Trump Tax Returns Leaked

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

It's really simple. Trump is pretending to be an outsider, an advocate for the little people, a blue collar billionaire, etc., etc. Against that backdrop of bullshit, his taxes tell a different story.

RealityForAll said:

Tom, not what we are discussing here. What standard, other than the legal standard, should a presidential candidate be held up to?

If presidential candidates should be held to a higher standard then would we also apply the higher ethical standard to HRC?

tom said:

Trump's tax proposals would not only "fix" the current problem, it would make it so that people like him would pay even less than they do now.

Just eliminating the estate tax, by itself, would be a tremendous windfall to his family.

His plans to solve the problems are nothing more than transparent plans to enrich himself even further.

tjohn, I can agree with your comment "Trump is pretending to be an outsider, an advocate for the little people, a blue collar billionaire."

However, the outcry about DJT's utilization of the NOL Carryforward does not seem to stand up to scrutiny.

tjohn said:

It's really simple. Trump is pretending to be an outsider, an advocate for the little people, a blue collar billionaire, etc., etc. Against that backdrop of bullshit, his taxes tell a different story.

RealityForAll said:

Tom, not what we are discussing here. What standard, other than the legal standard, should a presidential candidate be held up to?

If presidential candidates should be held to a higher standard then would we also apply the higher ethical standard to HRC?

tom said:

Trump's tax proposals would not only "fix" the current problem, it would make it so that people like him would pay even less than they do now.

Just eliminating the estate tax, by itself, would be a tremendous windfall to his family.

His plans to solve the problems are nothing more than transparent plans to enrich himself even further.

Without relisting all the Trump scams and cons, and knowing what we do about the bulk of Trumps business practices, including enriching himself with outside donations into the Trump "foundation" and paying himself and his businesses the "rental" income for his "headquarters", looking at the paltry salary Trump paid himself - 6K, while taking a 900+m loss on his books appears a little bit, no a lot like something dishonest bordering on criminal.

Maybe theres nothing there. I don't know, but it sure seems a lot more unseemly than "successful" businessman like.

How many prior candidates have been under IRS audit during the presidential election? None, other than DJT (that I know of). Seems to me that DJT should disclose tax returns for years not under audit.

mikescott said:

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

Why can't he disclose returns currently under audit. I'm sure the IRS wouldn't mind.

RealityForAll said:

How many prior candidates have been under IRS audit during the presidential election? None, other than DJT that I know of. Seems DJT should disclose tax returns for years not under audit.

mikescott said:

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

Sure it does. Just like the outcry about Al Gore bemoaning global warming from the front porch of his energy-gulping mansion.

RealityForAll said:

tjohn, I can agree with your comment "Trump is pretending to be an outsider, an advocate for the little people, a blue collar billionaire."

However, the outcry about DJT's utilization of the NOL Carryforward does not seem to stand up to scrutiny.

tjohn said:

Because DJT's attorneys have instructed him not to release them. If I was DJT's attorney, I would give the same advice.

tjohn said:

Why can't he disclose returns currently under audit. I'm sure the IRS wouldn't mind.

RealityForAll said:

How many prior candidates have been under IRS audit during the presidential election? None, other than DJT that I know of. Seems DJT should disclose tax returns for years not under audit.

mikescott said:

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

The IRS has stated there is nothing preventing any individual from sharing their tax information.

Probably to prevent any number of non-IRS tax experts from pointing out the questionable accounting in his tax returns.

RealityForAll said:

Because DJT's attorneys have instructed him not to release them. If I was DJT's attorney, I would give the same advice.

tjohn said:

Why can't he disclose returns currently under audit. I'm sure the IRS wouldn't mind.

RealityForAll said:

How many prior candidates have been under IRS audit during the presidential election? None, other than DJT that I know of. Seems DJT should disclose tax returns for years not under audit.

mikescott said:

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

Same type of comment that the police make in an interrogation after giving the Miranda warning.

yahooyahoo said:

The IRS has stated there is nothing preventing any individual from sharing their tax information.

yahooyahoo said:

The IRS has stated there is nothing preventing any individual from sharing their tax information.

Exactly. Sharing the returns with the public won't affect the audit. The IRS already have his returns. As do his accountants.

tjohn: sounds like your analysis is based on a hunch. Once again DJT is a dirty SOB who cheats the little guy, But we are country of principles. And, that means you should not infer a negative connotation to DJT to following the advice of counsel.

tjohn said:

Probably to prevent any number of non-IRS tax experts from pointing out the questionable accounting in his tax returns.

RealityForAll said:

Because DJT's attorneys have instructed him not to release them. If I was DJT's attorney, I would give the same advice.

tjohn said:

Why can't he disclose returns currently under audit. I'm sure the IRS wouldn't mind.

RealityForAll said:

How many prior candidates have been under IRS audit during the presidential election? None, other than DJT that I know of. Seems DJT should disclose tax returns for years not under audit.

mikescott said:

Reality: the standard has been set over the years. For one, the standard is to release past tax returns, even though not a legal requirement. In the end it is up to each voter, but one would hope we do not lower ourselves to choose the worst just because they did not do anything illegal (well at least not caught ). There is enough evidence that Trump stiffed many people over the years and threatened them if they dared to fight back by using any means. His real estate company did discriminate against blacks (ok, he "settled without admitting guilt" but still guilty moraly).

Trump is the worst of the worst and you can bet any changes he wants in the tax laws are for his advantage and no one else.

The only reason this election is not going to be a landslide is because HRC is a lousy candidate and while she is IMHO a hundred times better than Trump, the American people have allowed a primary process to remain in place that does nothing to help us choose the best candidate.

Trump is perceived as being a successful business person but is clearly much more successful as a con-man.

Using the audit as an excuse is BS. He can release them. His first excuse was his supporters do not care if he releases them. there is no LEGAL for him not to release the returns. It is safe to say there are things in his returns he does not want anyone to see... ever. It would be a safe bet that he still would not release them even if there was no audit.

You know this how?

BG9 said:

Exactly. Sharing the returns with the public won't affect the audit. The IRS already have his returns. As do his accountants.

The tax returns as a matter of law concern Donald and the IRS. I really doubt that the IRS cares if he makes his returns public.

The tax returns as a public relations problem concern Donald and the people of the United States.

RealityForAll said:

Tom, not what we are discussing here. What standard, other than the legal standard, should a presidential candidate be held up to?

If presidential candidates should be held to a higher standard then would we also apply the higher ethical standard to HRC?

tom said:

Trump's tax proposals would not only "fix" the current problem, it would make it so that people like him would pay even less than they do now.

Just eliminating the estate tax, by itself, would be a tremendous windfall to his family.

His plans to solve the problems are nothing more than transparent plans to enrich himself even further.

I'll put the standard simply:

They should not use the office of President Of The United States to personally enrich themselves.

nohero said:

Tom_Reingold said:
...
There are people like this in various circles. I've met some in the Hamptons. They blend in like the actually wealthy people, and you might not be able to tell them apart, but they are leaches. Trump is just the biggest of them all.

Losing money is his actual business model. This is not how things are supposed to work, and you can give it your best shot and fail, having the best of intentions, but this is not what's happening here. Taking advantage of the laws is not OK in this case.
...

I read someplace that Donald Trump's business model is essentially the same as Max Bialystock's.

Exactly. It's clear enough to me.

Simply using available tax breaks isn't on it's own a deal breaker. One could conceivably argue in favor of them, or at least make a defense of using them, as RfA is doing.

But Trump hasn't done this. It'd be one thing if he made an argument like "Wealthy people like myself can pay nothing in taxes while regular folks pay a lot, and I'm going to change that," but he's actually doing the opposite, promising tax breaks that will further personally benefit him (in contrast to Clinton, for instance, who will end up paying more in taxes should her tax proposals become law).

Or he could have started his campaign by admitting how little he pays in taxes and spun that as a virtue, as some variant of trickle-down economics. While I don't find that economic theory compelling, it has the virtue of at least being an argument, which again is more than Trump has done.

Instead, Trump has refused to release his returns, and in fact seems to be very upset that these 20 year old returns were released. He's taking a lot of political damage here, yet his continued refusal to release his returns logically means whatever else we haven't seen is even more politically toxic.

Any argument defending Trump's tax strategy is far more coherent than Trump himself has been. Whatever possible merits one might ascribe to Trump's "strategy" in the abstract clearly don't apply to Trump the actual person running for president.

doing whatever one can do legally to avoid paying taxes is not a problem for me. I also don't care if Trump ends up releasing his tax returns. But it does make me suspect that a guy who claims to be "really rich" is probably sitting on a business built on a house of cards. The tenacity with which he's holding on to the tax returns likely has nothing to do with how little tax he pays. If what he's done is legal, his supporters won't hold it against him (nor should they).

But when a guy's entire rationale for running for POTUS is that he's a "winner" and a business genius, he should take every opportunity to prove that he really is. I suspect he personally owns nothing, and his corporation is leveraged up the wazoo. It's likely all smoke and mirrors and he doesn't want the public to find out what's behind the curtain.

I doubt his supporters are capable of grasping these nuances. They see a guy with gold toilets and a plane with his name on it and think he's Warren Buffett. The question for me is: What might change minds in a significant way? I just don't see this doing it. We already knew about the bankruptcies and spectacular failures of many of his businesses. It's been assumed all along that he wasn't paying income taxes. His followers just don't care.

ml1 said:



But when a guy's entire rationale for running for POTUS is that he's a "winner" and a business genius, he should take every opportunity to prove that he really is. I suspect he personally owns nothing, and his corporation is leveraged up the wazoo. It's likely all smoke and mirrors and he doesn't want the public to find out what's behind the curtain.

imonlysleeping said:

His followers just don't care.

That's simplistic.

Many evangelicals, for example, are voting for Trump because although they know he is an awful person, he will likely make Supreme Court appointments to their liking.

Some people are just angry and see electing Trump as the best way to mess with the status quo.

Still others, and these are the scary ones, actually believe and endorse the stuff that comes out of his mouth.

There are people whose industries have died who truly believe that cutting off trade ties with foreign countries will bring investment and jobs back here. He's going around the country telling people that factories and processing plants and mills that have been dead for 20+ years will be re-opened if he's elected.

Just like he told people that a degree from Trump University would lead to a lucrative career in real estate.

The guy's a con man and his followers are lining up to be conned.

Jackson_Fusion said:

tourn said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

unixiscool said:

Jackson_Fusion said:




These were state department functions, not foundation functions. They've fought the disclosure tooth and nail. By the formulation given earlier, that resistance to disclose means concealment of something, this is troubling- and the emails do nothing to allay the concern. Quite the contrary.

What ate you talking about, you can just go to their website and see the donor list. They released their donors before she became SS.

https://www.clintonfoundation.org/contributors/

Read the article again. I'm sure you'll get it the second time through.

Maybe your exposure to pesticides is affecting how you "get" things. Trump is a billion dollar loser who hasn't made a dime in a real business in years. Watch the Frontline special. He's just a TV personality who lives in a fantasy world where the truth is shunned. He will never release his taxes because they are the only thing about him that doesn't lie.

Jean Coutu called, your order is ready for pickup! Maybe this one will help.

At least it doesn't cost anything in Canada! And they've outlawed lawn chemicals.

I'm really surprised that he hasn't released fake returns. I mean, he lies about everything else, and it doesn't seem like it would be a crime.

If the IRS is auditing Trump, they would be verrry interested in fake returns that are floating around in the public domain.

Trump's use of NOLs and the resulting lack of tax liabilities could easily have been spun into a winning issue for him. Even he must know that.

It does seem more probable that withholding the returns has more to do with preventing the public from really understanding his business "empire". Absent better information, I'd have to assume that most of what he owns is leveraged to the hilt and that his equity in all of it is smaller than what he'd like us to believe, maybe even negative. We might also find out embarrassing stuff like how much one of his businesses deducts for whatever it is they do to his hair.

That said, the way the story is being presented by some ("He's avoiding paying his fair share for infrastructure" and "He's gaming the system" etc.) is completely absurd. When these folks voluntarily stop taking mortgage deductions and dependent credits on their own returns, then perhaps their arguments would be less hypocritical. But of course they'd be idiots to do that.

Trump does actually have it right when he talks about lowering rates and closing loopholes. What's so problematic about him is that he manages to distract himself and everybody else from that core message. (Well, that, and that some of his other core messages are pretty wacky)

there is legal, and then there's shady but legal. All of this fits into a pattern of Trump entering into one failing venture after another, and when the business goes south, he's the only one who walks away whole. The creditors get stiffed, he gets to write all the losses off and not pay taxes (for maybe two decades, who knows?). And he somehow gets off with his Trump Tower penthouse, Mar-a-Lago, the jets, the golden toilet seats and a TV show. His background suggests he's qualified only as a con man, not POTUS. Sure it's all legal, but it's hardly anything to admire. It doesn't suggest upstanding character.

Right, of all the legal charges that could be given to him, tax avoidance (which is different from tax evasion, right?) is the least likely to stick. There are enough criminal investigations going on to take him down if we wanted to take him down, such as the rape charge, the Trump University scam, and the illegal uses of his foundation. These three things, with the unadmirable way he does business and which the tax return exposes, ought to make it clear that he has none of the criteria that anyone wants as president. Unfortunately, the public has shown that it does not want to process this information rationally, so a rational appeal isn't sure to work.