The Ends Justify the Means

I thought that one of the criticisms of Communism was that the goal of universal well-being, while possibly good on its surface, was not good because of the enormous contribution and sacrifices each person must make for the greater good. The criticism is that the ends do not justify the means.

So Donald Trump says he is getting lots of support for his positions and his candidacy. He is projecting strength by ordering protesters out of his rallies. He is demanding that Muslims stay out of the US. Mexicans are rapists. So these are irresponsible, untrue statements. But these are all OK because he is getting lots of votes.

Well, this is the old "ends justify the means" argument. He is willing to use shock and awe language against Americans in order to get votes. This is not good.

 This is sinister and not good.

I remember 1968, and this is starting to look like it.

And this belongs in the Politics soapbox.

Done.

Trump will fall.

springgreen2 said:

Trump will fall.

H.L. Mencken: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

The full, unedited quote is even more to the point of this thread,.

"No one in this world, so far as I know - and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me, has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. NOR HAS ANYONE EVER LOST PUBLIC OFFICE THEREBY."

Be ready for President Trump.

Trump, more than any other politician, is able to tap into the fear and anger of a significant percentage of voters.  People are scared and angry because for most of them, life is more difficult and the future less certain than in the past.  Racism and xenophobia are derivatives of these fears.

And Trump is a showman.  Putting on a good show has always been a element of a good campaign.

Trump says at the podium what will make the crowd, his lowbrow thug crowd, excited. He's not a showman. He's a terrorist with a microphone. And he knows how to slither his way out of accountability. He bans people from his raucous rallies, and smiles.

Try reading some articles on how Trump is appealing to the hopes and fears of a lot of people whose economic situation is pretty lousy where in the not too distant past it was pretty good.  You can explain this away as racism or ignorance if that makes you feel better, but in so doing, you complete misread the situation.

springgreen2 said:

Trump says at the podium what will make the crowd, his lowbrow thug crowd, excited. He's not a showman. He's a terrorist with a microphone. And he knows how to slither his way out of accountability.

These masses of thugs never had anything. They would never do what they do if they ever had anything.

Does it make you feel better writing off large numbers of people as ignorant thugs?

springgreen2 said:

These masses of thugs never had anything. They would never do what they do if they ever had anything.

I wouldn't want them babysitting my grandchild, and if they lived in my neighborhood, which they do, I'd never, ever speak to them, which I don't. Why don't you see.if they will speak to you! So call it hatred, which it is, call it prejudice or discrimination, which it is. I hate them for their actions and words, not what they look like.

,

As I said, try reading some of the more thoughtful arguments as to why a lot of people are supporting Trump.  It isn't like these people really are drawn to his racist and xenophobic comments.  Nowadays, a lot of racism and xenophobia are derivatives of people feeling economic fear.

springgreen2 said:

I wouldn't want them babysitting my grandchild, and if they lived in my neighborhood, which they do, I'd never, ever speak to them, which I don't. Why don't you see.if they will speak to you! So call it hatred, which it is, call it prejudice or discrimination, which it is. I hate them for their actions and words, not what they look like.

tjohn said:

As I said, try reading some of the more thoughtful arguments as to why a lot of people are supporting Trump.  It isn't like these people really are drawn to his racist and xenophobic comments.  Nowadays, a lot of racism and xenophobia are derivatives of people feeling economic fear.

springgreen2 said:

I wouldn't want them babysitting my grandchild, and if they lived in my neighborhood, which they do, I'd never, ever speak to them, which I don't. Why don't you see.if they will speak to you! So call it hatred, which it is, call it prejudice or discrimination, which it is. I hate them for their actions and words, not what they look like.

No. Racism is taught from birth. It is a proclivity that does not require economic personal profiles.

You are very good at not reading anything anybody says to you.  Try opening your closed mind by reading this article:  http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support  Hilter wasn't popular because he wanted to exterminate European Jewry any more than Trump is popular because of his racsist and xenophobic rantings.

Now, while I have to admit that Trump is a scary person, I am not so close-minded as to be unwilling to consider why a lot of people support him.

springgreen2 said:

tjohn said:

As I said, try reading some of the more thoughtful arguments as to why a lot of people are supporting Trump.  It isn't like these people really are drawn to his racist and xenophobic comments.  Nowadays, a lot of racism and xenophobia are derivatives of people feeling economic fear.

springgreen2 said:

I wouldn't want them babysitting my grandchild, and if they lived in my neighborhood, which they do, I'd never, ever speak to them, which I don't. Why don't you see.if they will speak to you! So call it hatred, which it is, call it prejudice or discrimination, which it is. I hate them for their actions and words, not what they look like.

No. Racism is taught from birth. It is a proclivity that does not require economic personal profiles.

tjohn said:

You are very good at not reading anything anybody says to you.  Try opening your closed mind by reading this article:  http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support.  Hilter wasn't popular because he wanted to exterminate European Jewry any more than Trump is popular because of his racsist and xenophobic rantings.

Now, while I have to admit that Trump is a scary person, I am not so close-minded as to be unwilling to consider why a lot of people support him.




springgreen2 said:

tjohn said:

As I said, try reading some of the more thoughtful arguments as to why a lot of people are supporting Trump.  It isn't like these people really are drawn to his racist and xenophobic comments.  Nowadays, a lot of racism and xenophobia are derivatives of people feeling economic fear.

springgreen2 said:

I wouldn't want them babysitting my grandchild, and if they lived in my neighborhood, which they do, I'd never, ever speak to them, which I don't. Why don't you see.if they will speak to you! So call it hatred, which it is, call it prejudice or discrimination, which it is. I hate them for their actions and words, not what they look like.

No. Racism is taught from birth. It is a proclivity that does not require economic personal profiles.

It is so easy to smear an entire group by calling them racists rather than find the real reasons why, for example, the White working class is moving to Trump. 

BCC said:

It is so easy to smear an entire group by calling them racists rather than find the real reasons why, for example, the White working class is moving to Trump. 

It's quite a problem, actually.  I can understand the appeal of a promise to bring back the good old days, but countering this appeal is hard.  It is hard because the good old days aren't coming back, but that isn't a very attractive message.  Globalization, with or without trade agreements and tariffs, is here to stay and policies and programs need to be developed to deal with this reality.

Trump isn't the first to take advantage of fear to rise to power, to blame a race or religion for national hardships, to foment violence against scapegoats. If you can't step out of your own circumstances to see patterns forming, you are condemned to repeat history.

Also, blaming outside agitators sounds like George Wallace. But maybe you weren't around for those days in the US.

tjohn said:

BCC said:

It is so easy to smear an entire group by calling them racists rather than find the real reasons why, for example, the White working class is moving to Trump. 

It's quite a problem, actually.  I can understand the appeal of a promise to bring back the good old days, but countering this appeal is hard.  It is hard because the good old days aren't coming back, but that isn't a very attractive message.  Globalization, with or without trade agreements and tariffs, is here to stay and policies and programs need to be developed to deal with this reality.

All very true, but Trump is promising to do just that and what has the 'establishment' given them? That's why it's hard.

Trump is promising??? Hah! He can't control his mouth, his rallies, his mob. How can he organize a society? The ability to do that is part of leadership. He's totally unprepared for that.

tjohn said:

BCC said:

It is so easy to smear an entire group by calling them racists rather than find the real reasons why, for example, the White working class is moving to Trump. 

It's quite a problem, actually.  I can understand the appeal of a promise to bring back the good old days, but countering this appeal is hard.  It is hard because the good old days aren't coming back, but that isn't a very attractive message.  Globalization, with or without trade agreements and tariffs, is here to stay and policies and programs need to be developed to deal with this reality.

Yes, countering this fear is hard especially when a huge number of moneyed interests and people in power are feeding (and profiting from) that fear.   Fearful voters have been convinced that Obama and liberal policy is the cause of all off their suffering.  Of  course if voters informed themselves of what was actually happening, they would be immune to this tactic.  Your posts here appear to excuse their ignorance, and I find this especially troubling given that this ignorance is going a long way to elevate Trump to the Presidency.  

springgreen2 said:

Trump is promising??? Hah! He can't control his mouth, his rallies, his mob. How can he organize a society? The ability to do that is part of leadership. He's totally unprepared for that.

Can't control? He is a politician whose aim is to get votes. He is getting them and today people are worried he is unstoppable. The fact that you and I despise what he is doing doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing.

As a famous politician once said, don't underestimate him..

Red_Barchetta said:

tjohn said:

BCC said:

It is so easy to smear an entire group by calling them racists rather than find the real reasons why, for example, the White working class is moving to Trump. 

It's quite a problem, actually.  I can understand the appeal of a promise to bring back the good old days, but countering this appeal is hard.  It is hard because the good old days aren't coming back, but that isn't a very attractive message.  Globalization, with or without trade agreements and tariffs, is here to stay and policies and programs need to be developed to deal with this reality.

Yes, countering this fear is hard especially when a huge number of moneyed interests and people in power are feeding (and profiting from) that fear.   Fearful voters have been convinced that Obama and liberal policy is the cause of all off their suffering.  Of  course if voters informed themselves of what was actually happening, they would be immune to this tactic.  Your posts here appear to excuse their ignorance, and I find this especially troubling given that this ignorance is going a long way to elevate Trump to the Presidency.  

Explaining what you call ignorance doesn't mean excusing it.

i

BCC said:

springgreen2 said:

Trump is promising??? Hah! He can't control his mouth, his rallies, his mob. How can he organize a society? The ability to do that is part of leadership. He's totally unprepared for that.

Can't control? He is a politician whose aim is to get votes. He is getting them and today people are worried he is unstoppable. The fact that you and I despise what he is doing doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing.

As a famous politician once said, don't underestimate him..

I believe he knows he is instigating, but he gets the ball of chaos rolling , fans flames, and is not interested in stopping anything the crowd will do. When he is begged, he calls a halt, and in so doing expects to be called a hero.

Red_Barchetta said:

Yes, countering this fear is hard especially when a huge number of moneyed interests and people in power are feeding (and profiting from) that fear.   Fearful voters have been convinced that Obama and liberal policy is the cause of all off their suffering.  Of  course if voters informed themselves of what was actually happening, they would be immune to this tactic.  Your posts here appear to excuse their ignorance, and I find this especially troubling given that this ignorance is going a long way to elevate Trump to the Presidency.  

That is not the intent.  I am trying to point out that calling Trump supporters a bunch of ignorant racists is not going to solve the Trump problem.

"

Despite Mr. Trump’s racially loaded message on the campaign trail, and evidence that some individual Trump voters are driven by racial hostility, this analysis didn’t show a particularly powerful relationship between the racial breakdown of a county and its likelihood of voting for Trump. There are Trump-supporting counties where very high proportions of the population are African-American and others where it was very low, for example.
One of the strongest predictors of Trump support is the proportion of the population that is native-born. Relatively few people in the places where Trump is strong are immigrants — and, as their answers on their ancestry reveal, they very much wear Americanness on their sleeve."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/upshot/the-geography-of-trumpism.html?_r=0

I think it's counter-productive to just write off Trump voters as racist, or ignorant, or thuggish. Some are, sure. And I know there are some truly vile racist people out there, and I have little doubt that many of them really like some of what Trump has been saying. 

The thing is, though, most people don't fit into that category. I'm not personally all that worried about people illegally crossing the southern border -- not very concerned that they're secretly terrorists or that they're coming to "take our jobs" or have "anchor babies" or whatever. But I'm also doing fairly well in an area that isn't negatively impacted by immigration. I don't think that most (or even many) of the people who DO worry about immigration are racists. I think they feel the way they do for a variety of reasons, many of which have to do with living in less secure financial circumstances, or where immigration is impacting communities differently. (And I'm just grabbing immigration as one of very many topics like this.) 

You don't get to 47% in head-to-head matchups by only appealing to vile racists; these Trump supporters are our fellow Americans, not lesser species that we can look down on and just write off. They're voters looking for a candidate who's speaking to their issues. 

Mr. Kenboy,

Being poor isn't an excuse for being a bigot. Being poor is not a requirement for being a bigot. Lots of rich people are terrible bigots. There are easily 47% of Republicans who are bigots. All you have to do to be a bigot is to make generalizations about individuals based on the groups they belong to, either by birth or by other forms of identification.

springgreen, when you refer to trump supporters as thugs, you, too are making generalizations. 

They are behaving like thugs. Are you watching any of this? You are afraid of a "commie scare," but not of fascism?