What will it take to make fixing NJ Transit a priority?

PVW

I feel like the evening commute's been getting increasingly worse, and I don't see much hope for change any time soon. The feds are lukewarm supporters of mass transit at the best of times, and of course we can forget about any meaningful support with this administration (why would Trump help out what he probably sees as a bunch of Democrats?). The inter-state nature of the transit lines means there's always someone else to blame -- NJ can blame NY, NY can blame NJ, and both can blame Amtrak. I feel like it'll take some kind of whole system collapse where not addressing the issue will cause significant economic and electoral pain before any real urgency will be felt.


ctrzaska

That last sentence pretty much sums up how I feel about it. 


yahooyahoo

"I feel like it'll take some kind of whole system collapse where not addressing the issue will cause significant economic and electoral pain before any real urgency will be felt."


This is your answer.  It will not be fixed until it is too late.


Robert_Casotto

I’d be willing to settle for them clearing the bums from Penn Station.


basil

The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?


PVW
basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate.

 And even then, don't get your hopes up. There's a deep-seated anti-urban animus in our political culture.


Smedley

I think fixing NJ Transit is a priority and has been since Murphy took office, however NJ Transit is a behemoth and suffered many years of neglect, so real change will take time. 

I ride the trains every day. My experience has been that things are moving in the right direction, if very slowly. The last week or two has been really poor which shows they still have a lot of work to do. But I'm thinking (or at least hoping) that this recent crapshow is attributable to one-off stuff, like the labor dispute that supposedly has some NJTransit employees refusing to work overtime, and being in the middle of peak vacation season when NJT is still in the process of adding engineers. I'm really hoping these past couple weeks aren't going to be the new normal again.   


proeasdf
basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?

 Port Authority ("PA") is an institution that appears to be more concerned about the political.  And, less concerned about accomplishments and its mission.  My understanding is: the PA was originally tasked with solving the problem of getting freight railroad cars from Jersey to Brooklyn WITHOUT:  i.) sending the railroad cars up to Albany to cross the Hudson River; or ii.) using barges to transport railroad across New York Harbor from Brooklyn to Jersey (and vice-versa).  See:  https://untappedcities.com/2017/02/02/behind-the-scenes-at-the-floating-freight-rail-line-that-crosses-the-hudson-river-in-nyc/


Improving NJ mass transit in an appreciable way is a big tax loser for the NYS fisc.  The more NJ mass transit is improved, the more likely that leading Manhattan companies will shift all, or part, of their work-force to generally lower cost NJ.  When companies move personnel to NJ from NYS, this generally reduces NYS income tax revenue (while NJ generally gains income tax revenue).

Income tax on wages is generally assessed based on where the work is performed.  Thus, New Jerseyans earning wages in Manhattan are first assessed NYS income tax and then taxed on the same income in NJ (but receiving a NJ tax credit for taxes paid to NYS).  Thus, NJ receives little or no income tax arising from New Jerseyans' work in NYS.  This sourcing rule on income provides a powerful incentive for NYS to be uncooperative (perhaps obstructive) with regards to NJ mass transit.  Clearly, if we could get federal help it is much more likely that additional capacity (namely, a new tunnel) could be added, and thus reliability.  IMHO, any congestive pricing plan should be shifted to the PA and with these newly found funds for the PA (from congestive pricing), then these funds could  be used for  NJ mass transit improvements.


DaveSchmidt
Smedley said:

I ride the trains every day. My experience has been that things are moving in the right direction, if very slowly. 

Mine, too, especially inbound approaching Secaucus.


joan_crystal
basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?

 Port Authority is already raising tolls substantially to cover maintenance on existing projects.  I don't see money coming from that source for the needed tunnel, portal bridge raising/replacement, or other projects that would be needed for the trains to run on schedule.



basil
joan_crystal said:


basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?
 Port Authority is already raising tolls substantially to cover maintenance on existing projects.  I don't see money coming from that source for the needed tunnel, portal bridge raising/replacement, or other projects that would be needed for the trains to run on schedule.


Ok, but my thinking is that since this should really be Fed sponsored, and since the Fed is not only refusing to help us, they are even robbing us of our property tax deductions (on top of the fact that we are already net payers to sponsor the red states), why can't we figure out a way to take the money from them. If not through higher tolls for out-of-towners, maybe through some other mechanism.

I don't really have a problem sponsoring these red states if they need it, but now they turn around and poke a finger in our eyes, that is a bridge too far for me.


Red_Barchetta
proeasdf said:
 Port Authority ("PA") is an institution that appears to be more concerned about the political.  And, less concerned about accomplishments and its mission.  My understanding is: the PA was originally tasked with solving the problem of getting freight railroad cars from Jersey to Brooklyn WITHOUT:  i.) sending the railroad cars up to Albany to cross the Hudson River; or ii.) using barges to transport railroad across New York Harbor from Brooklyn to Jersey (and vice-versa).  See:  https://untappedcities.com/2017/02/02/behind-the-scenes-at-the-floating-freight-rail-line-that-crosses-the-hudson-river-in-nyc/


Improving NJ mass transit in an appreciable way is a big tax loser for the NYS fisc.  The more NJ mass transit is improved, the more likely that leading Manhattan companies will shift all, or part, of their work-force to generally lower cost NJ.  When companies move personnel to NJ from NYS, this generally reduces NYS income tax revenue (while NJ generally gains income tax revenue).

I don’t understand this.   If the transit systems were more reliable I’d think that ‘leading Manhattan companies’ would stay where they are since their employees have more dependable methods to get to work.  NY may lose residents to NJ, but that’s not what you appear to be talking about.  


basil
proeasdf said:


basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?
 Port Authority ("PA") is an institution that appears to be more concerned about the political.  And, less concerned about accomplishments and its mission.  My understanding is: the PA was originally tasked with solving the problem of getting freight railroad cars from Jersey to Brooklyn WITHOUT:  i.) sending the railroad cars up to Albany to cross the Hudson River; or ii.) using barges to transport railroad across New York Harbor from Brooklyn to Jersey (and vice-versa).  See:  https://untappedcities.com/2017/02/02/behind-the-scenes-at-the-floating-freight-rail-line-that-crosses-the-hudson-river-in-nyc/


Improving NJ mass transit in an appreciable way is a big tax loser for the NYS fisc.  The more NJ mass transit is improved, the more likely that leading Manhattan companies will shift all, or part, of their work-force to generally lower cost NJ.  When companies move personnel to NJ from NYS, this generally reduces NYS income tax revenue (while NJ generally gains income tax revenue).
Income tax on wages is generally assessed based on where the work is performed.  Thus, New Jerseyans earning wages in Manhattan are first assessed NYS income tax and then taxed on the same income in NJ (but receiving a NJ tax credit for taxes paid to NYS).  Thus, NJ receives little or no income tax arising from New Jerseyans' work in NYS.  This sourcing rule on income provides a powerful incentive for NYS to be uncooperative (perhaps obstructive) with regards to NJ mass transit.  Clearly, if we could get federal help it is much more likely that additional capacity (namely, a new tunnel) could be added, and thus reliability.  IMHO, any congestive pricing plan should be shifted to the PA and with these newly found funds for the PA (from congestive pricing), then these funds could  be used for  NJ mass transit improvements.

That doesn't sound right. If you had better infrastructure and public transport around New York, there would be a bigger pool of talent for Manhattan-based businesses, which would lure more businesses to NY.


Runner_Guy
basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?

 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.

https://www.njspotlight.com/stories/17/08/03/with-a-new-jersey-e-zpass-it-s-e-z-to-pay-higher-tolls-in-new-york-city/

New Jersey, by contrast, charges all drivers the same amount on Delaware River bridges (which it co-controls w/ DE and PA) and the Garden State Parkway.

Non-New Jerseyans pay more for the New Jersey Turnpike, but a non-NJ driver going the length of the Turnpike would only pay an additional $3.40, so NJ's greed doesn't equal New York's.




proeasdf
basil said:


proeasdf said:

basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?
 Port Authority ("PA") is an institution that appears to be more concerned about the political.  And, less concerned about accomplishments and its mission.  My understanding is: the PA was originally tasked with solving the problem of getting freight railroad cars from Jersey to Brooklyn WITHOUT:  i.) sending the railroad cars up to Albany to cross the Hudson River; or ii.) using barges to transport railroad across New York Harbor from Brooklyn to Jersey (and vice-versa).  See:  https://untappedcities.com/2017/02/02/behind-the-scenes-at-the-floating-freight-rail-line-that-crosses-the-hudson-river-in-nyc/


Improving NJ mass transit in an appreciable way is a big tax loser for the NYS fisc.  The more NJ mass transit is improved, the more likely that leading Manhattan companies will shift all, or part, of their work-force to generally lower cost NJ.  When companies move personnel to NJ from NYS, this generally reduces NYS income tax revenue (while NJ generally gains income tax revenue).
Income tax on wages is generally assessed based on where the work is performed.  Thus, New Jerseyans earning wages in Manhattan are first assessed NYS income tax and then taxed on the same income in NJ (but receiving a NJ tax credit for taxes paid to NYS).  Thus, NJ receives little or no income tax arising from New Jerseyans' work in NYS.  This sourcing rule on income provides a powerful incentive for NYS to be uncooperative (perhaps obstructive) with regards to NJ mass transit.  Clearly, if we could get federal help it is much more likely that additional capacity (namely, a new tunnel) could be added, and thus reliability.  IMHO, any congestive pricing plan should be shifted to the PA and with these newly found funds for the PA (from congestive pricing), then these funds could  be used for  NJ mass transit improvements.
Click to Read More
proeasdf said:

basil said:
The Feds are not going to help us out until we put sanity back in the WH and Senate. In fact they only rob us (SALT). Can't we finance a new tunnel & stuff between NY and NJ? And then we use tolls to finance, but we configure higher tolls for anyone outside of NY / NJ (maybe by giving locals a discount). Why wouldn't that work?
 Port Authority ("PA") is an institution that appears to be more concerned about the political.  And, less concerned about accomplishments and its mission.  My understanding is: the PA was originally tasked with solving the problem of getting freight railroad cars from Jersey to Brooklyn WITHOUT:  i.) sending the railroad cars up to Albany to cross the Hudson River; or ii.) using barges to transport railroad across New York Harbor from Brooklyn to Jersey (and vice-versa).  See:  https://untappedcities.com/2017/02/02/behind-the-scenes-at-the-floating-freight-rail-line-that-crosses-the-hudson-river-in-nyc/


Improving NJ mass transit in an appreciable way is a big tax loser for the NYS fisc.  The more NJ mass transit is improved, the more likely that leading Manhattan companies will shift all, or part, of their work-force to generally lower cost NJ.  When companies move personnel to NJ from NYS, this generally reduces NYS income tax revenue (while NJ generally gains income tax revenue).
Income tax on wages is generally assessed based on where the work is performed.  Thus, New Jerseyans earning wages in Manhattan are first assessed NYS income tax and then taxed on the same income in NJ (but receiving a NJ tax credit for taxes paid to NYS).  Thus, NJ receives little or no income tax arising from New Jerseyans' work in NYS.  This sourcing rule on income provides a powerful incentive for NYS to be uncooperative (perhaps obstructive) with regards to NJ mass transit.  Clearly, if we could get federal help it is much more likely that additional capacity (namely, a new tunnel) could be added, and thus reliability.  IMHO, any congestive pricing plan should be shifted to the PA and with these newly found funds for the PA (from congestive pricing), then these funds could  be used for  NJ mass transit improvements.
That doesn't sound right. If you had better infrastructure and public transport around New York, there would be a bigger pool of talent for Manhattan-based businesses, which would lure more businesses to NY.

 Explain why we have the following (for starters):

1.  No no. 7 subway extension to NJ;

2.  No integration of the PATH into the NYC MTA; and

3.  East river bridges are WITHOUT TOLLS.


PA mission is as follows: [T]he Port Authority must recommit itself to its core mission of facilitating transit through the region for the millions of commuters, visitors, and cargo carriers who rely on its transportation infrastructure, ensuring that these facilities are worthy of the people and businesses they serve. To fulfill this mandate, the Authority must avail itself of the most advanced engineering, financial and managerial approaches available, from innovative public-private partnerships to state-of-the-art financing techniques, while never losing sight of it s daily obligation to keep people and goods moving safely and dependably through the region. 


See:  http://www.panynj.gov/pdf/SpecialPanelReporttotheGovernors.pdf


PS The higher the income of a New Yorker (defined here as a person living in one of five boroughs) is, the more likely that the New Yorker (and family where relevant) will migrate out of NYC.  If such out migration takes the former New Yorker to Westchester or Long Island, then NYS tax revenues will be unaffected.  Alternatively, if the former New Yorker moves to NJ and this person is now working in NJ (due to better rail connections and office space), then NYS tax revenues from this individual drop to nil.  Pretty clear that better NJ rail connections and office space are a hit to NYS tax revenues.




ml1
Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.


I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 


Runner_Guy
ml1 said:


Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 

No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.

New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.

https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  



proeasdf
ml1 said:


Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 

 The point is that East River bridges are free but Hudson bridges and tunnels are costly.  Port Authority is supposed to integrate the region's infrastructure.  My POV is lack of integration is the general rule.


And, Runner_Guy is correct about the significant up-charge for New Jerseyans on NYS Thruway, Bridge from NYC to Yonkers, etc.


basil
Runner_Guy said:


ml1 said:



Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  


Don't we have representation in Port Authority too? Why aren't we fixing it there?


BG9
Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  

Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.

When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 

For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   


proeasdf
BG9 said:


Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   

 Port Authority's mission is to integrate the transportation system in the NY/NJ area.  I do not see this happening.  As a matter of fact, I see exactly the opposite happening.


proeasdf
basil said:


Runner_Guy said:

ml1 said:



Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  


Click to Read More
Runner_Guy said:

ml1 said:



Runner_Guy said:
 Why would you want to give New Yorkers a discount when they rip New Jerseyans off on MTA bridges & tunnels and the New York Thruway in order to pay for their own bloated construction projects?  For the Triboro Bridge and Verrazzano Bridges, the Jersey premium is $5-$6.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.  Don't New Yorkers pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans when they return home?  Or is your assumption that everyone who enters NJ from NY never goes back? 
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  


Don't we have representation in Port Authority too? Why aren't we fixing it there?

 Apparently, PA representation and goals are a political process.  And, New Jerseyans are generally on the losing end of that political process at the PA.


BG9
proeasdf said:


BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
Click to Read More
BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
 Port Authority's mission is to integrate the transportation system in the NY/NJ area.  I do not see this happening.  As a matter of fact, I see exactly the opposite happening.

Their mission is not to integrate. Its to keep transportation moving on their facilities. They do not control NJ Transit and the MTA. They cannot cause integration with those agencies.

As, for keeping transportation moving, they seem to do a decent. Their bridges and tunnels are well maintained and the Path trains run reliably. Their airports handle heavy traffic without undue delay.


FilmCarp
BG9 said:


proeasdf said:

BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
Click to Read More
proeasdf said:

BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
Click to Read More
BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
 Port Authority's mission is to integrate the transportation system in the NY/NJ area.  I do not see this happening.  As a matter of fact, I see exactly the opposite happening.
 Port Authority's mission is to integrate the transportation system in the NY/NJ area.  I do not see this happening.  As a matter of fact, I see exactly the opposite happening.
Click to Read More
proeasdf said:

BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
Click to Read More
BG9 said:

Runner_Guy said:
No. New Yorkers do not pay the same tolls as New Jerseyans do on the MTA bridges & tunnels, the New York Thruway, the Tappan Zee Bridge etc.
New York State has one price for people with EZ passes registered in New York and a different higher price for people with EZ passes from other states.  The non-New Yorker EZ price is listed as the "toll by mail" price, which is the same price New York would charge a New Yorker who didn't have EZ pass.

If you examine this chart, the price differential is quite large.  Even the Henry Hudson Bridge is a $7 toll for a non-New Yorker, versus $2.80 for a New Yorker.
https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/B%26T_toll_tables_03-08-19.pdf

As I mentioned before, NJ only charges a non-resident premium on the Turnpike, and it's barely $3.  
Its not New Yorkers vs New Jerseyans that determine the EZ Pass discount. Its which agency issues the EZ Pass tag. A NJ resident gets the discounted NY EZ-Pass rates when using a NY EZ-Pass. Any NJ resident can open a NY EZ-Pass account.
When EZ Pass first came out discounts applied to all EZ Pass users no matter who issued them. Then, I believe, NJ changed the tariffs so that the Turnpike EZ Pass discount only applies to NJ issued EZ Passes. Whereupon, NY followed so that only NY EZ Passes gets you a discounts in NY. 
For Port Authority crossings a NJ or a NY EZ Pass will get you the discount because the PA is a joint agency of NY and NJ.   
 Port Authority's mission is to integrate the transportation system in the NY/NJ area.  I do not see this happening.  As a matter of fact, I see exactly the opposite happening.
Their mission is not to integrate. Its to keep transportation moving on their facilities. They do not control NJ Transit and the MTA. They cannot cause integration with those agencies.
As, for keeping transportation moving, they seem to do a decent. Their bridges and tunnels are well maintained and the Path trains run reliably. Their airports handle heavy traffic without undue delay.

 I agree in principle, but too much port authority money is diverted into redevelopment projects.  I don't like that at all.  I'll pay the tolls to improve transportation infrastructure, but I don't want to subsidize developers in any way.


Runner_Guy

I agree that NJTransit's woes are due in part to underfunding, but we should also frankly acknowledge that American construction costs are very high and New Jersey/New York construction costs are the country's most exorbitant.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/04/7-reasons-us-infrastructure-projects-cost-way-more-they-should/8799/

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/03/03/why-american-costs-are-so-high-work-in-progress/



basil
Runner_Guy said:
I agree that NJTransit's woes are due in part to underfunding, but we should also frankly acknowledge that American construction costs are very high and New Jersey/New York construction costs are the country's most exorbitant.
https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/04/7-reasons-us-infrastructure-projects-cost-way-more-they-should/8799/

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/03/03/why-american-costs-are-so-high-work-in-progress/


So american infrastructure projects are expensive because we pump money in our economy by paying our workers well, buy american goods, spend on local administration, and do not charge consumes for it. I would say that is all the more reason we should spend on infrastructure.


Runner_Guy
basil said:

Runner_Guy
said:
I agree that NJTransit's woes are due in part to underfunding, but we should also frankly acknowledge that American construction costs are very high and New Jersey/New York construction costs are the country's most exorbitant.
https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/04/7-reasons-us-infrastructure-projects-cost-way-more-they-should/8799/

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/03/03/why-american-costs-are-so-high-work-in-progress/
So american infrastructure projects are expensive because we pump money in our economy by paying our workers well, buy american goods, spend on local administration, and do not charge consumes for it. I would say that is all the more reason we should spend on infrastructure.

Do you see the purpose of building transportation infrastructure to stimulate the economy and bolster unions or to create a useful service that people can use for ..... transportation? especially relatively environmentally-friendly rail transportation?  

If the former, then by all means, let's keep the status quo or do whatever is necessary to make the rest of the country like NJ/NY. 

If the latter, then let's streamline the permitting process, environmental review processes, open up the bidding process, and reduce the union featherbedding.  

I support the two-fold justification for building transportation infrastructure, but I think that when America's infrastructure costs have become the highest in the world that vital infrastructure projects don't get built in the first place that the pendulum has to shift towards lowering costs.  

Also, I don't think that rail infrastructure built through a heavily-built up area should be subject to the same environmental scrutiny as a project built on pristine land.  It's ridiculous.  Rail travel is the most environmentally sound mode of transportation there is.  Everything should be done to facilitate this mode of travel.


When I think of the crisis of the North River Tunnels and the Portal Bridge, I am astounded by the fact that this infrastructure was built before WWI by a private business, and that the North River tunnels were dug in only four years.

It's fantastic that construction has become safer, but I find it hard to believe that with all our technological advances and the fact that New Jersey, New York, and the Port Authority have much greater resources than the old Pennsylvania Railroad, that we cannot do in the 21st century what a private business was able to do in the early 20th.




FilmCarp

I guess "featherbedding" means paying a living wage and having safe working conditions.  At least 50 men died in the first 6 months of construction on the original tunnels.  


jimmurphy

Nothing at all against unions Filmcarp, but I can say that the level of productivity that I’ve seen firsthand on PA and MTA projects has been less-than-impressive. Also, master mechanics, oilers, electricians to man pumps 24/7. There is a bit of waste.



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