Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news worldwide
tjohn said:
mtierney said:
Hungry children as pawns in politics….
You mean because some Catholic schools want to treat LGBTQ children as second class people, school lunch aid is threatened. At times like this, you might ask yourself how would Jesus treat LGBTQ kids? Differently from the hateful way they are treated by organized religion, I would guess.
I find that comments written only as jabs at a fellow poster are tiring in the extreme. Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church worldwide are leaders in taking care of those in nee across the globe.
But you must have been aware of the facts before wondering how to sound dismissive of me and “organized religion” (your words) in one post!
How effective are disorganized religions?
mtierney said:
tjohn said:
mtierney said:
Hungry children as pawns in politics….
You mean because some Catholic schools want to treat LGBTQ children as second class people, school lunch aid is threatened. At times like this, you might ask yourself how would Jesus treat LGBTQ kids? Differently from the hateful way they are treated by organized religion, I would guess.
I find that comments written only as jabs at a fellow poster are tiring in the extreme. Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church worldwide are leaders in taking care of those in nee across the globe.
But you must have been aware of the facts before wondering how to sound dismissive of me and “organized religion” (your words) in one post!
How effective are disorganized religions?
Well then, if Catholic schools are discriminating against LGBTQ children, there shouldn't be a problem. I guess the federal government must be confused.
I don't question that the Catholic Church does a lot to help people. But the Church has also done a lot of awful things and has covered up a lot of awful behavior. The good doesn't justify the bad.
tjohn said:
I don't question that the Catholic Church does a lot to help people. But the Church has also done a lot of awful things and has covered up a lot of awful behavior. The good doesn't justify the bad.
So, all is lost? Redemption is a pipe dream? Better to be all bad, rather than a work in progress? Your philosophy means no good can come of any efforts to change course and fight evil?
So Russia is evil; Ukraine is good. Now what?
Perhaps, in our world, we can pray that the good can vanquish evil. We will all die any way.
mtierney said:
tjohn said:
I don't question that the Catholic Church does a lot to help people. But the Church has also done a lot of awful things and has covered up a lot of awful behavior. The good doesn't justify the bad.
So, all is lost? Redemption is a pipe dream? Better to be all bad, rather than a work in progress? Your philosophy means no good can come of any efforts to change course and fight evil?
So Russia is evil; Ukraine is good. Now what?
Perhaps, in our world, we can pray that the good can vanquish evil. We will all die any way.
the desire is for the Church to not discriminate against LGBTQ people
mtierney said:
So, all is lost? Redemption is a pipe dream? Better to be all bad, rather than a work in progress? Your philosophy means no good can come of any efforts to change course and fight evil?
So Russia is evil; Ukraine is good. Now what?
Perhaps, in our world, we can pray that the good can vanquish evil. We will all die any way.
Francis is a liberal…. A breath of fresh air blowing through the gilded palace filled with artifacts…
tjohn said:
the desire is for the Church to not discriminate against LGBTQ people
I don’t believe the driving force of “desire” is in play in the issue we are discussing here.
Threats of harmful/hurtful action against children and their parents if blind obedience is required to receive tax payer sponsored school lunches might hint at setting up a bribe.
No way to win friends and influence people in my view.
mtierney said:
I find that comments written only as jabs at a fellow poster are tiring in the extreme. Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church worldwide are leaders in taking care of those in nee across the globe.
But you must have been aware of the facts before wondering how to sound dismissive of me and “organized religion” (your words) in one post!
How effective are disorganized religions?
If Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church worldwide are leaders in taking care of those in need across the globe, why in one of the the world's richest countries are they relying on taxpayer funds to feed kids who can't afford to buy the lunch the Catholic Church provides? If a Catholic School is run as a non-profit enterprise, shouldn't every kid in a Catholic School eat for free?
"Threats of harmful/hurtful action against children and their parents if blind obedience is required"
But from another pov, harmful/hurtful action is not just threatened but actually in play, on the part of the church and its schools, against those children and parents who can't find their way to blind obedience with regard to the form of sexuality that they believe is their gift from g-d (if they are believers).
I’m not posting this as an attack on Church or believers. However, on this thread for a very long time we were following the progress of several cases where several clergy and other Church officers had abused their positions to take advantage of parishioners/school children etc.
This week’s court ruling in an Australian case regarding Cardinal Pell is quite significant for affected families even after many years have passed:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-26/families-clergy-abuse-victims-legal-precedent-litigation/101374948
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-24/catholic-church-george-pell-court-case-can-continue/101366566
The Pope's on a roll -
Pope Francis with his College of Cardinals.
— Christopher White (@cwwhiteNCR) August 27, 2022
Today marks the 8th time he has created new cardinals. As of today, he will have named 62% of the men who will one day elect his successor. pic.twitter.com/yt1BGuLvSD
joanne said:
I’m not posting this as an attack on Church or believers. However, on this thread for a very long time we were following the progress of several cases where several clergy and other Church officers had abused their positions to take advantage of parishioners/school children etc.
This week’s court ruling in an Australian case regarding Cardinal Pell is quite significant for affected families even after many years have passed:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-26/families-clergy-abuse-victims-legal-precedent-litigation/101374948https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-24/catholic-church-george-pell-court-case-can-continue/101366566
The parent's lawsuit is reported in the Catholic press, as well.
When religion and politics cross paths…
From the link….
“First, Biden was the unifier-in-chief. Then he was the ice cream-loving cool guy in aviator shades who’s “back,” baby. Now he’s Jesus? Hold the phone.
“Before even cracking the Scriptural can of worms, there’s a whole host of other issues with so-called loan forgiveness that shouldn’t need to be repeated but apparently do. For instance, the Constitution doesn’t give the president authority to wipe out debts. And there’s the whole business of Biden simply empowering universities to raise tuition costs even higher, inevitably kicking off this whole wretched cycle again.
“But the biblical issues stemming from equating the leader of the free world with the Creator of the universe are even more problematic. Not only do they represent bad-faith attempts to trip up Christians in manufactured hypocrisy (or perhaps prompt them to reject their faith in favor of Marxism), but they’re also blatant rejections of Scripture wrapped in a veneer of moralism, with no regard for those who get harmed in the process.”
Unintended comedy from the link:
mtierney said:
"Not only do they represent bad-faith attempts to trip up Christians in manufactured hypocrisy (or perhaps prompt them to reject their faith in favor of Marxism), but they’re also blatant rejections of Scripture wrapped in a veneer of moralism, with no regard for those who get harmed in the process.”
[Edited to add picture}
mtierney said:
When religion and politics cross paths…
From the link….
“First, Biden was the unifier-in-chief. Then he was the ice cream-loving cool guy in aviator shades who’s “back,” baby. Now he’s Jesus? Hold the phone.
“Before even cracking the Scriptural can of worms, there’s a whole host of other issues with so-called loan forgiveness that shouldn’t need to be repeated but apparently do. For instance, the Constitution doesn’t give the president authority to wipe out debts. And there’s the whole business of Biden simply empowering universities to raise tuition costs even higher, inevitably kicking off this whole wretched cycle again.
“But the biblical issues stemming from equating the leader of the free world with the Creator of the universe are even more problematic. Not only do they represent bad-faith attempts to trip up Christians in manufactured hypocrisy (or perhaps prompt them to reject their faith in favor of Marxism), but they’re also blatant rejections of Scripture wrapped in a veneer of moralism, with no regard for those who get harmed in the process.”
So now anyone espousing the views of Jesus is actually claiming to be Jesus?
Not sure I've ever heard of anything so stupid.
Except for the part about the Constitution. That's pretty damn stupid too.
Of course, it's thefederalist, so what can you expect other than stupidity?
drummerboy said:
So now anyone espousing the views of Jesus is actually claiming to be Jesus?
Not sure I've ever heard of anything so stupid.
Except for the part about the Constitution. That's pretty damn stupid too.
Of course, it's thefederalist, so what can you expect other than stupidity?
We shouted out "Who funds the Federalist?" But after all it was you and me
https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/loans/the-federalist-llc-6858787210
"One may argue, as people did in those days, that remitting debts is bad for the credit industry. But its social benefits are significant. Not only does it reduce the radical inequalities between the poorest and wealthiest citizens; it also fosters a culture of forgiveness and love. Under such conditions, wealthier citizens no longer look to their neighbors as a source of their own potentially enhanced wealth, but rather as human beings deserving of love and forgiveness. Similarly, the poor no longer view the wealthy as oppressors, but rather as generous and loving fellow citizens.
"Jesus’ insistence on adherence to the Mosaic laws is often forgotten; more likely, it is never really learned. Yet it may well prove to be especially pertinent for our political moment. Where many Christian conservatives have stressed the threat of moral hazard, they would do well to give equal, if not greater, consideration to the lessons stressed by Jesus."
The Biblical case for forgiving student loan debt | America Magazine
ridski said:
We shouted out "Who funds the Federalist?" But after all it was you and me
https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/loans/the-federalist-llc-6858787210
From the link -
THE FEDERALIST, LLC
Loan Amount $200,000
Amount Forgiven $201,995 Includes any accrued interest
From the "There's A Parable For That" Department -
Moved with compassion the master of that servant
let him go and forgave him the loan.
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants
who owed him a much smaller amount.
He seized him and started to choke him, demanding,
‘Pay back what you owe.’
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him,
‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
But he refused.
Instead, he had him put in prison
until he paid back the debt.
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened,
they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master
and reported the whole affair.
His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant!
I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant,
as I had pity on you?’
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers
until he should pay back the whole debt.
Matthew 18:27-34
nohero said:
From the "There's A Parable For That" Department -
Moved with compassion the master of that servant
let him go and forgave him the loan.
When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants
who owed him a much smaller amount.
He seized him and started to choke him, demanding,
‘Pay back what you owe.’
Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him,
‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
But he refused.
Instead, he had him put in prison
until he paid back the debt.
Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened,
they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master
and reported the whole affair.
His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant!
I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant,
as I had pity on you?’
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers
until he should pay back the whole debt.Matthew 18:27-34
I'm afraid this has broken my little Monday morning brain.
How did the master not know second servant was in prison? Was he still paying second servant even though he didn't show up to work? I assume first servant would assume second servant would get paid while in prison because first servant is expecting second servant to pay the debt while not working. Does the master continue to pay first servant while he is being tortured? How else can first servant pay his debt?
ridski said:
I'm afraid this has broken my little Monday morning brain.
How did the master not know second servant was in prison? Was he still paying second servant even though he didn't show up to work? I assume first servant would assume second servant would get paid while in prison because first servant is expecting second servant to pay the debt while not working. Does the master continue to pay first servant while he is being tortured? How else can first servant pay his debt?
Never overthink a parable that's based on first century money management in Palestine.
nohero said:
ridski said:
I'm afraid this has broken my little Monday morning brain.
How did the master not know second servant was in prison? Was he still paying second servant even though he didn't show up to work? I assume first servant would assume second servant would get paid while in prison because first servant is expecting second servant to pay the debt while not working. Does the master continue to pay first servant while he is being tortured? How else can first servant pay his debt?
Never overthink a parable that's based on first century money management in Palestine.
I just read the whole thing. First servant owed 10 thousand talents. According to Matthew 20:2, the going rate was a denarii a day. So doing a little math, given that 1 talent is 6000 denarii, factoring in some days off, he would need to work roughly 16 years at no pay at all to pay off 1/10000th of his debt. One talent was worth 20 years of wages. The master had loaned him 164,271 years worth of wages! WTF was first servant buying that needed 10,000 talents, The Moon?
ridski said:
I just read the whole thing. First servant owed 10 thousand talents. According to Matthew 20:2, the going rate was a denarii a day. So doing a little math, given that 1 talent is 6000 denarii, factoring in some days off, he would need to work roughly 16 years at no pay at all to pay off 1/10000th of his debt. One talent was worth 20 years of wages. The master had loaned him 164,271 years worth of wages! WTF was first servant buying that needed 10,000 talents, The Moon?
David Graeber makes the same observation (Debt: The First 5,000 Years)
"The number is a joke, too; it simply stands for 'a sum no human being could ever conceivably repay.' Faced with infinite, existential debt, the servant can only tell obvious lies: 'A hundred billion? Sure, I'm good for it! Just give me a little more time.' The, suddenly, apparently just as arbitrarily the Lord forgives him. Yet it turns out the amnesty has a condition he is not aware of. It is incumbent on his being willing to act in an analogous way to other humans--in this particular case, another servant who owes him (to translate again into contemporary terms), maybe a thousand bucks. Failing the test, the human is cast into hell for all eternity, or 'until he should pay back all he owed,' which in this case comes down to the same thing."
"In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus uses debt as a metaphor for sin—something that David Graber argues was a common practice in the ancient world. The theologian David Bentley Hart argues that the second part of the Lord’s Prayer would have been understood as directly connected to the debt courts and debt bondage. Here is his translation: 'grant us relief from our debts, to the very degree that we grant relief to those who are indebted to us. And do not bring us to court for trial, but rather rescue us from the wicked man.' For Hart, this is a prayer for the poor. He ties the prayers to 'how often Jesus speaks of trials, of officers dragging the insolvent to jail, of men bound by or imprisoned for undischarged debts, of unmerciful creditors, of suits brought before judges to secure a coat or cloak, of the unfortunate legally despoiled by the fortunate.' "
From: Is Student Loan Forgiveness Compatible with the Bible's Teaching on Debt?
(Spoiler alert - the answer is "Yes")
Wait - I thought from the traditional Christian perspective, usury is a sin. After all, wasn’t that the justification for relegating moneylending to one of the few occupations that Jewish people could pursue from Roman times until quite recently? And therefore one the deep-seated justifications for widespread anti-Semitism?? So, shouldn’t forgiveness of debt be a core Christian value?? And shouldn’t shouldn’t any debt raised be interest-free? (One should not profit from such sinful things, instead just anonymously help out needy neighbours)
ridski says: "I'm afraid this has broken my little Monday morning brain.
"How did the master not know second servant was in prison? Was he still paying second servant even though he didn't show up to work? I assume first servant would assume second servant would get paid while in prison because first servant is expecting second servant to pay the debt while not working. Does the master continue to pay first servant while he is being tortured? How else can first servant pay his debt?"
Debtors' prison never really made sense at any time, did it? Unless maybe if the debtor had property that his agents could sell off to get him out. No sense at all, imo.
Plus there’s the whole Jesus overturning the moneylenders’ tables incident…. Somehow, I suspect he’d approve of free tertiary education.
mjc said:
ridski says: "I'm afraid this has broken my little Monday morning brain.
"How did the master not know second servant was in prison? Was he still paying second servant even though he didn't show up to work? I assume first servant would assume second servant would get paid while in prison because first servant is expecting second servant to pay the debt while not working. Does the master continue to pay first servant while he is being tortured? How else can first servant pay his debt?"
Debtors' prison never really made sense at any time, did it? Unless maybe if the debtor had property that his agents could sell off to get him out. No sense at all, imo.
joanne said:
Wait - I thought from the traditional Christian perspective, usury is a sin. After all, wasn’t that the justification for relegating moneylending to one of the few occupations that Jewish people could pursue from Roman times until quite recently? And therefore one the deep-seated justifications for widespread anti-Semitism?? So, shouldn’t forgiveness of debt be a core Christian value?? And shouldn’t shouldn’t any debt raised be interest-free? (One should not profit from such sinful things, instead just anonymously help out needy neighbours)
joanne, i think you may have the history and theology pretty straight, but maybe the wrong planet, or species?
Mjc, I thought the European kings (certainly the English throne) turned to Jewish moneylenders to bankroll the Crusades because they could easily get the Church to back their later Royal arguments that since surly was sinful they didn’t have to pay back the loans. And ‘anyway, now all filthy Jews are banished from the kingdom’…hence all the creepy portrayals of Shylock, continental pogroms etc.
Clever orators linked stained glass depictions of the Temple moneylenders incident and the Plagues with local cruel tax collectors (because of the sinful Jewish loans to Crusaders), and tried to drive local Jews away. So for centuries Jews were linked to the Devil for denying the Messiah, for bringing plagues, indulging in sins like moneylending (and drinking babies’ blood) and trying to bring down rulers. All based on ‘Bible teachings’.
Wikipedia says in the article on Usury that St Thomas Aquinas, in the 13th century, pointed out that it’s unjust to change a fee (interest, admin) for lending money.
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you're right. It's horrible that the Church won't agree not to discriminate against LGBTQ people, even if it means kids go hungry. For once you and I agree on something.
I'm glad you've finally come out against the Church's bigotry. Good for you.