Climate change. Face it. We're doomed.

I just came across a story about wildfires in the Arctic, which is apparently a new thing, and got to thinking about what our chances are for preventing climate disaster.

The chances are zero, I think.

The fact is that the average American has conniption fits if they can't even have disposable plastic shopping bags. Combatting climate change will require a lot more significant lifestyle changes than that ( though not necessarily for the worse).

Things like cutting back back meat production by 75% and outlawing other forms of destructive agriculture. Just as a start.

Fat chance that.  Not gonna happen.

Face it. We're fat and lazy and doomed. Get used to the heat.



My mother says we are already past the point of no return.  When I saw her on Mother's Day and I tried to talk to her about the Green New Deal, she said that she thinks it is too late and we are all doomed.  She kind of smiled because she's 88 and it makes her happy to see that others will be miserable after she is gone.  

She also thinks Kamala Harris can beat Trump, but she gets all her political news from MSNBC so I don't take her very seriously there.  When it comes to science she digs deep and reads a lot and actually knows how to fly a spaceship and lots of scientific terms I don't understand.  So there is a chance she actually knows enough to be right about the end of the world as we know it. So I found that kind of unnerving. Ruined breakfast. 

I'd be glad to give up plastic and become a vegan to save the world, by the way.  


Nan, I agree with your mom one-hundred percent.  I believe we are experiencing a warming chain reaction with absolutely nothing at our disposal to stop it as it blows through previous records. Where does all of that melting ice cap water go?  (I know the answer, I just can't deal with it while sober.)  Our infrastructure cannot handle air conditioning running at full bore 24/7, while it's heating up the atmosphere even more.  I thought of that in the aftermath of NYC's recent power failures.  People need to start thinking in Plan B terms, for example:  taking the stairs -- if possible -- to circumvent getting stuck in building elevators during power failures.  You get the picture.  So I find myself (mostly) avoiding the news.  I took a peek today and instantly regretted it.  At least the liquor stores haven't run out yet:


Europe's Record Breaking Heatwave Threatens Major Greenland Ice Sheet

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-weather-greenland/europes-record-heatwave-threatens-greenland-ice-sheet-idUSKCN1UL15C


Greenland:  Sled Dogs Run through Melting Sea Ice

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/18/greenland-ice-melt-sled-dogs-walking-water-sea-ice-melts/1487879001/


European Heatwave:  Paris Records Hottest Temperature in History

https://www.businessinsider.com/paris-hottest-temperature-in-history-europe-heatwave-2019-7



nan said:
My mother says we are already past the point of no return.  When I saw her on Mother's Day and I tried to talk to her about the Green New Deal, she said that she thinks it is too late and we are all doomed.  She kind of smiled because she's 88 and it makes her happy to see that others will be miserable after she is gone.  
She also thinks Kamala Harris can beat Trump, but she gets all her political news from MSNBC so I don't take her very seriously there.  When it comes to science she digs deep and reads a lot and actually knows how to fly a spaceship and lots of scientific terms I don't understand.  So there is a chance she actually knows enough to be right about the end of the world as we know it. So I found that kind of unnerving. Ruined breakfast. 
I'd be glad to give up plastic and become a vegan to save the world, by the way.  

 I like your mom already. As for the pessimism, she sounds a bit like my Dad was. I don't believe we are doomed but as I posted a link to the GNC on our candidates thread, I'm reading it again, carefully.

Yes we can slow things down, maybe not reverse it but maybe stop it in its tracks.


I showed this to my students several years ago. Worth watching.



Climate change is going to dictate human actions for the next couple of hundred years, although we have some options as to how we face the problem.  Maybe humanity will all come together and row in more or less the same direction.  Maybe we will have a dystopian future as depicted in shows The Walking Dead or The 100 where humans could come together to deal with the challenges but, instead, continue to expend all of their energy fighting each other.


tjohn said:
Climate change is going to dictate human actions for the next couple of hundred years, although we have some options as to how we face the problem.  Maybe humanity will all come together and row in more or less the same direction.  Maybe we will have a dystopian future as depicted in shows The Walking Dead or The 100 where humans could come together to deal with the challenges but, instead, continue to expend all of their energy fighting each other.

 I think its going to be a meet in the middle for awhile. Just like recycling. Living in the city meant going to a recycling center when it first became an option. Now here in SO we get pick ups twice a month. Judging by my street we all recycle. Some will be resistant until their AC doesn't work but there are enough people who will be motivated.

The catch is that while its appealing to pass a bill and pass it on to the government, we all have to make those personal changes which actually make you feel empowered.

I did a check online with PSE& G to get tips on saving energy, and rigged up some ridiculous clothes line from my iron arbor to a weighted aluminum ladder. Pretty funny but I hung my wash outside. I'm playing a little game seeing how much water gas and electric I can save. Almost looking forward to my utility bills.

Of course slowly switching to a plant based diet saves the planet and screws the pharma companies by limiting the sale of their drugs.

I'm going to start a thread with some vegan recipes. I'm no chef but I've been at this for most of my life so, I might know of a few products or cookbooks that get the ball rolling. Hopefully someone will add to the food portion because honesty I'm not a huge fan of spending too much time in the kitchen.


Morganna said:


tjohn said:
Climate change is going to dictate human actions for the next couple of hundred years, although we have some options as to how we face the problem.  Maybe humanity will all come together and row in more or less the same direction.  Maybe we will have a dystopian future as depicted in shows The Walking Dead or The 100 where humans could come together to deal with the challenges but, instead, continue to expend all of their energy fighting each other.
 I think its going to be a meet in the middle for awhile. Just like recycling. Living in the city meant going to a recycling center when it first became an option. Now here in SO we get pick ups twice a month. Judging by my street we all recycle. Some will be resistant until their AC doesn't work but there are enough people who will be motivated.
The catch is that while its appealing to pass a bill and pass it on to the government, we all have to make those personal changes which actually make you feel empowered.
I did a check online with PSE& G to get tips on saving energy, and rigged up some ridiculous clothes line from my iron arbor to a weighted aluminum ladder. Pretty funny but I hung my wash outside. I'm playing a little game seeing how much water gas and electric I can save. Almost looking forward to my utility bills.
Of course slowly switching to a plant based diet saves the planet and screws the pharma companies by limiting the sale of their drugs.
I'm going to start a thread with some vegan recipes. I'm no chef but I've been at this for most of my life so, I might know of a few products or cookbooks that get the ball rolling. Hopefully someone will add to the food portion because honesty I'm not a huge fan of spending too much time in the kitchen.

there is no amount of personal behavior change that will even begin to make a shadow of a dent in solving the problem.

You might as well be profligate and enjoy the party as we fry rather than feel guilty about it.


How often has the end of the World been predicted?

Morganna said:
 I like your mom already. 

Really?

 

nan said:
  She kind of smiled because she's 88 and it makes her happy to see that others will be miserable after she is gone.  


I feel badly for my 2 kids and the world they're inheriting. How can they be optimistic? How can they look forward to a wonderful future of work, family, travel, health, kids when they hear everyday that they're doomed?  I'm too embarrassed and shamed to bring it up with them.


I’m going north.   Setting aside climate change, good luck getting to work or selling your house if one of the tunnels becomes unusable.   


I’m still waiting for the Ice Age they promised back in the 80s.


Robert_Casotto said:
I’m still waiting for the Ice Age they promised back in the 80s.

 You would be.


Robert_Casotto said:
I’m still waiting for the Ice Age they promised back in the 80s.

 I do remember there was an In Search Of episode on that, with Leonard Nimoy. That was late 70s I think.

But, uh, I think there’s just a wee bit more science behind the current prognostication.


just like there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no climate change deniers in low-lying coastal areas. 

Miami Beach Taking Climate Change, Rising Sea Levels Very Seriously


One of my Geology professors in college back in the 80s was fond of saying we are 10,000 years overdue for another ice age, but it seems extremely unlikely to happen now.  We will drown before we freeze.


I remember seeing something on Nova about the current warming causing an ice age. It had something to do with the fresh water from the arctic changing or stopping the Gulf Stream. 


STANV said:

 I was referring to this aspect of her mom.

"She also thinks Kamala Harris can beat Trump, but she gets all her political news from MSNBC so I don't take her very seriously there.  When it comes to science she digs deep and reads a lot and actually knows how to fly a spaceship and lots of scientific terms I don't understand.  So there is a chance she actually knows enough to be right about the end of the world as we know it. So I found that kind of unnerving."

Also, I get this part because my Dad was not an optimist:

"My mother says we are already past the point of no return.  When I saw her on Mother's Day and I tried to talk to her about the Green New Deal, she said that she thinks it is too late and we are all doomed". 

The suggestion that she does it because she is 88 and doesn't care if we all die, is apparently nan's interpretation, maybe true but I heard cynicism from my Dad all my life, and was convinced it was for show. He couldn't have loved a wide eyed optimistic child if it was real.


drummerboy said:
there is no amount of personal behavior change that will even begin to make a shadow of a dent in solving the problem.
You might as well be profligate and enjoy the party as we fry rather than feel guilty about it.

 I don't believe for one minute that you believe that, oh yee of the electric car thread. So I'll give you a portion of my yard to plant the tomatoes that you so yearn for, I've got basilico for pesto, rosemary and room for more crops and solar panels and I'm 2 blocks from the WO border.

We can lobby our politicians on transportation, but for factory farming to reduce the greenhouse gasses we are forced to slow down the demand.

Of course partying to the end is appealing to me, but not if I can't use my AC.


Morganna said:


drummerboy said:
there is no amount of personal behavior change that will even begin to make a shadow of a dent in solving the problem.
You might as well be profligate and enjoy the party as we fry rather than feel guilty about it.
 I don't believe for one minute that you believe that, oh yee of the electric car thread. So I'll give you a portion of my yard to plant the tomatoes that so yearn for, I've got basilico for pesto, rosemary and room for more crops and solar panels and I'm 2 blocks from the WO border.
We can lobby our politicians on transportation, but for factory farming to reduce the greenhouse gasses we are forced to slow down the demand.
Of course partying to the end is appealing to me, but not if I can't use my AC.

I absolutely believe that. Personal sacrifice is useless and is just a way for people to assuage their guilt. Talk to me about the uselessness of recycling someday.


cars and electricity generation are the big culprits in creating greenhouse gases. Agriculture is only responsible for 9% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions according to the EPA. We need big systemic change to solve this problem. Individuals using LED bulbs and taking mass transit to work isn’t going to make a dent until we have clean sources of electricity and we phase out the internal combustion engine. 

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions


I highly recommend this Twitter feed to follow exciting developments in climate action in science, business and government policy:

https://twitter.com/mzjacobson



drummerboy said:

I absolutely believe that. Personal sacrifice is useless and is just a way for people to assuage their guilt. Talk to me about the uselessness of recycling someday.


So, you are telling me that if we all gave up discretionary air travel and ate meat only once per week that it would make no difference?


tjohn said:


drummerboy said:I absolutely believe that. Personal sacrifice is useless and is just a way for people to assuage their guilt. Talk to me about the uselessness of recycling someday.

So, you are telling me that if we all gave up discretionary air travel and ate meat only once per week that it would make no difference?

 who is "we"? The entire planet?


ml1 said:
cars and electricity generation are the big culprits in creating greenhouse gases. Agriculture is only responsible for 9% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions according to the EPA. We need big systemic change to solve this problem. Individuals using LED bulbs and taking mass transit to work isn’t going to make a dent until we have clean sources of electricity and we phase out the internal combustion engine. 
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions

We should probably look at this globally, and not just for the US, but that aside I am not sure I follow you. You are saying transportation (cars etc.) and electricity (lights etc) are the main culprits. But then you say it is useless if people abandon cars and use more efficient lighting. By your own account these are the two biggest contributors to global warming so why would it not help if people reduce those. That is like saying democracy is very important but I don't recommend individual people to vote because it is useless until we have better candidates.


basil said:


ml1 said:
cars and electricity generation are the big culprits in creating greenhouse gases. Agriculture is only responsible for 9% of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions according to the EPA. We need big systemic change to solve this problem. Individuals using LED bulbs and taking mass transit to work isn’t going to make a dent until we have clean sources of electricity and we phase out the internal combustion engine. 
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
We should probably look at this globally, and not just for the US, but that aside I am not sure I follow you. You are saying transportation (cars etc.) and electricity (lights etc) are the main culprits. But then you say it is useless if people abandon cars and use more efficient lighting. By your own account these are the two biggest contributors to global warming so why would it not help if people reduce those. That is like saying democracy is very important but I don't recommend individual people to vote because it is useless until we have better candidates.

because you will never, ever get the critical mass of participation needed to make any difference.

ever.


drummerboy said:
because you will never, ever get the critical mass of participation needed to make any difference.
ever.

I disagree, any participation makes a difference, however small it is. And it can grow, for example consumers can start to influence corporate policy, voters can start to influence local / state / federal law, etc. If you are not willing to do this yourself, nobody will ever take you seriously when trying to influence national policy.


Robert_Casotto said:
I’m still waiting for the Ice Age they promised back in the 80s.

 You're in luck. The first one was in 2002, there have been 4 more since then.


basil said:
We should probably look at this globally, and not just for the US, but that aside I am not sure I follow you. You are saying transportation (cars etc.) and electricity (lights etc) are the main culprits. But then you say it is useless if people abandon cars and use more efficient lighting. By your own account these are the two biggest contributors to global warming so why would it not help if people reduce those. That is like saying democracy is very important but I don't recommend individual people to vote because it is useless until we have better candidates.

 no, I'm saying that the few people who can take mass transit aren't going to make a difference.  And if we've still got coal and natural gas producing our electricity, using LED bulbs or buying an electric car isn't going to make a difference.

This is not a problem that is solvable by individual effort.   It's going to take commitments at the national level from our government to change the way we produce and consume energy.


Every country that matters (major CO2 emitters) is starting to feel the effects of climate change.  I think we will start to see increasingly serious efforts to do something about the problem.

I, for one, an not going to sit back and tell me kids we are doomed.  It going to be bad, but maybe I still have some faith in human ingenuity.

What kind of people we will be on the other side, I do not know.  And I say this because I think we will have to do some terrible things to survive in the form of letting millions is poorer countries die.


In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.