance said:

On a different note, one of the reasons why AP classes have expanded so much in my district is because the parents and students feel like they have to take them in order to compete for college acceptances.  The parents in my district don't like to see grades below an A or maybe a B even when their child produces work that is, frankly, not at all A or B worthy.  Unfortunately it makes grade inflation rampant. 

I wonder how true this is -- not what parents and students feel, but what competitive colleges really care about these days. Without going into too much detail, I'd wager that essays have become more important. A strong A.P. record and G.P.A. may not go that far.

campbell29 said:

Also, in most other districts, you can still take Honors vs AP.  We only did 1 year there, but at the time it seemed that the plan was to do away with the honors level and only offer AP or regular, even at the 10th grade.

If this was the plan, it hasn't been put into effect. CHS still offers Honors separately from A.P.

And since physics is the 10th-grade science at CHS, and there is a calculus prerequisite for the A.P. Physics C offered there, it would be nigh impossible, for example, to replace Honors Physics with A.P. Physics.

DaveSchmidt said:

ska said:

I do not understand the obsession today with high school kids doing college level work. 

Whether or not A.P. courses are really college level is a question in itself.

I wish they'd teach high school kids real life lessons on how to adult. Balancing a checkbook, paying bills, budgeting, completing a tax return, filling out a W-4, filing an insurance claim, changing a flat tire, checking for oil in the car, the advantages and pitfalls of credit cards, time management, working part time while killing it in college courses, the value of knowing time is money, etc etc.  Any smart kid can pass an AP class in a controlled environment, where parents and teachers are heavily involved top to bottom. Can they adult the basics without consulting with mom and dad? These are things I wish I'd learned when I started college in 1999. All AP classes would have down for me is reduce my required credits. 

DaveSchmidt said:

And since physics is the 10th-grade science at CHS, and there is a calculus prerequisite for the A.P. Physics C offered there, it would be nigh impossible, for example, to replace Honors Physics with A.P. Physics.

I believe that AP Physics is offered as a second physics course (mainly or only to Seniors) at CHS. Students in the accelerated math track take calculus Junior year, so would have that pre-req.  Similar with AP Bio, but without the math pre-req, I think.  Unless my memory is off or something has changed very recently, the only AP science course that replaces the 'regular' version at CHS is Chemistry.

A personal aside, if I may: The assumption that parents of A.P. students, or of students applying to competitive colleges, are heavily involved in their schoolwork or applications may be overstated.

sac said: 

I believe that AP Physics is offered as a second physics course (mainly or only to Seniors) at CHS. Students in the accelerated math track take calculus Junior year, so would have that pre-req.  Similar with AP Bio, but without the math pre-req, I think.  Unless my memory is off or something has changed very recently, the only AP science course that replaces the 'regular' version at CHS is Chemistry.

Yes, chemistry is a course at CHS that could feasibly drop Honors sections in favor of A.P. Also Spanish. Not happening, though, as far as I know.

(And to clarify, the calculus prerequisite for A.P. Physics allows for students to be taking calculus concurrently as a senior.)

DaveSchmidt said:

A personal aside, if I may: The assumption that parents of A.P. students, or of students applying to competitive colleges, are heavily involved in their schoolwork or applications may be overstated.

It certainly wasn't the case in my house.

sac said:

DaveSchmidt said:

A personal aside, if I may: The assumption that parents of A.P. students, or of students applying to competitive colleges, are heavily involved in their schoolwork or applications may be overstated.

It certainly wasn't the case in my house.

Someone, an AP teacher mentioned upthread that parents do not want to see anything other than A's and B's in AP classes, so much so that grading inflation is rampant. That seems like heavy involvement to me, but I have no skin in the game, I have no soon to be high schooler, maybe I'm out of the loop. When I was facing a D in College Calculus, it was between me, my Professor and my novice negotiation skills, or lack thereof. I'm of the opinion college classes should be taken in college. 

Calculus courses have been taught in high schools for a very long time.  I took calculus in high school over 40 years ago and it wasn't new then. (They didn't call it an AP course, but I and a number of my classmates made 5s on the BC calculus exam.) When I went to an elite college (which gave me the credit and allowed me to enroll in the next level math class), I had occasion to help a lot of my fellow freshmen with their calculus homework.  From that experience I can say that my high school course was MORE thorough and effective than the college course I placed out of and received credit for. My observation of the CHS AP Calculus BC course was that it was similar or MORE rigorous than the one I took.  And my child did all her own advocating (if/when needed) with her teachers at CHS.

joan_crystal said:

I much prefer teaching for the sake of learning rather than teaching to the test.  

This is EXACTLY why Scarsdale and other high-performing districts stopped offering AP classes. AP is too constraining. The teacher can't let the discussion drift. 

I said to my HS-age child, "This is a great year to be taking GoPo* " Child replies: "It doesn't make a difference. We can't discuss current events. We have to stick to the curriculum because there's an AP exam in May!"

*GoPo = U.S. Government and Politics

joan_crystal said:

annielou said:

Interesting! How objective/subjective is the scoring process do u think?

I would think the scoring process is very objective.  The question you want to ask is, How objective are the test questions and key answers? Cultural bias, and regional variations in vocabulary, grammatical structure used in framing the questions, can all have an impact on student success on these tests.  

No, Joan. You're thinking of the SAT and other standardized tests. AP exams are based on a set curriculum taught from Sept-May (Aug-May for most of the country.)  

shoshannah said:

joan_crystal said:

annielou said:

Interesting! How objective/subjective is the scoring process do u think?

I would think the scoring process is very objective.  The question you want to ask is, How objective are the test questions and key answers? Cultural bias, and regional variations in vocabulary, grammatical structure used in framing the questions, can all have an impact on student success on these tests.  

No, Joan. You're thinking of the SAT and other standardized tests. AP exams are based on a set curriculum taught from Sept-May (Aug-May for most of the country.)  

My point is that the way in which the examination questions are framed and the material from the course that is selected to be covered by the examination can unintentionally carry with them biases that favor some students over others, based on differences in various student's use of language and prior experience.  This is true of any written examination.

ElizMcCord said:
I wish they'd teach high school kids real life lessons on how to adult. Balancing a checkbook, paying bills, budgeting, completing a tax return, filling out a W-4, filing an insurance claim, changing a flat tire, checking for oil in the car, the advantages and pitfalls of credit cards, time management, working part time while killing it in college courses, the value of knowing time is money, etc etc.  Any smart kid can pass an AP class in a controlled environment, where parents and teachers are heavily involved top to bottom. Can they adult the basics without consulting with mom and dad? These are things I wish I'd learned when I started college in 1999. All AP classes would have down for me is reduce my required credits. 

I think that everything you are citing in the first half of your statement are items that we as parents should teach.  If schools get bogged down trying to replace parents they will be wasting time.