When is 20% > 80%?

spontaneous said:
I did read the thread. I read the multiple references to Jejovah's Witnesses being offended by Halloween and the school in question having a large number of families who follow that religion. This non-religiousevent is being dropped to make them comfortable. That isn't right.

Maybe you can re-ead This isn't about Jehovah's Witnesses regardless of the 1-2 posts that referenced them.

As several have mentioned, there are numerous fundamentalist religious groups that object to Halloween. Regardless, many more don't participate for non religious reasons. And moreover, the people that voted for this did it for inclusive (non-religious) reasons.

shanabasha said:

Woot said:

shanabasha said:
Regardless of whether the choice was right or wrong, just want to make clear that the Principal and PTA leadership made the choice, not the SB community. There was no open discussion that included the SB community.

As evidenced by this board you would not reach consensus. Plus, this topic is not about learning and doesn't warrant a large forum. The Principal and PTA made a decision after careful consideration.

I agree that you would not reach a consensus. Just pointing out that it's not like the SB community got together about this (not that it necessarily should have) and had a majority consensus.

A majority is not a consensus.

spontaneous said:

ParticleMan said:
That's not why it's being dropped.


That this thread is garnering such passionate responses is astounding to me.

Then why is it being dropped. Don't say because 20% of the school didn't attend. WHY didn't they attend. The 80% who did attend are now being asked to miss out on a fun event (God forbid we allow kids to have any fun events in school unless it is proven to increase test scores) to accommodate 20% who didn't want to attend, or whose parent's didn't want them to attend.

You're saying 20% of the school is Jehovah's Witnesses?

I dont know what accomodation you think is being made. It doesn't seem like people requested that the principal take this action.

Either way, it Halloween in school. IMHO, it doesn't belong there anyway.

sprout said:

annielou said:
Consideration of what exactly? I'd like to hear one cogent argument about why Halloween celebrations constitute devil worship. All holidays with ancient Christian or pagan roots have Eves: Christmas Eve, New Years Eve, and the newly minted high school reunion drinking celebration called Thanksgiving Eve. The point is that the Eves have all become celebratory over the centuries and All Hallows' Eve is just one of those. If a few families don't view a particular holiday as secular, then fine, don't participate. But I want to hear someone actually articulate the devil/occult theory and see how many liberal MOL posters will give a thumbs up

From a quick google:
Celebrations like Halloween are in conflict with Bible teachings. The Bible warns: “There must never be anyone among you who . . . practices divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:10, 11, The Jerusalem Bible; see alsoLeviticus 19:31; Galatians 5:19-21.
There's more... but you can find it yourself if you are, in fact, actually interested.

I highly doubt that a child in a Halloween costume is practicing divination, is a soothsayer, etc. In fact, since you are apparently a googling expert, you will find that celebrations using masks and costumes are present in almost every world culture. Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night. Lastly, I will say that actually believing in soothsayers and ghosts to begin with belongs in the same part of the forest as the 40 virgins and the 5,000 year old planet earth

No one is canceling Halloween.

ParticleMan said:
No one is canceling Halloween.

Check the thread title. Just sayin..

annielou said:

ParticleMan said:
No one is canceling Halloween.

Check the thread title. Just sayin..

You are free to celebrate Halloween. No one has taken the holiday from you or your children. Everything will be OK.

annielou said:

sprout said:

annielou said:
Consideration of what exactly? I'd like to hear one cogent argument about why Halloween celebrations constitute devil worship. All holidays with ancient Christian or pagan roots have Eves: Christmas Eve, New Years Eve, and the newly minted high school reunion drinking celebration called Thanksgiving Eve. The point is that the Eves have all become celebratory over the centuries and All Hallows' Eve is just one of those. If a few families don't view a particular holiday as secular, then fine, don't participate. But I want to hear someone actually articulate the devil/occult theory and see how many liberal MOL posters will give a thumbs up

From a quick google:
Celebrations like Halloween are in conflict with Bible teachings. The Bible warns: “There must never be anyone among you who . . . practices divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:10, 11, The Jerusalem Bible; see alsoLeviticus 19:31; Galatians 5:19-21.
There's more... but you can find it yourself if you are, in fact, actually interested.

I highly doubt that a child in a Halloween costume is practicing divination, is a soothsayer, etc. In fact, since you are apparently a googling expert, you will find that celebrations using masks and costumes are present in almost every world culture. Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night. Lastly, I will say that actually believing in soothsayers and ghosts to begin with belongs in the same part of the forest as the 40 virgins and the 5,000 year old planet earth

I am currently across the street from a store called "Spirit Halloween", and passed a rather elaborate cemetery/living dead display. It's not a big stretch to see how it can be seen as related to the occult.

In any case, I'm the farthest thing from a JW, but I'm sure I could introduce you to some very friendly ones who would be more than happy to discuss this with you.

sprout said:

annielou said:

sprout said:

annielou said:
Consideration of what exactly? I'd like to hear one cogent argument about why Halloween celebrations constitute devil worship. All holidays with ancient Christian or pagan roots have Eves: Christmas Eve, New Years Eve, and the newly minted high school reunion drinking celebration called Thanksgiving Eve. The point is that the Eves have all become celebratory over the centuries and All Hallows' Eve is just one of those. If a few families don't view a particular holiday as secular, then fine, don't participate. But I want to hear someone actually articulate the devil/occult theory and see how many liberal MOL posters will give a thumbs up

From a quick google:
Celebrations like Halloween are in conflict with Bible teachings. The Bible warns: “There must never be anyone among you who . . . practices divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:10, 11, The Jerusalem Bible; see alsoLeviticus 19:31; Galatians 5:19-21.
There's more... but you can find it yourself if you are, in fact, actually interested.

I highly doubt that a child in a Halloween costume is practicing divination, is a soothsayer, etc. In fact, since you are apparently a googling expert, you will find that celebrations using masks and costumes are present in almost every world culture. Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night. Lastly, I will say that actually believing in soothsayers and ghosts to begin with belongs in the same part of the forest as the 40 virgins and the 5,000 year old planet earth

I am currently across the street from a store called "Spirit Halloween", and passed a rather elaborate cemetery/living dead display. It's not a big stretch to see how it can be seen as related to the occult.
In any case, I'm the farthest thing from a JW, but I'm sure I could introduce you to some very friendly ones who would be more than happy to discuss this with you.

The discussion would have to presume that I think the occult is real.

annielou said:

Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night.

Fun apparently has no place in school. Look at the bright side, this now frees up more time for test prep.

Woot said:

As several have mentioned, there are numerous fundamentalist religious groups that object to Halloween. Regardless, many more don't participate for non religious reasons. And moreover, the people that voted for this did it for inclusive (non-religious) reasons.

And they have every right to not participate. But asking the other children to not participate because fundamentalists are against it won't promote inclusiveness, rather it will promote resentment. Four out of five students participated. But now Sally, Joe, Billy, and Susan now can't participate in a school parade because Steven's family won't let him. Yeah, they're all gonna be happy with Steven.

annielou said:

sprout said:
I am currently across the street from a store called "Spirit Halloween", and passed a rather elaborate cemetery/living dead display. It's not a big stretch to see how it can be seen as related to the occult.
In any case, I'm the farthest thing from a JW, but I'm sure I could introduce you to some very friendly ones who would be more than happy to discuss this with you.

The discussion would have to presume that I think the occult is real.

Only if you presume that your beliefs are what everyone else believes.

I'm sorry but I can't accept that ghosts, the devil, and the occult, posed as actual entities have a place in rational 21st century conversation. Just call it a quirk of mine.

I suspect that (like most of these issues) it is much more important to the parents than to the kids and most kids wouldn't even know that they are missing anything except for their parents making a big issue of it. It isn't like they won't have plenty of opportunity for Halloween celebrations after school on Friday and for much of the day on Saturday.

When my kids moved on to middle school from elementary school, they were told "no costumes" and that was that. They were fine and still had lots of Halloween fun after school and into the evening.

And, btw, I haven't heard any great uproar about the lack of Halloween parades at the middle schools.

annielou said:
I'm sorry but I can't accept that ghosts, the devil, and the occult, posed as actual entities have a place in rational 21st century conversation. Just call it a quirk of mine.

It sounds like something you should explain to the JW's so that their children can be free to engage in Halloween activities.

As a 40 something, I love Halloween and enjoy dressing up for an annual party we attend. As a parent, I always enjoyed being creative with my kids to try an come up with unique costumes. That said, in elementary school I remember the school Halloween parade as being fairly stressful. Kids were not allowed to wear costumes to school and would have to get dressed after lunch. A few volunteers may have been permitted to help the teacher. Then after all the excitement/stress/anxiety, the kids walk around the building, some love it, some hate it. (As a parent it was always fun to watch.)

But reading mamabears explanation, who could possibly disagree with this decision? If that many children need alternate accommodations for the afternoon, I could see it being a challenge for the school. So, in lieu of a Halloween parade that excludes over 100 students for various reasons, they're holding an inclusive harvest festival. Why is this an issue? Halloween is the following day! Enjoy!

It's kind of like Valentine's Day! I've always enjoyed making cards with my kids, but suddenly everyone started including a treat with their store bought cards. Like anyone needs an extra lollipop or pack of smarties! Ugh!

There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

annielou said:
There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

I don't think separation of church and state applies here. But it would be interesting to see how you think it does.

Harvest festivals have roots in pagan religious rites. It would be inconsistent to allow that and disallow Halloween.

sprout said:

annielou said:
There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

I don't think separation of church and state applies here. But it would be interesting to see how you think it does.

Separation of church and state, as I understand it, means that a specific religious belief cannot assert its influence on governmental entities. The school in question is public. Halloween, as it is celebrated in 21st century America, is not a form of worship of anything. However it has been labeled as such by the 20% whose belief system says that it is. That is religion imposing itself on a governmental entity

spontaneous said:

annielou said:

Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night.

Fun apparently has no place in school. Look at the bright side, this now frees up more time for test prep.

Woot said:

As several have mentioned, there are numerous fundamentalist religious groups that object to Halloween. Regardless, many more don't participate for non religious reasons. And moreover, the people that voted for this did it for inclusive (non-religious) reasons.

And they have every right to not participate. But asking the other children to not participate because fundamentalists are against it won't promote inclusiveness, rather it will promote resentment. Four out of five students participated. But now Sally, Joe, Billy, and Susan now can't participate in a school parade because Steven's family won't let him. Yeah, they're all gonna be happy with Steven.

Please read the thread. It is not because of Steven. It is because the Principal (along with Sally and Joes Parents who sit on the PTA) agreed that they should find an activity for all 5.

You must be Susan's parent. They complain a lot but are not as active on the PTA.

annielou said:

sprout said:

annielou said:
There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

I don't think separation of church and state applies here. But it would be interesting to see how you think it does.

Separation of church and state, as I understand it, means that a specific religious belief cannot assert its influence on governmental entities. The school in question is public. Halloween, as it is celebrated in 21st century America, is not a form of worship of anything. However it has been labeled as such by the 20% whose belief system says that it is. That is religion imposing itself on a governmental entity

Then you do not understand the issue. It is not a Religious issue.

dave said:
Harvest festivals have roots in pagan religious rites. It would be inconsistent to allow that and disallow Halloween.

Of course it would. But we're not that deep

sprout said:

annielou said:
I'm sorry but I can't accept that ghosts, the devil, and the occult, posed as actual entities have a place in rational 21st century conversation. Just call it a quirk of mine.

It sounds like something you should explain to the JW's so that their children can be free to engage in Halloween activities.

Regarding those that have not actively participated in Halloween in the past, this is not just JWs. It is also fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Jews, people who don't celebrate this practice for whatever reason, children whose parents can't afford costumes, children who along with their parents are too lazy to create a costume....

As others mentioned, I find it shocking how upset parents find this decision.

You left out a group.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-29808990

dave said:
You left out a group.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-29808990

Probably several

When one in five members of the student body opt out of an activity that is intended to be for all of the students in the school, regardless of the reasoning behind such self-exclusion, it is time to think of replacing that activity with something all of the children can participate in comfortably. In that situation, what is wrong with the school administration and PTA leadership finding that a school-wide activity is not working well and deciding to replace it with one that has a better chance of being a success?

This hype over the halloween parade is so strange to me. Tell me one other 'holiday' that is celebrated school wide during school hours?

I can't think of one. We respect our teachers to make the decision over holidays in their classroom and each teacher does something different. Why can't we respect the decision of the principle. The principle is responsible for the children during the 6.5 hours they are in school. It's their decision how they use that time.

On a side note, I don't remember the schools this upset over canceling the halloween parade when hurricane Sandy came to town. My kids didn't even notice the halloween parade was cancelled, they still got to go trick or treating and that was all that mattered to them = Candy.

Whats kinda great about the age we live in is that you can do ANYTHING and people will be outraged. All you have to do is hang in there until the next thing that outrages everyone comes upand it'll be forgotten

Hang in there, Principal.

spontaneous, I wish you could spend some time in my second grader's class room at Seth Boyden and tell me that they don't have fun. Between pajama days, popcorn parties, dance parties, birthday celebrations, writer celebrations, plays, etc., I think they are doing okay. In fact I would be willing to bet that on any given Friday afternoon the WHOLE class has more fun than, from my experience, what was the afternoon of the halloween parade.

I can tell you that my kids had exactly no reaction when I told them that the school parade was canceled. None. They have watched classmates being led out, some in tears, in prior years. They do not resent them. Thankfully they are being taught kindness and acceptance. They know that the Maplewood parade is Friday afternoon, they know they will go trick-or-treating on Saturday. They aren't really missing anything at all.

I want to extend again mamabear's invitation to our Harvest Festival today from 12-4. Come see what SB is really all about.

spontaneous said:

annielou said:

Additionally, while some adults think it's all about the candy, Halloween (pretending) actually has intrinsic value in the emotional world of children. There are too many examples to list as to why children love Halloween for the simple idea of being a superhero or princess or monster for one night.

Fun apparently has no place in school. Look at the bright side, this now frees up more time for test prep.