Teaching Slavery at South Mountain, Jefferson also involved in poor implementation of teaching the subject.

MrSuburbs said:

tjohn,




Every documentary of history ever made is a re-enactment. I only commented on rape and castration because someone (forgot who at the moment) used them as examples (in an attempt to be extreme) of unacceptable attempts to teach slavery. I was trying to show them their attempt to show unacceptable ways can be acceptable in the right circumstances.

Not in any way a comparison but look at some of the "stop smoking" cigarette commercials; a person could say "I don't need to see amputations, here wheezing and see tubes or holes in a person's throat to know I shouldn't smoke".

Maybe not but it does get the point across.

I remember some people talking about how realistic they thought the D-Day scenes of Saving Private Ryan were. Of course, unless you have ever been in a situation like that, there is simply no imagining what it would be like. I have heard bullets cracking as they go by and I have heard the sound of heavy weapons - both are absent from movies. But I have never come close to the final ingredient where those weapons have been directed at me. So, to me there is nothing in a war movie that could possibly convey the reality.

Re-enactments of awful events in our schools are just entertainment devoid of teaching value. And when the topic is slavery, you add in a lot of additional ingredients that reduce it to a sideshow.

tjohn,

And yet here we are talking about it, bridge building in a way that could bring people together. No matter how you may agree or disagree with anything I've said, you still managed to continue discussing the topic.

MrSuburbs said:

And yet here we are talking about it, bridge building in a way that could bring people together.

This teachable moment exists due to the admission that a mistake was made, and attempting to address it.

Continuing to make the same mistake loses any productive value, and just makes people think you are being a jerk on purpose.

Oh boy, ok sprout, how am I being a jerk? What mistake do I continue to make?

I was referring to teachers continuing to include inappropriate re-enactments in the classroom.

But since you asked, other than posting for shock-value, I wouldn't know.

sprout,

posters have tried over and over to post something they feel is too "over the top" to include as appropriate re-enactments for the classroom. I have posted that none of those "over the top" examples are lies, they all actually happened based on documented history. My point being, we may disagree on what is acceptable or unacceptable but it all comes down to our opinion. Some may view it differently. While no one is agreeing with me on this chat, I'm sure there are some who do or the incidents would've caused more of an outrage.

Actually, other than this thread, who else is talking about it in our community?

MrSuburbs said:

Actually, other than this thread, who else is talking about it in our community?

Nice segue:

SOMSD Town Hall Flyer

SOMSD TOWN HALL ON EQUITY AND INCLUSION

Focusing on Recent Events within the District and Our Collective Response

• Superintendent Dr. John Ramos will share an overview of recent events, ongoing work, and purpose of the evening.
• Special Presentation by Professor Khalil Gibran Muhammad – Professor of History, Race & Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School; and South Orange Resident, South Mountain/Columbia HS Parent.
• Panel Discussion including Dr. Khyati Joshi – SOMSD’s Anti-Bias consultant and Associate Professor of Education at Fairleigh Dickinson University – who will share ongoing cultural competency work within the district.
• Followed by Small Group Discussions on How Schools, Families, and Community Can Work Together.
• Opportunity to share insights and recommendations from the small group discussions.

Free Childcare Available—Ages 3 & up ~ Columbia HS Faculty Dining Room

I truly wish I knew of this. If not for a previous engagement, I would be there.

MrSuburbs said:

sprout,

posters have tried over and over to post something they feel is too "over the top" to include as appropriate re-enactments for the classroom. I have posted that none of those "over the top" examples are lies, they all actually happened based on documented history. My point being, we may disagree on what is acceptable or unacceptable but it all comes down to our opinion. Some may view it differently. While no one is agreeing with me on this chat, I'm sure there are some who do or the incidents would've caused more of an outrage.

Actually, other than this thread, who else is talking about it in our community?

Enough already. You're just doing service to the community huh?

Bullsiht.

"Rape can also be used as a learning tool as to the different shades of African Americans. Castration to the pride and protection many African American males have to their genitals. Of course this would be leaning more towards a psychological conversation for more educated minds ... Which is why I think those two examples would better be understood by older students."

This is your well thought out perspective on what might be learned by students discussing rape and castration? If there was an iota of historical 'scholarship' involved with the 'lesson' you're suggesting, any 'psychological conversation' would center on the mindset and intent of the people guilty of the raping and the castrating and not the effect (real or imagined) those crimes have on the population who suffered at the hands of these criminals. "The pride and protection many African American males have to their genitals", WTF are you even talking about? Older students would learn that their 21st century African American classmates have a special fondness for their genitals because of historical castration?!

Why not make an informed contribution to the thread instead of working through whatever crap it is you're working through.

flimbro,

I gave an example of how those two difficult subjects can be used for something positive. Are there better examples? Maybe. I'm showing even something as horrific as rape and castration can be used to get something positive out of them.

And yes, I do give service to the community.

MrSuburbs said:

flimbro,

I gave an example of how those two difficult subjects can be used for something positive. Are there better examples? Maybe. I'm showing even something as horrific as rape and castration can be used to get something positive out of them.

And yes, I do give service to the community.

Yes, you explained that castration accounts for "The pride and protection many African American males have to their genitals".

This may be the most bizarre thing I have ever read on MOL.

I've only ever met two people in real life who thought this topic was ripe for such jokes (and also insisted that they were not joking). Interestingly, they both seemed to be working through issues of having a condition that produced unusually small (nearly non-existent) bicep muscles.

MrSuburbs said:

flimbro,

I gave an example of how those two difficult subjects can be used for something positive. Are there better examples? Maybe. I'm showing even something as horrific as rape and castration can be used to get something positive out of them.

And yes, I do give service to the community.

MrSuburbs,

I'm well aware of what you're doing. I've simply taken the opportunity to use your post as a jumping off point of sorts to make a point of my own about what passes for 'history' in our schools- and what doesn't. Well meaning teachers and administrators reduce slavery to a study of what happened to Black Americans. In doing so they ignore the larger picture, I referred to this as the 'why' in an earlier post. Most curriculums never broach the subject of why slavery was permitted to flourish and by whom. They don't discuss the character of the individuals involved in the slave trade and the repositioning/abandonment of faith and morals required to participate in such a demonic institution.

For the most part, our study of slavery is akin to focusing on the size and number of bruises on someone who has been assaulted instead of examining the motivations, intent and benefit derived by the person who is guilty of the actual assault.

I understand why the curriculum is designed this way. These are difficult discussions about horrible times and no one in their right mind would want to be connected to them in any way. This is why so much of our history is myth and one sided myth at that. Teachers who look to explain the period by concentrating on the enslaved and slave auctions or posters only guarantee that their students will find the life of a slave abhorrent. If they expanded their curriculum to include the owners of the enslaved, the traders and the lower middle class whites whose lives were intertwined with the enslaved- they'd provide a much more realistic history of this country and by doing so explain much of what we experience today when it comes to race relations.

And then of course there's your ignorant and vulgar approach championed by the ignorant and vulgar. That, of course is an option as well.

flimbro said:


They don't discuss the character of the individuals involved in the slave trade and the repositioning/abandonment of faith and morals required to participate in such a demonic institution.

Flimbro,

If we start teaching people about the moral contortions required to justify slavery, they might start to ask too many questions. Why, they might start to question the character of our present day government.

flimbro,

I do agree with this:

(teachers and administrators reduce slavery to a study of what happened to Black Americans.)

As far as "most curriculums not broaching on why slavery was permitted to flourish", grammar school students have no knowledge on profit margin of labor and wages, especially with human lives. Therefore, I believe that too is a topic which is best presented to older students.

Other than that, everything you said proves my point; ALL YOUR OPINION. You have no idea who I am nor do I you. You and others are forming an opinion of me based on how you perceive my posts (and an unflattering one at that).

MrSuburbs said:

flimbro,

I do agree with this:

(teachers and administrators reduce slavery to a study of what happened to Black Americans.)

As far as "most curriculums not broaching on why slavery was permitted to flourish", grammar school students have no knowledge on profit margin of labor and wages, especially with human lives. Therefore, I believe that too is a topic which is best presented to older students.

Other than that, everything you said proves my point; ALL YOUR OPINION. You have no idea who I am nor do I you. You and others are forming an opinion of me based on how you perceive my posts (and an unflattering one at that).

When you say something like "castration accounts for "The pride and protection many African American males have to their genitals", how do you expect people to perceive you.

tjohn,

there's a book called The Isis Papers by Francis Cress Welsing. I know of more but that's one place you can start and then ask yourself how you perceive my comment about castration.

MrSuburbs said:

You and others are forming an opinion of me based on how you perceive my posts.

Yes, your posts continue to joke about slavery and stereotypes about genitalia. You continue to pretend you are not joking. And you turn a serious thread into something all about you.

You you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you..

Telling someone to read a book then respond is not a great counter argument - an article perhaps.

jamie said:

Telling someone to read a book then respond is not a great counter argument - an article perhaps.

A quick Google of Francis Cress Welsing will tell you that she put forth controversial ideas - some worthy of consideration and some that are pretty far out there.

MrSuburbs said:

tjohn,

there's a book called The Isis Papers by Francis Cress Welsing. I know of more but that's one place you can start and then ask yourself how you perceive my comment about castration.

I'm aware of Dr. Welsing's books and papers- I own several. I also had the opportunity to interview her a couple of times before she passed. I think some of her work is brilliant and some much less than. In general, with regard to the enslavement of Africans I don't think enough scholarship is dedicated to the role and responsibility of white America. I don't say this to delegitimize Dr. Welsing's work but to say that a large portion of it must be considered along with other material. Having said that, I think your distillation of some of her ideas is naive and cartoonish.

MrSuburbs said:

flimbro,

I do agree with this:

(teachers and administrators reduce slavery to a study of what happened to Black Americans.)

As far as "most curriculums not broaching on why slavery was permitted to flourish", grammar school students have no knowledge on profit margin of labor and wages, especially with human lives. Therefore, I believe that too is a topic which is best presented to older students.

Other than that, everything you said proves my point; ALL YOUR OPINION. You have no idea who I am nor do I you. You and others are forming an opinion of me based on how you perceive my posts (and an unflattering one at that).

Who you actually are is irrelevant online. Here you present a face with every word you type and invite others to judge you on the basis of those words. If I've mischaracterized you- speak up for yourself and correct me. I considered what you wrote about genitals to be a vulgar, small-minded distraction that missed a far larger more important point. I considered your comment about skin color to be equally as distracting and ignorant. Africans come in all colors, shapes and sizes and have for thousands upon thousands of years. Suggesting that the beautiful range of colors of African Americans today is solely a product of rape is regressive and only serves to perpetuate the idea that an entire population is based on an immoral act. That perspective may be inviting as well as politically expedient for some but for others who know better, it may just be another attempt to denigrate African Americans and shift attention away from the actual culprits - the rapists.

And with that I'm done with your distraction.

flimbro,

Of all the Africans that were bought here, most of them from west Africa, they all had dark skin. Now as you go further north into Africa and even into areas some considfer the Middle East, the skin tone does get lighter but again, the majority of Africans bought to America came from dark-skinned African countries. So yes, I do stand behind my comment that the majority of change in skin color of blacks here in America is due to sex with different races. Native Americans included.

For those others "who know better", what proof do you have otherwise? A recessive gene in black people?

sprout,

People are responding to me. I'm not making this about me.

And writing almost four lines of the word "you"? What value did that add?

You you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you.

MrSuburbs:
>>>I only commented on rape and castration because someone (forgot who at the moment) used them as examples (in an attempt to be extreme).

As I was the original author that you are referring to, I will respond by noting that I did not cite those examples "in an attempt to be extreme". I cited them to illustrate the contrast between how those aspects of the institution of slavery are treated vs. "slave auctions", specifically asking by what logic "mock" slave auctions were considered acceptable and the other examples were not. I then concluded by saying:

" By the fact that somehow "slave" auctions are sanitized so that they aren't "as bad" and therefore acceptable - which aligns with my original point about the subjugation and suffering of Black people in this country being sanitized and trivialized - then "mock" slave auctions do indeed "mock" how absolutely horribly brutal and evil slavery was. "

I believe that "slave auctions" were "extreme" as well, for the record.

flimbro wrote:
"Most curriculums never broach the subject of why slavery was permitted to flourish and by whom. They don't discuss the character of the individuals involved in the slave trade and the repositioning/abandonment of faith and morals required to participate in such a demonic institution."

This is another crucial point. Absent this, by selectively only including bits and pieces of the full narrative, not even half of the story is told and a skewed understanding is the result, and subsequent discussions are incomplete and misleading, at best. E.g., IF someone states that "Castration (can be used as a learning tool) as to the pride and protection many African American males have to their genitals.....better be understood by older students", then they should also equally state at the same time that it could be used as a learning tool to discuss the psyche of "...many European American males" as well. To discuss the full narrative and apply logic consistently would require this.

I agree with your latter point marlon 4x and stand corrected on your examples.

What does 4x mean?

>>What does 4x mean?

Nothing in particular. As you may remember, in the early days of e-mail, it was often hard to claim one's first choice of e-mail name, because it was usually taken. As a result, it was common that people would add numbers and letters to find something unique that wasn't taken. So people would end up with e-mail addresses such as "johndoe7890@aol.com". I like the number "4", so I tried "marlon4", but it was already taken. So I just tried adding an "x" and it was available, hence "marlon4x". Since then, I've often used that in different places because it's easy to remember.

marlon4x,

Thank you for the clarification.

Meanwhile while this got very wide coverage, an assignment in upstate NY for students to "pretend they were members of Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Party in order to argue for or against the Holocaust’s Final Solution" got much less coverage.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/n...

It should have. There are no words to describe just how....indefensively wrong-minded this is.

The quote attributed to ADL NY Director Evan Bernstein in that article regarding that project articulates the same point that I made:

" The notion that students were asked to engage in such thinking trivializes the horrific experiences of the victims... "