Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news & Bible verses

I think I became a defacto atheist, altho I had never heard the term, when I was about 12.  I was raised Catholic in a family that included a former Catholic, a former Lutheran, and a newly devout Jehovah's Witness.  My best friends really were Jewish.  At the tender age of 11 or so, as I had nuns drilling me on the Baltimore Catechism so that I might be appropriately prepared for the Sacrament of Confirmation, I realized that every single religious group claimed that they had the only sure and certain way to heaven, and that all others were doomed. It occurred to me that if everyone claimed that everyone else was wrong or evil or heathens, religion was a made-up notion that simply created yet another us vs. them dynamic. I still remember a friend at Confirmation Class who threw up (probably was just sick) during one of our practice sessions and was resoundingly berated by a nun and threatened with a beating! I knew that, historically, millions of children, women and men had been burned at the stake or otherwise annihilated in the name of religion.  I was beginning to discover a "love and justice" form of faith through a local Presbyterian congregation and soon understood that the real value in that setting for me was the notion of community.  Of people acting together to help one another as well as the "outsiders."   In that setting I was encouraged to pursue a life in the ministry of Christ but I knew that I considered Jesus "merely" as a wonderful teacher, an upender of social norms, a champion of the oppressed and even a supporter of women!   I was not a true believer (despite having gone to and been "saved" at a Billy Graham Crusade at MSG!) because the deification aspect meant nothing to me.  Would Christ really want us to murder or at least look down on all the starving "heathen" babies in India I wondered?  Didn't make sense to me.  Still doesn't.  

However, years later, one of my social work supervisors, a very devout Jewish woman, told me in a work review that I was the most ethical person she'd ever met.  She was well aware of my atheism!  At the time I had no serious religious affiliation so it was really an eye opener and a compliment.  After 9/11 my wife and I struggled with needing to find an ethical community in which our humanistic "love and justice" values might be shared and more easily transmitted to our then 5 year old daughter.  We eventually found our way to Unitarian Universalism which has been, pardon the term, a "godsend" to us.  The kid is now 22, a wonderfully ethical person who works in healthcare with folks at the edge of death, and we are still members of Beacon UU in Summit.  I was there this morning, feeling a lot of gratitude for the community of "believers and non-believers" that have supported the spiritual growth of my family for more than a dozen years.  (Thanks Barbara Heisler!)

Long-winded way of saying that there are many paths to spiritual enlightenment, constructive community and social justice.  But all of these require the courage to face the darkness each of us is capable of, accepting responsibility for our own human shortcomings, and working to help not only ourselves but our fellow sojourners in this mortal life.  I really don't care about heaven or hell.  My concern is how my words and actions impact the here and now of those people and creatures with whom I am blessed to share this brief life.  

Atheism neither defines nor limits me.  It's not about morality or immorality.  It's simply another way of understanding the world and our place in it.



nakaille, I understand perfectly. My son understands me as well. There is no conflict. I care about heaven but don't believe in hell. My son lives in this world without concern for either and I very much enjoy his life's view. The thing that is very different for me is that I get these constant reminders of how present God is in my life. I feel His graces often. In my times of need, I feel His presence as He shows up.  My son  and I both appreciate when love shows up. I just happened to be taught, God is Love and happened to believe it. Love is love after all is said and done. A rose by any other name is still a rose to me. I too believe in love.


Reading this from our pastor was so encouraging that the Church will survive!


Word is the French are spinning up their own investigation. This thing is a iceberg and we have only seen a small part of the tip.


As a Non-Christian I do not usually check out this thread, but I found that article fascinating. 

One paragraph stood stood out.

 However, Bartholomew’s full title, laden with history, is His All-Holiness, Bartholomew, Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch. Ecumenical means “universal,” and in that role he is considered “first among equals,” with the right to create new, full-fledged branches of the church.

I have been to that Town. They do realize, do they not that it is a Country ruled by a political party which was originally aligned with "The Muslim Brotherhood" ?


See, the trouble with that article is that it presumes non-Orthodox/non-Christians will take their word that all Eastern Orthodox Christians are of the Russian-style church. It doesn’t talk about the middle-eastern Christians who fall into the Eastern (non Catholic) tradition, nor the Greek Orthodox, let alone the big impact of what the political situation in the Macedonias will on the Church there. Most non-Eastern Christians couldn’t tell or care if an Egyptian Christian needed special services, or a Syrian, or northern Bulgarian or southern Macedonian....any priest with heavy beard and dark cassock will do (umm, no).

There’s a lot more going on in the Church of James’ traditions than the rest of the world realises, and has been for many centuries. 


To be fair we Jews have our own divisions. (What else is new?)

The Chief Rabbi of Russia (Hebrew: הרב הראשי לרוסיה) is the leader of the Jewish communities in Russia since 1990. Currently there are two Chief Rabbis of Russia: Rabbi Berel Lazar of Chabad and Adolf Shayevich from the Congress of the Jewish Religious Organizations and Associations in Russia (KEROOR). The largest network of Jewish organizations is the Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia.

Shayevich was appointed in 1989. In 2000, Rabbi Lazar was appointed chief rabbi of Russia by the election of the Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia, and since then he has been working in this role. However, not all Jewish communities in Russia recognize him as chief rabbi, ith KEROOR, and other organizations continue to see Rabbi Shayevich as chief rabbi of Russia in his position as chief rabbi of the Congress of Jewish Religious Organizations and Associations in Russia.



yeah, but then that’s because we don’t expect anyone to speak for all of us even with Gd. (Because Moshiach hasn’t come yet) cheese So someone can be appointed, or be voted in, or whatever... we’ll still make our own decisions individually as to whether to pay attention. 

In a way our Eastern Christian cousins are much the same - their own Patriarch is indeed an equal voice in the family of James’ Church. It’s not the vast political empire that Catholic Church is, it’s more of a family network like our kinship networks. 


mtierney said:
Reading this from our pastor was so encouraging that the Church will survive!

The Catholic Church will survive but the comprehensive failure of the Church to perform the very fundamental job if protecting the weak will leave the Church permanently diminished.  So, if I am in a terrible accident and lose a leg, I will survive, but I will never be the same.  So it is with the Catholic Church.


mtierney said:


Trying to keep a conversation going when the topic is Christianity ain’t easy!
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/opinion/sunday/talk-god-sprituality-christian.html?rref=collection%2Fissuecollection%2Ftodays-new-york-times

 So, christianists need to start being Christians.  Good counsel, that.


mtierney said:
A voice in the wilderness of 2018...
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-to-hate-is-to-kill-in-the-heart-25134

 Quick quiz: Name the most prominent American political figure who comes to mind when you read this excerpt.

Jesus also says that, by the same logic, insult and contempt are sins too, [Pope Francis] added, pointing out how often people are accustomed to insulting others, even commenting sometimes that so-and-so “is dead to me.”  

As DJT is “the most prominent American political figure,” the answer has to be our President. However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.


mtierney said:
As DJT is “the most prominent American political figure,” the answer has to be our President. However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.

There was a time when a leader was supposed to display leadership attributes and work to bridge differences, not inflame them.  Trump, I cannot understand.  If he were a platoon leader, his own men would shoot him.


mtierney said:
 However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.

 If hating rapists is an infection then that is a virus that you desperately need to catch. Your consistent embrace of conservative sexual predators is a dark stain on your honor and, I would imagine, your soul.


tjohn said:


 Trump, I cannot understand.  If he were a platoon leader, his own men would shoot him.

 A point that no doubt crosses our Defense Secretary's mind from time to time.


Klinker said:


mtierney said:
 However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.
 If hating rapists is an infection then that is a virus that you desperately need to catch. Your consistent embrace of conservative sexual predators is a dark stain on your honor and, I would imagine, your soul.

Would it be better for the soul if liberal sexual predators were embraced?


nohero said:


mtierney said:
A voice in the wilderness of 2018...
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-to-hate-is-to-kill-in-the-heart-25134
 Quick quiz: Name the most prominent American political figure who comes to mind when you read this excerpt.


Jesus also says that, by the same logic, insult and contempt are sins too, [Pope Francis] added, pointing out how often people are accustomed to insulting others, even commenting sometimes that so-and-so “is dead to me.”  

 

mtierney said:
As DJT is “the most prominent American political figure,” the answer has to be our President. However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.

 I quoted both posts because I didn't just ask for "the most prominent political figure who comes to mind."

I asked for the most prominent one "who comes to mind" when you read an exhortation that "insult and contempt are sins too."  The deflecting away to blame unidentified others is just making excuses for Trump.  


lord_pabulum said:


Klinker said:

mtierney said:
 However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.
 If hating rapists is an infection then that is a virus that you desperately need to catch. Your consistent embrace of conservative sexual predators is a dark stain on your honor and, I would imagine, your soul.
Would it be better for the soul if liberal sexual predators were embraced?

 Jesus!  Can’t we all agree that we shouldn’t be embracing sexual predators?  What the hell is wrong with you????


I think we really are living in the end times. 


GoSlugs said:


lord_pabulum said:

Klinker said:

mtierney said:
 However, the recent Supreme Court nomination debacle proved dramatically that there is an infection of hatred throughout Washington, not in just one political figure. This is politics today.
 If hating rapists is an infection then that is a virus that you desperately need to catch. Your consistent embrace of conservative sexual predators is a dark stain on your honor and, I would imagine, your soul.
Would it be better for the soul if liberal sexual predators were embraced?
 Jesus!  Can’t we all agree that we shouldn’t be embracing sexual predators?  What the hell is wrong with you????


I think we really are living in the end times. 

That's my point.  Klinker feels it is necessary to distinguish between a sexual predator's political predilections.  


lord_pabulum said:

That's my point.  Klinker feels it is necessary to distinguish between a sexual predator's political predilections.  

 As usual, you have it backwards.  I condemn sexual predators of all stripes.  It is mtierney who has a "get out of jail free card" for any rapist that either wears a collar or carries a NRA membership card. I find this to be a common trait amongst Republicans of all stripes. 

But then again, if they were good people they wouldn't still be Republicans after 2 years of Trump.



Klinker said:


lord_pabulum said:

That's my point.  Klinker feels it is necessary to distinguish between a sexual predator's political predilections.  
 As usual, you have it backwards.  I condemn sexual predators of all stripes.  It is mtierney who has a "get out of jail free card" for any rapist that either wears a collar or carries a NRA membership card. I find this to be a common trait amongst Republicans of all stripes. 
But then again, if they were good people they wouldn't still be Republicans after 2 years of Trump.


Are you including alleged or convicted rapists or both?  I disagree mtierney thinks that any republican rapist has a get out of jail free card based on what she has written.  Your logic suggests any Democrat who votes for Menendez condones corruption, bribery and fraud


lord_pabulum said:


Klinker said:

lord_pabulum said:

That's my point.  Klinker feels it is necessary to distinguish between a sexual predator's political predilections.  
 As usual, you have it backwards.  I condemn sexual predators of all stripes.  It is mtierney who has a "get out of jail free card" for any rapist that either wears a collar or carries a NRA membership card. I find this to be a common trait amongst Republicans of all stripes. 
But then again, if they were good people they wouldn't still be Republicans after 2 years of Trump.
Are you including alleged or convicted rapists or both?  I disagree mtierney thinks that any republican rapist has a get out of jail free card based on what she has written.  Your logic suggests any Democrat who votes for Menendez condones corruption, bribery and fraud

 As opposed to giving President Grade Em in the Pussy and the Rape-ublican Party one more vote in the Senate?

I mean, we could talk about the lesser of two evils but mtierney was defending Catholic pedophiles long before the GOP became the party of sexual assault.

Either way, I don't know how you live with yourself. Do what you will but, when its all over, please don't try to tell us that you were just a good German and you didn't know what was happening. 


I suspect that in about 10 years we will be hearing a great deal about Moral Injury.


mtierney said:
An answer for tjohn to a question raised on another thread....
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/obituaries/msgr-thomas-p-leonard-dead.html?rref=collection%2Fissuecollection%2Ftodays-new-york-times

 Yes, a sad reminder of what the church could have been if it didn't choose to shelter predator priests.  


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