Voting against your interests or Now I Need Obamacare

Tons of confusion going on while watching some town hall meetings. Some Trump voters who cheered and loved when he said he'd dismantle Obamacare are now whining that they're poor and need Obamacare. Did they miss his message? Or were they enjoying the side show of people getting beat up and shoved around at the rally's to truly pay attention?

He's doing exactly what he said he'd do. Why the shock and awe?


I think a lot of these people are so caught up in the race-baiting that dominates conservative media and politics that they don't even hear the words that their candidates say. When Donald Trump and others said that they were going to cut benefits like Obamacare, these people heard "for those other folks" at the end of each sentence.

Whether you call it white privilege or something else, they can't believe their heroes were playing a different kind of "us vs. them" game than they thought. Republicans said what they needed to say to get votes, but they are color-blind when it comes to their determination to give a larger share of the pie to the wealthy. What you're seeing, and what I believe will get worse, is the outraged reaction when Trump voters realize that when they said everybody would lose benefits, they actually meant white people, too.



Stoughton said:

I think a lot of these people are so caught up in the race-baiting that dominates conservative media and politics that they don't even hear the words that their candidates say. When Donald Trump and others said that they were going to cut benefits like Obamacare, these people heard "for those other folks" at the end of each sentence.

+1

Just like many elderly voted for Trump because he's going to cut entitlements for "those people."

What will they say when the Republicans cut the Soc Sec and the Medicare entitlements or privatize Medicare with vouchers?


Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.


terp said:

Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.

No... emotional gut reaction overtook logic. It's a common human brain condition.

It is so common that it is a fairly easy-to-use tool for manipulation.


If that's true, maybe democracy isn't such a good idea question

sprout said:


terp said:

Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.

No... emotional gut reaction overtook logic. It's a common human brain condition.

It is so common that it is a fairly easy-to-use tool for manipulation.



It's not that democracy isn't a good idea, it's that democracy is somewhat fragile. For example, fear is one way to manipulate democracy into fascism.

As our democracy isn't pure, but more of an alloy, hopefully the influence of emotion is dampened.

Also, it's possible that history has better prepared the people to battle attempts at emotional manipulation, propaganda, and fascism. We shall see if the tools work well enough to get the pendulum to swing back the other way in a few years.

terp said:

If that's true, maybe democracy isn't such a good idea question
sprout said:


terp said:

Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.

No... emotional gut reaction overtook logic. It's a common human brain condition.

It is so common that it is a fairly easy-to-use tool for manipulation.



One problem is that life is pretty complicated and stressed out people are pretty susceptible to demagogues with simple answers. Or, as H.L. Mencken observed, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong". Of course, H.L. Mencken had any number of observations that apply very well to our times.

terp said:

If that's true, maybe democracy isn't such a good idea question
sprout said:


terp said:

Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.

No... emotional gut reaction overtook logic. It's a common human brain condition.

It is so common that it is a fairly easy-to-use tool for manipulation.



I like that one, @tjohn. In essence, many of us are sheep (which I long suspected)?

So stressed and susceptible people vote for demagogues, and probably more than once or twice in their life time, one has to assume that the lesson of listening carefully to their candidates platform prior to voting is lost on this sect of people and therefore, they continue to constantly vote against their interests.


One of the things that would fit into HL Menckens problem statement below is the centralization of services. If you know anything about him, he would rip you all for believing in that clear and simple solution.

I don't think most here are any smarter than the Trump voter. I think most people are pretty tribal and don't care much for things like facts or logic. This is hard work and it is not something that is stressed in our schools. It's a real problem. The American people are not equipped to navigate these issues, and thus are not equipped to elect people who are.

People are not equipped to think through these issues. Democracy doesn't work, and was never the goal here. Republics do not scale to the size of America.

Yet, the simple clearest solution is centralization. It is why people think we can't live without things like the Department of Education. Yet, it wasn't created until 1979. And I'm not sure the quality of Education has improved since then.

It's a real problem.

tjohn said:

One problem is that life is pretty complicated and stressed out people are pretty susceptible to demagogues with simple answers. Or, as H.L. Mencken observed, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong". Of course, H.L. Mencken had any number of observations that apply very well to our times.
terp said:

If that's true, maybe democracy isn't such a good idea question
sprout said:


terp said:

Ha! They're stupid! I fear the public schools have failed them.

No... emotional gut reaction overtook logic. It's a common human brain condition.

It is so common that it is a fairly easy-to-use tool for manipulation.



for what it's worth, the confusion of people over Obamacare can largely be blamed at the feet of the Dems. Ever since the ACA was passed, the R's have controlled the narrative, lying about the ACA and distorting the growing pains that any large program would have. So most people never heard much pushback against : Obama said you can keep your doctors! Premiums are through the roof!! High deductibles!! Death panels! Death spiral!! It's a disaster!!

Trump voters live in enough of an info bubble that this is all they heard. It would be hard to get through in any case, but the Dems just up and gave up, pretty much running away from the program the minute it was passed.

But the truth is the truth, and ACA is what it is. And what it is, is a huge help for millions of people. Not perfect by a long shot, but better than what was there, and 100 times better than what the R's can ever come up with.



terp said:

Yet, the simple clearest solution is centralization. It is why people think we can't live without things like the Department of Education. Yet, it wasn't created until 1979. And I'm not sure the quality of Education has improved since then.

Clearly, you know it existed prior to 1979 as Health, Education and Welfare.


terp said:

People are not equipped to think through these issues. Democracy doesn't work, and was never the goal here. Republics do not scale to the size of America.

There is no one pure system that "works" best and longest. And what does "work" mean, and for whom? The goal of nations is to survive. The fulfillment of some perfect theoretical ideology tends to fall by the wayside shortly after the revolution, as human reality sets in.


Yeah. It was a relatively minor office of the FSA.

Steve said:



terp said:

Yet, the simple clearest solution is centralization. It is why people think we can't live without things like the Department of Education. Yet, it wasn't created until 1979. And I'm not sure the quality of Education has improved since then.


Clearly, you know it existed prior to 1979 as Health, Education and Welfare.



sprout said:


terp said:

People are not equipped to think through these issues. Democracy doesn't work, and was never the goal here. Republics do not scale to the size of America.

There is no one pure system that "works" best and longest. And what does "work" mean, and for whom? The goal of nations is to survive. The fulfillment of some perfect theoretical ideology tends to fall by the wayside shortly after the revolution, as human reality sets in.

Oddly, the FSA was created during one of America's inflection points towards radical centralization. This by a president who is widely worshiped by both sides of the aisle. This president who is seen as one of our greats also intimidated the Judiciary, and imprisoned many Americans due to their ethnicity.

I wonder if any emotional manipulation was at play. I'd also like to add these were all simple, clear solutions.

Edited to Add: That's actually a really interesting post. I would agree that no one pure system works best and longest and there is no system that is going to please everyone. That is why I advocate decentralization. However, when decentralization is brought up in the United States there is a tendency for most to attack with an almost religious fervor.


FDR. FSA was in 1939. That is when the Office of Education was established. This is the Office you were referring to that ultimately became the Dept of Ed.


yes, but in 53 it became HEW. Education was a major component by that time. You knew that, though.


a lot of people simply didn't know that "Obamacare" was exactly the same thing as their health insurance


another failure of Dem messaging

ml1 said:

a lot of people simply didn't know that "Obamacare" was exactly the same thing as their health insurance




drummerboy said:

another failure of Dem messaging

ml1 said:

a lot of people simply didn't know that "Obamacare" was exactly the same thing as their health insurance

Positive messaging is hard.

Negative messaging (death tax, Obamacare, crazy check, etc) is easy.

"They're giving away Obamaphones to these lazy bastards."

Well, the program to which you are referring was actually initiated by President GW Bush and provides a valuable resource for those in search of employment while serving an important public safety function at a very reasonable cos....

"Obamaphone!"

Hmm, let me try again. People simply cannot obtain employment without a telephone number. It's just not possible. We can provide this for just a few d....

"Obamaphone! Obamaphone! *crowd joins* Obamaphone! OBAMAPHONE!!!"


yup. agreed. it's hard. but they should at least try. I'm sure they can come up with one or two word buzzwords that capture a positive aspect, just like "death panels" is negative.

I mean, it's just words...

RobB said:



drummerboy said:

another failure of Dem messaging

ml1 said:

a lot of people simply didn't know that "Obamacare" was exactly the same thing as their health insurance

Positive messaging is hard.

Negative messaging (death tax, Obamacare, crazy check, etc) is easy.

"They're giving away Obamaphones to these lazy bastards."

Well, the program to which you are referring was actually initiated by President GW Bush and provides a valuable resource for those in search of employment while serving an important public safety function at a very reasonable cos....

"Obamaphone!"

Hmm, let me try again. People simply cannot obtain employment without a telephone number. It's just not possible. We can provide this for just a few d....

"Obamaphone! Obamaphone! *crowd joins* Obamaphone! OBAMAPHONE!!!"



Obamaphone has to be one of the funniest nouns ever created. I smile just reading it


And while on the subject of health care in America:


US Life Expectancy Falls Behind

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39040146

Imperial College London and the World Health Organization analyzed life spans in 35 industrialized countries. It predicted all would see people living longer in 2030 and the gap between men and women would start to close in most
countries.

However, the US performs poorly and is on course to have the lowest life expectancy of rich countries by 2030. The study predicts an average age of 80 for men and 83 for women - roughly the same state Mexico and Croatia will have achieved. "They are almost opposite of South Korea," added Prof Ezzati.

"[Society in the US is] very unequal to an extent the whole national performance is affected - it is the only country without universal health insurance. "And it is the first country that has stopped growing taller, which shows something about early life nutrition."

The US will be overtaken by Chile, where women born in 2030 will expect to live for 87 years and men for 81.


There has been poll after poll that shows a large segment of people that when asked about individual pieces of Obamacare without "Obama" attached they approve of it.

Also a large number of people think the ACA is not Obamacare. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/one-third-dont-know-obamacare-and-affordable-care-act-are-the-same.html?_r=0


Let's look at what the ACA did fix and didn't fix. It did lower the rate of increases, but it didn't stop the increases. It put more people onto insurance, but there are still uninsured. It made insurance affordable to many but not to everyone. It did nothing to make navigating insurance and claims and forms, and that's a big deal. The system is insanely complicated, enough that it's a joke to call it a system at all. If you don't understand a good portion of it, it's not clear what the causes of your frustrations of it are, and it makes sense to say it's a disaster. Well, disaster is too strong a word, but there it is.

I think it's good that ACA was passed, and I was a beneficiary: I got more for less. But not everyone was. And some are left out in the cold. Some have to pay fines for not having insurance.


For a lot of people, health insurance, in general, is a complete PITA. In any case, while it is true that the ACA is far from perfect, I still believe that if Obama had showed up to a race with Usain Bolt as his sprinter, the Republicans would have knee-capped him and then complained that he couldn't run.

I wonder what we could accomplish if there was a political consensus to make healthcare affordable and accessible to the maximum number of Americans feasible.

Tom_Reingold said:

Let's look at what the ACA did fix and didn't fix. It did lower the rate of increases, but it didn't stop the increases. It put more people onto insurance, but there are still uninsured. It made insurance affordable to many but not to everyone. It did nothing to make navigating insurance and claims and forms, and that's a big deal. The system is insanely complicated, enough that it's a joke to call it a system at all. If you don't understand a good portion of it, it's not clear what the causes of your frustrations of it are, and it makes sense to say it's a disaster. Well, disaster is too strong a word, but there it is.

I think it's good that ACA was passed, and I was a beneficiary: I got more for less. But not everyone was. And some are left out in the cold. Some have to pay fines for not having insurance.



@tjohn, I fully agree with you, and I enjoyed your Bolt comment.

I believe there is consensus about what needs fixing, but not among those who write the laws. Many laws do not work for the people they are supposed to serve. That's why there is anger on both ends of the political spectrum.


Mencken was a libertarian before the word was even invented, I think. He was an equal opportunity hater and mocker of politicians and ideologues across the political spectrum.


Seems to me that Mencken was a bit of an a$$hole. He made a lot of very clever and cynical observations about human beings but seems to be a bit short of humanity.

bub said:

Mencken was a libertarian before the word was even invented, I think. He was an equal opportunity hater and mocker of politicians and ideologues across the political spectrum.



again, this just points to my assertion about the Dems failure at messaging.

eliz said:

There has been poll after poll that shows a large segment of people that when asked about individual pieces of Obamacare without "Obama" attached they approve of it.

Also a large number of people think the ACA is not Obamacare. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/upshot/one-third-dont-know-obamacare-and-affordable-care-act-are-the-same.html?_r=0



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