The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

 

But because Scott's story doesn't fit the left's narrative that this country is utterly failed and broken with regard to race, it's "BS".   

 and there it is. Didn't we spend a week on this already?

ETA:  how exactly doesn't Scott's story fit "the left's narrative", as you call it.

 why make an argument with facts when one can just throw out a right wing talking point?

ml1 said:

 you seem to be working really hard to either misunderstand or mischaracterize my point.  Maybe if your first reflex wasn't to disagree, you could give some more thought to what you're reading.

as with anything, context is really important.  Scott was giving the rebuttal to Biden's address.  He wasn't speaking to the Boys and Girls' Club.  So it was his biographical, inspirational story being used to argue that average people don't need proposed government programs to give them better preschool, day care, or access to high speed internet.  And as PVW pointed out above, for most U.S. families, upward mobility isn't as easy as being prayerful and working hard.

To argue that Biden's proposals are not needed or wanted by most Americans because they can do what Scott did is indeed a BS argument.  It's a logical fallacy.  To tell people they don't need any sort of government programs to succeed because he didn't is a very common conservative argument to be sure, but it doesn't make it a valid one.

So that's the point I'm making spelled out.  I wasn't calling Scott's life story BS, and I wasn't suggesting some people wouldn't find it inspiring (I'm sure many do).

 tl;dr: if Scott wants his story to be less of an outlier, he should be making speeches in support of Biden's agenda rather than opposing it.

mtierney said:

nuff said....

One difference is, South Carolina Woke troopers aren’t armed. 

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

 

But because Scott's story doesn't fit the left's narrative that this country is utterly failed and broken with regard to race, it's "BS".   

 and there it is. Didn't we spend a week on this already?

ETA:  how exactly doesn't Scott's story fit "the left's narrative", as you call it.

 why make an argument with facts when one can just throw out a right wing talking point?

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

Biden and Harris are politicians.  There is no way they'd ever answer that "Yes, America *is* a racist country."

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

 I disagree, but I'm also not especially invested in that discussion. If anything, it seems more an expression of white fragility -- to say that a country has "a lot of work to do on race" while saying it's "not a racist country" feels like a pretty meaningless distinction, but one needed to reassure Americans who can't handle concepts like structural racism.

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

 

But because Scott's story doesn't fit the left's narrative that this country is utterly failed and broken with regard to race, it's "BS".   

 and there it is. Didn't we spend a week on this already?

ETA:  how exactly doesn't Scott's story fit "the left's narrative", as you call it.

 why make an argument with facts when one can just throw out a right wing talking point?

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

 it's a BS question that doesn't have a tidy yes/no answer.

and I understand why you don't want me to characterize your arguments.  If I used "logic" the way you do, I'd be sensitive about it too.

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

 

But because Scott's story doesn't fit the left's narrative that this country is utterly failed and broken with regard to race, it's "BS".   

 and there it is. Didn't we spend a week on this already?

ETA:  how exactly doesn't Scott's story fit "the left's narrative", as you call it.

 why make an argument with facts when one can just throw out a right wing talking point?

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

 it's a BS question that doesn't have a tidy yes/no answer.

and I understand why you don't want me to characterize your arguments.  If I used "logic" the way you do, I'd be sensitive about it too.

 Someone needs a hug. 

jimmurphy said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree.  

Biden and Harris are politicians.  There is no way they'd ever answer that "Yes, America *is* a racist country."

If Smedley is interested in elaboration, the second link that ml1 posted at 8:33 a.m. yesterday addresses this.

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

nohero said:

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 I think for many people, "racism" is understood primarily as an individual trait. And while this is definitely part of it, it is far short of the entirety of it. Driving and walking around suburban Essex, I see plenty of Black Lives Matter signs, but in many of these towns and neighborhoods, precious few actual black lives. I'm sure many of the people in these towns would not call themselves racist, would even tell a survey that they would be happy to live next door to someone of a different race, and yet here we are with extremely segregated towns all the same.

I'm complicit in this. You're complicit in this. We all are. The question of "are you a racist" is, to a large extent, an irrelevant one. The better question is, given the racist structures in our society, what are we collectively and individually doing to dismantle these?

ETA -- hopefully understood, but the "you" here is general, not meant to be nohero specifically.

DaveSchmidt said:

If Smedley is interested in elaboration, the second link that ml1 posted at 8:33 a.m. yesterday addresses this.

 he don't need no stinkin' links 

Smedley said:

 Someone needs a hug. 

 I can't hug you virtually, but I'll offer you my sincere apology for hurting your feelings. 

nohero said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

Smedley said:

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

 I'll certainly admit that while I can answer you query as to if I think that's a BS question, I can't speak to whether Biden or Harris think it's a BS question.

Smedley said:

nohero said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

you've really got to be kidding.

read their answers. They said no, we're not a racist country, and then went on to explain (in politician-speak) why we're a racist country.

Smedley said:

nohero said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

 Point me to their responses, on which you based your statement, and then I'll decide whether your most recent response is accurate or not.

Other questions I can't answer -- does Pres. Biden really believe that Republicans can be convinced to work with him? Does Sen. Manchin? Does Sen. Scott truly believe that America is not a racist country? When politicians offer up thoughts and prayers, what specifically are they thinking, and who are they praying to? When high level officials say they're leaving to spend more time with their families, do they?

nohero said:

Smedley said:

nohero said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

 Point me to their responses, on which you based your statement, and then I'll decide whether your most recent response is accurate or not.

 It's all out there in the news. https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/29/politics/kamala-harris-tim-scott/index.html

PVW said:

Other questions I can't answer -- does Pres. Biden really believe that Republicans can be convinced to work with him? Does Sen. Manchin? Does Sen. Scott truly believe that America is not a racist country? When politicians offer up thoughts and prayers, what specifically are they thinking, and who are they praying to? When high level officials say they're leaving to spend more time with their families, do they?

 Re Scott - even he admits to being stopped while driving Black. Is that not the mark of a racist country?

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

nohero said:

Smedley said:

President Biden and Vice President Harris both said they think America is not a racist country. I agree. 

Yes they also noted that there's a lot of work to do on race. Which I also agree with.   

But back to their headline statement. Riddle me this, gentlemen. Do you agree or disagree with Biden's and Harris' stated belief that America is not a racist country? Based on your posts, it seems like you would disagree and classify their statements as "BS". Certainly if I said it and they didn't, that's what you would call it. 

But I'd like to hear it from you. Agree or disagree? (ml1, please no long convoluted diatribes calling my arguments big words and using fancy links. It's a simple question.)  

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

 Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

you've really got to be kidding.

read their answers. They said no, we're not a racist country, and then went on to explain (in politician-speak) why we're a racist country.

 Ok, that is your interpretation. But if that's the case, why didn't they just say we're a racist country, and then explain why we're a racist country?  Especially Biden, who at 78 and at the tail end of his political career has earned the right to speak the truth as he sees it and not give a f what people think. 

Smedley said:

Especially Biden, who at 78 and at the tail end of his political career has earned the right to speak the truth as he sees it and not give a f what people think. 

If they hope to accomplish certain things before the last Jan. 20 of their term(s), presidents need to give a f what people think.

DaveSchmidt said:

Smedley said:

Especially Biden, who at 78 and at the tail end of his political career has earned the right to speak the truth as he sees it and not give a f what people think. 

If they hope to accomplish certain things before the last Jan. 20 of their term(s), presidents need to give a f what people think.

 Ok, so if I'm reading you right, it sounds like you, and db, think Biden lied when he said he believes the U.S. is not a racist country. Is that correct?

What determines what makes a country racist or not?  It's completely up to interpretation by the individual.  There is no right or wrong answer to this question.  What metrics is everyone using  to make their determination?

Smedley said:

 Ok, so if I'm reading you right, it sounds like you, and db, think Biden lied when he said he believes the U.S. is not a racist country. Is that correct?

No.

ETA: Answering for myself, not DB.

drummerboy said:

 Re Scott - even he admits to being stopped while driving Black. Is that not the mark of a racist country?

 Doesn't strike me as that important of a question, but I'm expecting at least two more pages of comments about it.

Make it stop!

I'm pretty much still in the same place I was last time this came up -- unclear on what utility trying trying to gauge how "racist" a country the US is when we know the country has a racial caste system that hinders and oppresses its citizens. If one admits that "we have a long way to go" on race, then I struggle to understand how it's at all relevant how one answers the question of "is the US a racist country."

Smedley said:

DaveSchmidt said:

Smedley said:

Especially Biden, who at 78 and at the tail end of his political career has earned the right to speak the truth as he sees it and not give a f what people think. 

If they hope to accomplish certain things before the last Jan. 20 of their term(s), presidents need to give a f what people think.

 Ok, so if I'm reading you right, it sounds like you, and db, think Biden lied when he said he believes the U.S. is not a racist country. Is that correct?

 it depends. what do you think "racist country" means? What do you think Biden thinks it means? And do you think the question can honestly be answered with a simple yes or no?

Smedley said:

nohero said:

Smedley said:

nohero said:

It's a b u l l s h i t question.  It's usually asked by someone who wants to use the answer to go off on their own tangent, such as "How could a racist country elect Barack Obama?" etc.

Nobody should answer "yes" or "no" to a question that uses such a vaguely-defined term as "racist country".  

Being more specific with language makes the opponents of antiracism uncomfortable.  For example, the question "Is systemic racism still a problem in our country" can be more easily answered, and even the election of an African American president doesn't show that systemic racism has been "solved". 

Ok, but politicians are notorious for not directly answering questions, and Biden and Harris both answered directly. So they didn't seem to think it was a b u l l s h i t question.  

Point me to their responses, on which you based your statement, and then I'll decide whether your most recent response is accurate or not.

It's all out there in the news. https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/29/politics/kamala-harris-tim-scott/index.html

I didn't want to answer based on what's "out there in the news", I asked to what you were referring in your statement "Biden and Harris answered directly".  This is what your statement was based on:

Here's Biden -

Biden, pressed on if he thought America was racist, told NBC News in an interview Thursday, "No, I don't think the American people are racist, but I think after 400 years, African Americans have been left in a position where they are so behind the eight ball, in terms of education, health, in terms of opportunity."

Here's Harris - 

"No. I don't think America is a racist country but we also do have to speak truth about the history of racism in our country and its existence today," Harris said. "I applaud the President for always having the ability and the courage, frankly, to speak the truth about it."

Harris noted that domestic terrorism manifested by White supremacists is "one of the greatest threats to our national security."

She continued, "These are issues that we must confront and it doesn't -- it does not help to heal our country, to unify us as a people, to ignore the realities of that and I think the President has been outstanding and a real national leader on the issue ... We want to unify the country, but not without speaking truth and requiring accountability as appropriate."

So neither fell into the trap, which I had pointed out, of answering "Yes" or "No" to the bullsiht question. This is contrary to the claim you made in this thread.